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Thread: Philadelphia 2011

  1. #676
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    You got pwned dude.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    And if that is not possible, then look no further than the FOP (Ramsey changed the hiring practice). Why can't the Fire Commissioner? Oh yeah, I forgot - you guys our helpless on that one too. Pathetic
    Do you honestly think the current Commissioner is going to WANT to change this new method of testing- (which so blatantly grants preference with the "banding" of grades) giving the "preferred demographic" an unfair advantage, especially given that the consent decree was dissolved? If you do think this, you need to get your head examined.

    In Philly, the Union or the Fire Department have no say in how recruits are hired, especially the Union. The FD gives a list of their needs to Human Resources, who then coordinates with Civil Service to execute a test and subsequent list. Once all the testing and grading is done, the recruits are hired, and then told to report to the Fire Department.

    Sure the Union and FD can make recommendations but thats about it. And the way the relationship is between the Union and the City right now, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if the City took any written recommendations presented by the Union and wiped their azzes with it. The IAFF's National Bylaws prevent Local 22 from becoming involved in any kind of litigation on behalf of non-members.

    Are you SVandro reincarnated with a new name?
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 04-05-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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  3. #678
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    I'm not saying the Commissioner wants to change this method. I'm saying that if the members of the PFD want this to change - they have to be the ones to initiate the change. Either challenge the 1974 ruling, be more proactive in how the commissioner is appointed, or do nothing.

    I'm new to the forum and am only on here to try to get the ppl on here (who are currently PFD firefighters) to stop feeling bad for themselves and saying they don't have the ability to do anything.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    I'm not saying the Commissioner wants to change this method. I'm saying that if the members of the PFD want this to change - they have to be the ones to initiate the change. Either challenge the 1974 ruling, be more proactive in how the commissioner is appointed, or do nothing.

    I'm new to the forum and am only on here to try to get the ppl on here (who are currently PFD firefighters) to stop feeling bad for themselves and saying they don't have the ability to do anything.
    Nevermind. I am not going to continue to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    I'm not saying the Commissioner wants to change this method. I'm saying that if the members of the PFD want this to change - they have to be the ones to initiate the change. Either challenge the 1974 ruling, be more proactive in how the commissioner is appointed, or do nothing.

    I'm new to the forum and am only on here to try to get the ppl on here (who are currently PFD firefighters) to stop feeling bad for themselves and saying they don't have the ability to do anything.
    You must be a saint, you came on here to save everyone from their own pitty. Honestly if you hadn't come on here I would be really sad right now...... I might have believed that if you weren't so hostile, it seems like you have an agenda not a want to help people. You sound like a s*** stirrer trying to get people to say things they can't take back. Once you hit send these things are out there and have a way of showing up when you don't want them to even if you have hit edit.

  6. #681
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    All I'm trying to do is to show what is abundantly clear from reading these posts. FWDbuff and philly10 are representative of the mentality of the majority of Philly firefighters (there's also an excellent article in Philly magazine explaining it too). And here it is: "We have absolutely no power to do anything." It's an absolutely helpless mentality and its sad.

    FWDbuff is claimoring for everyone to join in a lawsuit. But what exactly are these prospective plaintiffs going to allege?
    There was cheating at the testsite. Well ok, do you any proof/evidence/anything to show that??

    The administration is trying to hire the preferred demographic (i.e. black firefighters). Well ok, do we have a statistical sample of all those who scored 100's and their respective race and are there any statistical disparities which are highly unprobable to a certain degree of mathematical certainty to show the numbers aren't exactly "random"?

    I can go on and on. But its simple - plaintiff's of a class action can't just make a conclusory allegation that the test was unfair. You need proof, facts, data to show why. Retaining a lawyer and getting this data (if it even exists) is extremely expensive and the majority of ppl taking this test don't have the resources to do it. Without this data, the complaint gets dismissed on a 12(b)(6) motion (Federal Rules of Civ Procedure) and it's dismissed with prejudice.

    It's very easy to tell people to do something, but these firefighters don't understand that they are in the best position to change the culture of the department. If it really meant something, they would fight/petition or do whatever it takes to change this.

