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    Default thought for the day...

    "Bravery isn't being fearless.... it's doing the feared"
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    With a proper mix of training,experience,and proper application. T.C.

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    Thumbs up Yep!.........

    "And doing it INTERIOR"........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

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    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

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    NOW you've gone and done it! Hehe T.C,

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    I was in a class years ago when the topic of fear came up.

    I maintained that fear is born of ignorance. We fear what we don't know.

    Which leads directly into Francis X. Brannigan's well known pearl: "The building is your enemy, know your enemy." Not to mention adequate scene size-up and a host of other things we should be doing at every incident.

    Of course, we can't know it all - things have a funny way of hiding themselves.

    Unfortunately, I think some of the folks in that long-ago discussion thought I was calling them ignorant and the idea was dismissed out-of-hand.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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    Default Brannigan

    Tree68...He was Francis L. Brannigan and he was an expert in "Building Construction for the Fire Service." I had and read his book which was invaluable in the fire service and a must read for those who are in it.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
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    I am an aggressive interior firefighter. I expect that of people that want to call themselves firefighters. Obviously, training and experience tell us when to be more aggressive and when to back off.

    One thing I tell my students is it is perfectly normal to feel anxious, or perhaps even a little scared, when entering a building on fire. I also tell them that lessens with experience and training, but probably will never completely go away. Frankly, I think at times that anxiousness, or fear, allows us to take a second or so more to make good decisions, as long as it doesn't cause us to be unable to act at all.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Tree68...He was Francis L. Brannigan..
    My bad on the MI. Don't know where the X came from.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    "Bravery isn't being fearless.... it's doing the feared"
    Similar to:
    "A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer."
    -- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)

    Fear is not necessarily a bad thing. Biologically fear causes certain reactions that aid in survival. It is when fear causes panic and inaction where we run into problems. That's reduced by training and experience. Is is OK, and right to be afraid. Acknowledge the fear, and use it.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

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    I have always been told that Bravery is simply stepping up when others back down
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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    Pretty much sums it up. T.C.

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    Talking Easy...................

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    My bad on the MI. Don't know where the X came from.
    It's on your keyboard between the "Z" and the "C".........











































    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am an aggressive interior firefighter. I expect that of people that want to call themselves firefighters. Obviously, training and experience tell us when to be more aggressive and when to back off.

    One thing I tell my students is it is perfectly normal to feel anxious, or perhaps even a little scared, when entering a building on fire. I also tell them that lessens with experience and training, but probably will never completely go away. Frankly, I think at times that anxiousness, or fear, allows us to take a second or so more to make good decisions, as long as it doesn't cause us to be unable to act at all.
    Thats what sucks sometimes about working at a slower paced place, Not as much experience as the city gets.
    I have been doing this almost 5 years but there is still alot I have not seen. On top of that we don't have alot of older guys with lots of exp.

    Lack of working alot of fires makes me tend to be over cautious sometimes.
    Bring enough hose.

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    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important that fear."

    The chief at my first volunteer department told me that if you aren't even a little scared to be entering a structure fire, there is something wrong with you.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    - Firefighter 1 / HAZMAT Ops / EMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanK63 View Post
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important that fear."

    The chief at my first volunteer department told me that if you aren't even a little scared to be entering a structure fire, there is something wrong with you.
    I'm too busy to be scared. Honestly.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    “Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”: Franklin D. Roosevelt's First Inaugural Address, 1932.

    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    Thats what sucks sometimes about working at a slower paced place, Not as much experience as the city gets.
    I have been doing this almost 5 years but there is still alot I have not seen. On top of that we don't have alot of older guys with lots of exp.

    Lack of working alot of fires makes me tend to be over cautious sometimes.
    And I agree that the opportunity to fight fire is down, and especially down in some smaller communites and rural areas. We can combat that lack of incidents with more training and especially live fire training in acquired structures. Of course it is not exactly the same, but live fire training in acquired structures is about as close as we can get to the real thing.

    I believe the lack of real world incidents and the experience that comes from them will continue to plague the fire service. It is, however, a double edged sword, we need the incidents to get experience, yet we do not want fire to cause damage and/or injury or death to our citizens.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And I agree that the opportunity to fight fire is down, and especially down in some smaller communites and rural areas. We can combat that lack of incidents with more training and especially live fire training in acquired structures. Of course it is not exactly the same, but live fire training in acquired structures is about as close as we can get to the real thing.

    I believe the lack of real world incidents and the experience that comes from them will continue to plague the fire service. It is, however, a double edged sword, we need the incidents to get experience, yet we do not want fire to cause damage and/or injury or death to our citizens.
    There those in the "fire service" who claim that we shouldn't be training under real conditions because "someone could get hurt" and are pushing for "virtual fire training" via computer simulation.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Talking And............

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    There those in the "fire service" who claim that we shouldn't be training under real conditions because "someone could get hurt" and are pushing for "virtual fire training" via computer simulation.

