1. #1
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    Default how many engines,trucks, and rescues per call?

    I'm trying to write and update SOG's for four fire departments and I'm looking to see how many engines companies, truck companies, tankers and rescues to be in the first assignment. All areas are rural districts, mostly one and two story houses under 2500 sq. ft. 90% of water supply is tanker shuttle. Two of the fire departments are very progressive and believe in having at least four apparatus plus tankers. The other two really arenít big on having more than just one engine because they donít want to have extras in the way and donít see a need for more than two 1 Ĺ hoses. But there open to change if I can show them how most other departments do it and the reason they do. So any suggestions and background would also help.

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    First alarm assignment for my department is 2 engines, 1 rescue, 2 tankers, 1 tanker asked to stand by at their station, 1 truck company, 1 BLS rig and my department's QRV to assist with rehab. We usually get someone on scene as the first rig is going en route so if it turns out to be nothing everyone is canceled or told to hold at their location, but if it is a working fire we have enough manpower assembling to get the fire under control quickly. Also depending on the location the tanker that normally stands by at station will be called into the scene. Any questions about this feel free to ask.
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    We are a mix of urban, suburban and rural in the county. For a report of a structure fire, 4 engines and a battalion Chief are assigned. If a battalion has a truck company, it replaces an engine company making it 3 engines, 1 truck and a BC. If it is looking like a working structure fire (from reports), 6 engines(or 5 engines and a truck), a breathing support and a BC are dispatched. Some of our cities also have paramedic ambulances and 1 is also dispatched. Water tenders can be requested by the incident commander but depending on the situation, we usually have engine companies shuttling water if there isn't a close water source.

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    At work we get 2 Engines, 1 Truck, and a Medic Unit on the first alarm.

    At the vollie house for a hydranted area we get:

    3 Engines (1 Auto Aid), 2 Trucks (One Auto Aid), 1 Rescue Squad, 1 Medic Unit and 3 Chiefs.

    Non hydranted we get:

    4 Engines (2 Auto Aid), 1 Truck, 1 Rescue Squad, 3 Tankers, 1 Medic, and 3 Chiefs. But usually calls will go out for additional tanker as soon as the first due engine goes enroute so its usually closer to 5 tankers.

    At work our department covers roughly 20 square miles with a population of about 30,000 people. Mostly residential and commercial suburban America.

    At the vollie house we cover approximately 45 square miles with a first due population of about 15,000 and a second due population of around 20,000. Our response area is a very diverse area of heavy industrial, million dollar homes on golf courses, farms, subdivisions, and shopping centers.

    Minimum manning both places is 3 per rig. 2 on the Medic Unit.
    Last edited by backsteprescue123; 07-18-2011 at 02:20 PM.
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    Default Rural Response

    We cover Urban and quite rural areas in about 100 sq mi coverage. Standard response for houses or camps would be 3 engines, tanker, heavy rescue, and a brush/utility vehicle. In some areas it would get a second tanker on an automatic MA. Quint is held (80,000 lbs) unless requested by the I.C.

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    In the boro - (Hydranted) - 2 engines, truck, rescue, MICU. Out of the boro gets an additional engine and 2 tankers.

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    Area 450 Square Miles, Population 850,000, Water System is Great or non-existant. Mix of full time and Volunteers.

    49 Stations, 89 Engines, 24 Trucks, 11 Heavy Rescues, 65 ALS or BLS Ambulances, 4 Tankers, 8 Brush Rigs, Lotta Special Purpose stuff......

    Structure Fire Response is 4 Engines, 2 Trucks, A Heavy Rescue, and a Few Chiefs in all areas. If the call is in a Non- Hydrant Area, 2 Tankers are added, along with a Dedicated Water Supply Company.

    This the Auto Aid capital of the Universe, so Apparatus is dispatched on the basis of who/what is closest to the call without regard to jurisdictional boundaries. For instance, we have "First Due" responsibilities inside the City Limits of an adjoining city. In fact, half of the apparatus on the running assignments in that area comes from outside the city. How does the City feel about this?? Doesn't make any difference, since by law, they have no say in the matter. Political Subdivisions below the County level such as Cities, Towns, etc, have nothing to do with Fire/Rescue/EMS protection........
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    House fire in a non-hydranted area (which is most of our first due) gets 4 engines, 1 truck, 1 heavy rescue squad, 2 tankers, 1 ambulance and a duty chief.

    A working fire dispatch gets and additional 2 engines, 1 special service (rescue squad or truck), 1 tanker, 1 ambulance and a medic (ALS) unit.

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    LA Property Insurance requires 2 engines, a tanker and a service truck for a residental response and I beleive, an additional tanker for a commercial response.