    I'm sure FWDbuff will have a cynical comment in reply. But as I said - he's representative of what we're dealing with here. When they get challenged - resort to name calling. I think we all learned to stop doing that in the 8th grade.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    All I'm trying to do is to show what is abundantly clear from reading these posts. FWDbuff and philly10 are representative of the mentality of the majority of Philly firefighters (there's also an excellent article in Philly magazine explaining it too). And here it is: "We have absolutely no power to do anything." It's an absolutely helpless mentality and its sad.

    FWDbuff is claimoring for everyone to join in a lawsuit. But what exactly are these prospective plaintiffs going to allege?
    There was cheating at the testsite. Well ok, do you any proof/evidence/anything to show that??

    The administration is trying to hire the preferred demographic (i.e. black firefighters). Well ok, do we have a statistical sample of all those who scored 100's and their respective race and are there any statistical disparities which are highly unprobable to a certain degree of mathematical certainty to show the numbers aren't exactly "random"?

    I can go on and on. But its simple - plaintiff's of a class action can't just make a conclusory allegation that the test was unfair. You need proof, facts, data to show why. Retaining a lawyer and getting this data (if it even exists) is extremely expensive and the majority of ppl taking this test don't have the resources to do it. Without this data, the complaint gets dismissed on a 12(b)(6) motion (Federal Rules of Civ Procedure) and it's dismissed with prejudice.

    It's very easy to tell people to do something, but these firefighters don't understand that they are in the best position to change the culture of the department. If it really meant something, they would fight/petition or do whatever it takes to change this.

    I'm sure FWDbuff will have a cynical comment in reply. But as I said - he's representative of what we're dealing with here. When they get challenged - resort to name calling. I think we all learned to stop doing that in the 8th grade.
    Wow that was much better

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    All I'm trying to do is to show what is abundantly clear from reading these posts. FWDbuff and philly10 are representative of the mentality of the majority of Philly firefighters (there's also an excellent article in Philly magazine explaining it too). And here it is: "We have absolutely no power to do anything." It's an absolutely helpless mentality and its sad.

    FWDbuff is claimoring for everyone to join in a lawsuit. But what exactly are these prospective plaintiffs going to allege?
    There was cheating at the testsite. Well ok, do you any proof/evidence/anything to show that??

    The administration is trying to hire the preferred demographic (i.e. black firefighters). Well ok, do we have a statistical sample of all those who scored 100's and their respective race and are there any statistical disparities which are highly unprobable to a certain degree of mathematical certainty to show the numbers aren't exactly "random"?

    I can go on and on. But its simple - plaintiff's of a class action can't just make a conclusory allegation that the test was unfair. You need proof, facts, data to show why. Retaining a lawyer and getting this data (if it even exists) is extremely expensive and the majority of ppl taking this test don't have the resources to do it. Without this data, the complaint gets dismissed on a 12(b)(6) motion (Federal Rules of Civ Procedure) and it's dismissed with prejudice.

    It's very easy to tell people to do something, but these firefighters don't understand that they are in the best position to change the culture of the department. If it really meant something, they would fight/petition or do whatever it takes to change this.

    I'm sure FWDbuff will have a cynical comment in reply. But as I said - he's representative of what we're dealing with here. When they get challenged - resort to name calling. I think we all learned to stop doing that in the 8th grade.


    Did you apply for the testing to become a Philly Firefighter? Did you come in on the list? If so, you may, "May" I said to mean a slim chance, of complaining about the procedures. If you didn't apply and just came in here to run on and on about why the Local doesn't do anything about the testing problems. They can't help anyone unless they are members of the Local.


    Being a citizen off the street and sitting for the exams to get a job, then they are on their own.


    The way I see it from my viewpoint and perspective, shut your swear and listen to the men who have gone way before you or others and know what they are talking about.


    The city will do everything in its power to adjust and manipulate the hiring list to hire who they want to. It already has been said that a pale skin has a very slim chance getting hired. It is not only in Philly but it is everywhere.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  9. #684
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    Here's the problem - The Fire Commissioner has unbridled discretion to do whatever he wants. This is not the way any organization (especially a civil service organization) should be run. There is a fundamental problem with the management structure that has put the fire department in this position.