    Not only do you own a cool ride, you start decent and civil discussions.......

    Good point above, and that came home a while back when a Rope Drill was rescheduled because the "Air Cushion" gizmo at the Training Academy was out of service due to a Blower Problem. My point to the B/C was that they don't drag the device to calls out in the field................


    (I also pointed out that there were other air filled objects wandering in the area, we should just use one of them. He replied that he didn't want to get their white shirts dirty.)
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And I agree that the opportunity to fight fire is down, and especially down in some smaller communites and rural areas. We can combat that lack of incidents with more training and especially live fire training in acquired structures. Of course it is not exactly the same, but live fire training in acquired structures is about as close as we can get to the real thing.
    I agree that live fire training in acquired buildings is as close to the real thing as we can get.. it's also getting extremely hard, if not impossible to do because of all the regulations and prohibitions. I don't know the exact situation in NJ but I know I've never personally seen or heard of live fire being done in acquired buildings. NJ has either prohibited it outright, or made it so difficult that it's essentially the same thing. The only live fire I've done has been at the nearby fire academy. While this is beneficial it is nowhere near the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I believe the lack of real world incidents and the experience that comes from them will continue to plague the fire service. It is, however, a double edged sword, we need the incidents to get experience, yet we do not want fire to cause damage and/or injury or death to our citizens.
    It's ironic that our current success at reducing the number of fires is directly counteracting our future success by reducing the amount of experience we gain.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    There those in the "fire service" who claim that we shouldn't be training under real conditions because "someone could get hurt" and are pushing for "virtual fire training" via computer simulation.
    I agree computer simulation might be useful as an augmentation to training (much like watching videos is) but it would be deeply tragic to see it replace live-fire exercises.

    Alas, liability is a huge thing these days, and sadly becoming even larger. The day may come when the lawyers and insurance companies dictate what training is "suitable" and what is just too goll danged risky in such a safe occupation as firefighting....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    There those in the "fire service" who claim that we shouldn't be training under real conditions because "someone could get hurt" and are pushing for "virtual fire training" via computer simulation.
    I will mourn the day that actual "fire" used in training is deemed too dangerous for firefighters to experience.

    Actually NOW, I believe that the fires we have in burn facilities are creating a false sense of what is real out in the world. We burn pallets and a little cardboard for room fires, OR some towers use natural gas. The result? We get fires with little smoke and due to safety regs unrealistically low levels of heat.

    My #1 POC FD ran a live fire exercise in a mobile home. We burned Class A materials with no accelerants. We got some good fires wth lots of smoke and heat. We actually had a mutual aid group of firefighters come out of the trailer after extinguishing the fire and say to me "What the F*** was that?" I said "What's the problem?" They said "We couldn't see a damn thing and it was hotter than hell in there." I laughed and said "Never seen a fire outside the tower have you?" AND that is the issue, we use the tower and live fire there and leave students with that image of what a structure fire is...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    I agree computer simulation might be useful as an augmentation to training (much like watching videos is) but it would be deeply tragic to see it replace live-fire exercises.
    It's supposed to be 102 degrees here today. Virtual fire training is actually sounding pretty good.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually NOW, I believe that the fires we have in burn facilities are creating a false sense of what is real out in the world. We burn pallets and a little cardboard for room fires, OR some towers use natural gas. The result? We get fires with little smoke and due to safety regs unrealistically low levels of heat.
    We've been able to get pretty good smoke and heat during our live fire training in the burn buildings. Even with that there are significant differences from the "real thing" that are hard to overcome. The biggest two being the lack of belongings (furniture, "stuff"..etc) and the fact that almost everyone knows the building layout beforehand. Another being that fire doesn't behave the same way in burn building. It tends to stay put, in the burn racks rather then extending and forcing guys to hunt for it.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I will mourn the day that actual "fire" used in training is deemed too dangerous for firefighters to experience.

    Actually NOW, I believe that the fires we have in burn facilities are creating a false sense of what is real out in the world. We burn pallets and a little cardboard for room fires, OR some towers use natural gas. The result? We get fires with little smoke and due to safety regs unrealistically low levels of heat.

    My #1 POC FD ran a live fire exercise in a mobile home. We burned Class A materials with no accelerants. We got some good fires wth lots of smoke and heat. We actually had a mutual aid group of firefighters come out of the trailer after extinguishing the fire and say to me "What the F*** was that?" I said "What's the problem?" They said "We couldn't see a damn thing and it was hotter than hell in there." I laughed and said "Never seen a fire outside the tower have you?" AND that is the issue, we use the tower and live fire there and leave students with that image of what a structure fire is...
    Prepared to be shocked.

    I fully agree that our personnel are not beiong trained in enough live fires, and that in some cases, training has become too safe.

    My VFD did some live burns in a trailer a few months ago and the guys from my combo department thought we were crazy as it wasn't "NFPA complaint". The fact is we currently do not have a burn building and this was a rare chance for our guys to get some live fire.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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