    Combo department runs from 6 stations covering about 170 square miles, with one manned with 2-5 career staff depending on time of the day and the other 5 are volunteer. Light to meduim density surburban with some commercial buildings (Supermarket, "small box" stores and a few strip malls) in one corner but primarily rural with limited water sources.

    We also have 2 engines and a brush truck available to us for use in the district from a station on a National Gurad/LA Department of the Military facility we cover under contract. The facility adds another 26 square miles to our response area.

    On my combo department we attempt to respond to all incidents with 3 engines, with at least one of them being a 3000g tanker-pumper, the 3000g tanker and the heavy rescue. For a commercial non-hydranted response we will also roll the 6,000g tractor-trailer tanker.

    Initial brush response is 2 engines, a tanker and at least one of the 2 brush trucks.

    Intiail MVA response is one engine and the rescue. Interstate runs gets a second rescue-engine going the opposite reported direction of travel.

    Volunteer department is almost all rural water except for the core of the village. We cover about 150 square miles from 5 stations with 14 members. At this time gets a minimum of our attack engine, 2 1500g engine-tankers (one responding is more common than the 2) and one 5.000g tanker as well as a service/brush truck as the last piece out if manpower is available to roll it. We have just placed a donated 1993 engine on line with a built in educator system and a 35g foam tank that we will likley partially or fully fill with Class A foam and run on all reported structure and brush fires.

    In addition, due to our low staffing at this time we are very close to implementing an automatic mutual aid plan that will be bring us 2 additional engines and 2 additional tankers (3 to commercial fires) to all reported structure fires in the district.

    We do have a 2nd 5,000g tanker that due to age and mechanical issues, is rarely rolled. It does get on the air twice a year, and is promptly cancelled so that it can be utilzed in the water shuttle formula.

    Brush fires get a minimum of 2 engines and the brush/service truck. A new brush truck is currently being purchased and likely both brush trucks will run once the 2nd rig is placed into service.

    MVA gets an engine as a mutual aid department handles extrication.

    Automatic mutual aid is a tricky deal in LA as giving auto mutual aid can take points away from you come rating time if your auto mutual aid responses wxceed a specified percentage of your structural runs. You get no credit for recieving automatic mutual aid.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-18-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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    **Note** An engine, truck, or heavy rescue here do not respond unless if they have minimum staffing of driver, officer, and two FF's. The Officer and FF's must be SCBA qualified. If any more show up and get on, bonus!!
    Any apparatus that does not have this minimum staffing gets automatically replaced with the next due units listed on the box card.

    Residential: Tactical Box, 2 engines, 2 trucks and a squad or rescue company. If it's a job, upgraded with another engine, a RIT truck company, and a medic unit.

    Commercial: Box assignment. 4 engines, 2 trucks, and a heavy rescue. See above for working fire.
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    We don't necessarily think in terms of specific apparatus here. Rather than dispatch an engine from here, a tanker from there, and a truck from someplace else, we get dispatched by department, and those responses are more or less set up by the home department.

    Thus for a structure dispatch in my district, we'll see ourselves and two other departments dispatched. That could potentially yield three engines, three to four tankers, two medium and one light rescue, and a truck. Or not, depending on the time of day. What rolls first is usually a judgement call, depending on whether an engine or a tanker is going to be more valuable at the outset.

    Since most of the departments in this area are still running commercial two-door cabs, any given apparatus won't show up as a "complete" company.

    Most departments have second and third alarms set up in the CAD, and those tend to be set up with more specific apparatus, depending on whether it's a rural area or a built up area with hydrants.

    Because such decisions rest with the home department, the county has no say. Thus some departments have a full gamut of alarms, others prefer to "wait and see what we've got..."

    Dispatching by specific apparatus would be a major paradigm shift for our dispatchers (as well as the firefighters), who are used to simply toning out a department and either assuming they know what to send, or wait until they are asked.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    I'm trying to write and update SOG's for four fire departments and I'm looking to see how many engines companies, truck companies, tankers and rescues to be in the first assignment. All areas are rural districts, mostly one and two story houses under 2500 sq. ft. 90% of water supply is tanker shuttle. Two of the fire departments are very progressive and believe in having at least four apparatus plus tankers. The other two really arenít big on having more than just one engine because they donít want to have extras in the way and donít see a need for more than two 1 Ĺ hoses. But there open to change if I can show them how most other departments do it and the reason they do. So any suggestions and background would also help.
    Without knowing the actual details of the area involved and without access to hydrants typically, apparatus wise, I'd think you should have at least 3 engines on a structural assignment - 1 for attack, 1 for a fill site (assuming your system necessitates using an engine to refill the tankers) and possibly 1 for the dump site to draft and supply the attack engine if the attack pumper isn't filling that role. At least 1 truck is good. A rescue probably wouldn't be essential from an apparatus standpoint. As for tankers, I'd say at least 4 depending on their capacity and other considerations.