    Where are the checks and balances? There are none. All anyone does is sit back, retreat to whichever group they belong to (Valiants, CAFFA, etc.), and complain that the other group is the cause of their problems.

    They can't see past race and until they do - everyone prospective firefighter suffers because of it.

  10. #685
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    If you take race out of the picture, would we have these problems? I highly doubt it

  11. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    If you take race out of the picture, would we have these problems? I highly doubt it
    Wow! Ya think? Maybe you're not as dumb as I thought. Just what the fukc do you think CAFFA and other groups have been trying to do for years by pushing for colorblind testing and other hiring practices? But then again, just which part of "There is nothing that the Union can do" didn't you understand? Shall I say it to you in German? Polish? Chinese?

    Oh and as for your remark about class action lawsuits not being successful, tell that to a bunch of guys who have (successfully) sued the state of NJ (Camden specifically) back in the 1990's.....Then we have the guys up in Conneticuit that just won.....let's see.....How about all the discrimination lawsuits currently pending on behalf of the "preferred demographic" in Chicago and New York? Do they ring a bell at all? No one ever said Lawyers were cheap, but when the candidates all get together as a group and get organized and pool their funds, you would be surprised at what can happen.

    So..Once again....There is NOTHING that Local 22 can do.

    There is NOTHING that the PFD will do. (except encourage the shenanigans and tomfoolery that will get the "preferred demographic" hired.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  12. #687
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    if you feel so strongly about this lawsuit, then I'm sure everyone would be more than willing to accept a donation/gift/bequest on behalf of CAFFA to fund a part/majority of the attorney's fees which will be incurred in initiating the lawsuit. (Thanks for your recommendation of a CAFFA appointed lawyer - where can we repay you for such outstanding advice??)

    Put your money where your mouth is. It seems to me like that might be the most productive way for CAFFA to fight these hiring practices. Obviously, any other measures they've taken haven't worked.

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    (Thanks for your recommendation of a CAFFA appointed lawyer - where can we repay you for such outstanding advice??)
    The same place we can repay you for your demands "that the union do something."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  14. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    All I'm trying to do is to show what is abundantly clear from reading these posts. FWDbuff and philly10 are representative of the mentality of the majority of Philly firefighters (there's also an excellent article in Philly magazine explaining it too). And here it is: "We have absolutely no power to do anything." It's an absolutely helpless mentality and its sad.

    FWDbuff is claimoring for everyone to join in a lawsuit. But what exactly are these prospective plaintiffs going to allege?
    There was cheating at the testsite. Well ok, do you any proof/evidence/anything to show that??

    The administration is trying to hire the preferred demographic (i.e. black firefighters). Well ok, do we have a statistical sample of all those who scored 100's and their respective race and are there any statistical disparities which are highly unprobable to a certain degree of mathematical certainty to show the numbers aren't exactly "random"?

    I can go on and on. But its simple - plaintiff's of a class action can't just make a conclusory allegation that the test was unfair. You need proof, facts, data to show why. Retaining a lawyer and getting this data (if it even exists) is extremely expensive and the majority of ppl taking this test don't have the resources to do it. Without this data, the complaint gets dismissed on a 12(b)(6) motion (Federal Rules of Civ Procedure) and it's dismissed with prejudice.

    It's very easy to tell people to do something, but these firefighters don't understand that they are in the best position to change the culture of the department. If it really meant something, they would fight/petition or do whatever it takes to change this.

    I'm sure FWDbuff will have a cynical comment in reply. But as I said - he's representative of what we're dealing with here. When they get challenged - resort to name calling. I think we all learned to stop doing that in the 8th grade.
    First of all do not but me in your post's you still have no idea what you are talking about members do try and fight the system every day their is lawsuites against the department and every day after a settelment is made they go back to doing the same things the city dosen't have are backs and the higher ups side with them. As for the test a Capt tried to slide black applicants in after the peocess was closed got suspended with pay they made chief is first day back also that held the test up long enough for the recruitement team to go to minority schools only and get kids certs as EMT and FF1 so they got extra points on the test. The members and union fight for rights for all every day black or white but the higher ups would rather see us divded so again you haven't any idea what the f*^k your talking about and i'm done with you

  15. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    Here's the problem - The Fire Commissioner has unbridled discretion to do whatever he wants. This is not the way any organization (especially a civil service organization) should be run. There is a fundamental problem with the management structure that has put the fire department in this position.
    Well, once again, do your homework before you start pontificating. The City Charter allows the mayor to appoint the Fire Commissioner and gives the Fire Commissioner his powers. The union has no power over this, except to try to change the City Charter (must be voted and approved by the voters at an election).