    However, one point that I don't think has been mentioned - what's the staffing? That's going to be a factor in determining an appropriate response. If you send 3E, 1T, 1R and 4 Tankers to a fire, but only get a dozen or so FFs on average, then there's a good chance that you may need to add additional apparatus to the response in order to get sufficient manpower.

    For the most part, apparatus and staffing have to be considered together when trying to determine the right response to any incident. One without the other will tend to leave you in an unfavorable position.

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    Previous department in NW Vermont had a well developed AMA system where we also got 2-3 additional departments, each with a specified piece, on all first alarm assignments.

    As arule, there was also a cew avaialble at thier stations for a second piece to roll on the first alarm if the home department thought it a wise idea based on the intial report(s).

    AS I said above, the rating system in LA actually punishes you for AMA as compared to rewarding it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Without knowing the actual details of the area involved and without access to hydrants typically, apparatus wise, I'd think you should have at least 3 engines on a structural assignment - 1 for attack, 1 for a fill site (assuming your system necessitates using an engine to refill the tankers) and possibly 1 for the dump site to draft and supply the attack engine if the attack pumper isn't filling that role. At least 1 truck is good. A rescue probably wouldn't be essential from an apparatus standpoint. As for tankers, I'd say at least 4 depending on their capacity and other considerations.

    However, one point that I don't think has been mentioned - what's the staffing? That's going to be a factor in determining an appropriate response. If you send 3E, 1T, 1R and 4 Tankers to a fire, but only get a dozen or so FFs on average, then there's a good chance that you may need to add additional apparatus to the response in order to get sufficient manpower.

    For the most part, apparatus and staffing have to be considered together when trying to determine the right response to any incident. One without the other will tend to leave you in an unfavorable position.
    This is a big part of the equation.

    AS an example, when I was designing the AMA run cards that we are implementing for my VFD, I actually had to be very carefully in assigning departments on the card as some can provide us with manpower, while others are primarily juniors and older, non-interior members that could only supply me with tankers and supply pumpers.

    I acutally had to go out of the parish on several occasions to get manpower on the alarms.
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    Combo department with limited staffing. We only cover about 11 sq miles mostly one or two story residentials less then 2500 sq ft. We have 3 man shifts (weekends it is 2 normally).

    Structure fire we get one engine with our three guys, and one engine from a mutual aid (structue fires only) with two guys. We get a EMS unit dispatched from the city. Other then that we call what we need, and often times we don't need much more then that. With our area being so small we can be on scene of a working fire under 5 minutes after its dispatched (2-3 mins after going in route). In my 3 years here we have never had to go defensvie on a residential structure fire. And the majority of them have been contained to room in contents.

    We have had a few business fires and for that we get our engine and one engine (2 guys) from another volly department, we generally call for a ladder depending on comments.

    Its a call them as you need them department, I dont like it but its what we got

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    Manpower is part of the issue. Most of the apparatus will only be staffed with one or two firefighters, But we usualy have 4 or 5 show up POV. My personal goal is to have at least 12 firefighters on 1st alarm. Right now we avg 6 to 8. I would like to see 4 engines ( one engine would be assigned truck work) and 4 tankers. With anything extra available as a bonus. This would give two engine at the structure (one can operate as a truck) one engine for the water fill site and one engine for manpower and or we have long driveway at times and we have to set up the dump site at the road and pump up to the house.
    One of the big issues I'm trying to correct is the idea of one department with only one engine using the "wait and see" tactic to see what else is needed. with a average responce time of over 15 minutes in rural areas doing this usually means you put out a foundation becuase it took to long for backup to arrive. If the auto aid engines are already inroute they usually will arrive with in 5 to 7 minutes of the home department, not 20 minutes after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eng34FF View Post
    House fire in a non-hydranted area (which is most of our first due) gets 4 engines, 1 truck, 1 heavy rescue squad, 2 tankers, 1 ambulance and a duty chief.

    A working fire dispatch gets and additional 2 engines, 1 special service (rescue squad or truck), 1 tanker, 1 ambulance and a medic (ALS) unit.
    Adding the manpower piece to this, minimum staffing for engine, squad or truck is 3, staffing for the ambulance is 2 and min staffing for the tankers is 1. Apparatus with less than mimium staffing may be replaced at request of the IC.

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    Cool Fire Response

    F/S: (2) Medic Engines, Truck (Quint) and the D.O. Confirmed working brings Mutual Aid (M/U) Unit to cover or to the scene.

    F/V: (1) Engine or the Truck, depending on whose area it is.

    F/G: (2) Brush Engines, (1) Water Tender and the D.O. BLM full response if needed. Extended work brings M/U to cover.

    F/C: (2) Medic Engines, Truck and the D.O. Confirmed working brings what the I.C. calls for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    I'm trying to write and update SOG's for four fire departments and I'm looking to see how many engines companies, truck companies, tankers and rescues to be in the first assignment. All areas are rural districts, mostly one and two story houses under 2500 sq. ft. 90% of water supply is tanker shuttle. Two of the fire departments are very progressive and believe in having at least four apparatus plus tankers. The other two really arenít big on having more than just one engine because they donít want to have extras in the way and donít see a need for more than two 1 Ĺ hoses. But there open to change if I can show them how most other departments do it and the reason they do. So any suggestions and background would also help.
    Structure fire= 3 engines, 4 tankers, Rescue squad with a cascade on board, 1 Ambulance, If it is a remote area we send a draft truck.

    As far as the depts that don't want any more than 1 engine, what do they do if the engine breaks down on scene? You have to allow for that to happen. For us, any time we go inside the 2nd in engine hooks 2 3 inch lines to the attack engine. So if something happens all you have to do is open the intake and the 2nd engine can pump right through the down engine.

    That way water can be restored in less than a minute.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Apples/oranges
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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    The other two really arenít big on having more than just one engine because they donít want to have extras in the way and donít see a need for more than two 1 Ĺ hoses. But there open to change if I can show them how most other departments do it and the reason they do. So any suggestions and background would also help.
    Explain to them that if there are people getting in the way to stop sending the Chiefs.

    Problem solved.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by memphise34a View Post
    explain to them that if there are people getting in the way to stop sending the chiefs.

    Problem solved.


    rotflmao !!!.............
    Last edited by hwoods; 07-18-2011 at 11:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Explain to them that if there are people getting in the way to stop sending the Chiefs.

    Problem solved.
    Works every time!


    We're similar to Tree68. We get dispatched to a fire, and it's a full station response- 2 engines and a quint, plus a squad/utility. We also get Auto aid from two of our 3 closest neighbors- usually an engine and a rescue, plus an engine. The other neighbor usually fills in on receipt of a "working fire". The local combo ambulance is also toned out for a rig, and usually the ALS tech, too. So, assuming drivers for all:

    3-4 engines, 1 truck, 1 rescue, and 1 ambulance and fly car. Plus whatever Chiefs are available. ( most depts in our area will send a chief to all m/a requests as well as the requested apparatus.) For a single family res. Target hazards get another ladder plus- depending upon the individual pre-plan.

    You can always adjust as conditions demand. Smaller jobs will see 1 a/a dept diverted to fill in, and the other downsized to one engine, or cancelled/ stand by in quarters. (depending on the manpower situ that day) For Big jobs, you can simply request engines/ trucks, for example, and the ECD will tone out the closest available, or you can request specific depts/units.

    ALL of us are volunteer. Two of us have a daytime paid guy, and the ambulance has a paid day crew as well as a paid paramedic. So manpower varies widely... Of our three most frequent m/a partners, only one owns a ladder- so ours gets requested a lot. Crew cabs, mostly 6 man, are pretty standard here- though a couple of our neighbors have a rig with a 2 door cab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    I'm trying to write and update SOG's for four fire departments and I'm looking to see how many engines companies, truck companies, tankers and rescues to be in the first assignment. All areas are rural districts, mostly one and two story houses under 2500 sq. ft. 90% of water supply is tanker shuttle. Two of the fire departments are very progressive and believe in having at least four apparatus plus tankers. The other two really aren’t big on having more than just one engine because they don’t want to have extras in the way and don’t see a need for more than two 1 Ĺ hoses. But there open to change if I can show them how most other departments do it and the reason they do. So any suggestions and background would also help.
    So many variables... depends on what the alarm type is also....

    We don't do "box alarms" around here. Although, I think its a concept worth exploring. Expecting many VFD's to field a first alarm response during a weekday is asking for a lot in most parts of the country (except in Harve's neck of the woods!).

    I would look at what they do in the mid-west.

    Google "MABAS" and do some digging. They really have their stuff together out there.

    With all that said... we change our response depending on the water source (tanker or hydrant) and if it is a commercial/multi-family or single family dwelling.

    We have 3 engines, a ladder, a tender and a utility. See below for the order of response. All are rolling out of one firehouse.

    Single Family Dwelling (no hydrant) 3 engines>tender>ladder>utility
    SFD (hydrant) 3 engines>ladder>utility

    MultiFamily 1Engine>ladder>2 engines>utility
    Commercial (w/hydrant) same as above

    Of course, non-fire calls also get a slightly different response... etc.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 07-19-2011 at 12:25 AM.
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