    Each department shall have as its head an officer who either personally or by deputy or by a duly authorized agent or employee of the department, and subject at all times to the provisions of this charter, shall exercise the powers and perform the duties vested in and imposed upon the department.

    The following officers shall be the heads of the departments following their respective titles:

    City Solicitor, of the Law Department;

    Director of Commerce, of the Department of Commerce;

    Police Commissioner, of the Police Department;

    Health Commissioner, of the Department of Public Health;

    Fire Commissioner, of the Fire Department;

    Street Commissioner, of the Department of Streets;

    Parks and Recreation Commissioner, of the Department of Parks and Recreation; 20

    Welfare Commissioner, of the Department of Public Welfare;

    Water Commissioner, of the Water Department;

    Commissioner of Public Property, of the Department of Public Property;

    Commissioner of Licenses and Inspections, of the Department of Licenses and Inspections;

    Commissioner of Records, of the Department of Records;

    Revenue Commissioner, of the Department of Collections;

    City Controller, of the Auditing Department;

    Procurement Commissioner, of the Procurement Department.

    ANNOTATION

    Sources: The Administrative Code of 1929, Act of April 9, 1929, P.L. 177, Section 206, as amended.

    Purposes: 1. Each department is to have a head, and this section lists the heads of the various departments.

    2. The exercise of the powers and the performance of the duties of each department are made the responsibility of the department head.

  16. #691
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    It's funny - I gave FWDbuff a pretty good suggestion and he didn't even attempt to mention. Hmm wonder why?

    Or maybe, CAFFA could organize a meeting (similar to the fire exam reviews) to meet with those test takers who feel the results are discriminatory. Wouldn't that make sense? Everyone can share information and see what they can possibly do about it. Probably be the smart thing to do - so considering it's smart, I'd doubt it would happen.

    And philly10 - I'd attempt to answer your post, but it reads at a second-grade level. Isn't a high school diploma or equivalent required to be on the PFD?

  17. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomname2 View Post
    Or maybe, CAFFA could organize a meeting (similar to the fire exam reviews) to meet with those test takers who feel the results are discriminatory. Wouldn't that make sense? Everyone can share information and see what they can possibly do about it. Probably be the smart thing to do - so considering it's smart, I'd doubt it would happen.
    Now that's an excellent suggestion.

  18. #693
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    Maybe CAFFA was listening. CAFFA put out the following:

    Please spread the word to anyone you know who took the recent Phila. Fire Entrance exam to make sure they follow the instructions on their results notification to review their exam results.
    It is imperative that individuals know their score on the first part of the exam and the second part (WSI) personality type questions if they want to get on board with any legal action that may take place.
    We are currently reviewing the exam with our legal advisors to determine if legal action is warranted.
    We'll have information in the next few weeks.

  19. #694
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    May the brothers who perished this morning rest in peace...pray for their brothers left behind and their families

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    Yes, its a tragedy. God bless them and their families.

    BigGuy - I really hope they were listening. I scheduled to make my appt this morning. It is especially imperative for the guys who received 100's to have their tests reviewed also. Having this score can mean the difference b/w being #250 or #1100 so it's crucial that everyone knows how they were scored and why they are higher/lower than someone who has the same exact score. Don't be complacent that you received a 100. If you did it once, there's no doubt that you can do it again. We just need to force them to give a test that is completely objective (i.e. fair).

    I made my appt this morning. I hope everyone does the same. This is the only way to get the info we need to ensure only the best/most qualified people make it on the job.

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    ............
    Last edited by Stogie81; 02-25-2014 at 09:50 AM.

  22. #697
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    Are you ****ting me? The cut off for the TPM manual was 53???

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    ..........
    Last edited by Stogie81; 02-25-2014 at 09:51 AM.

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    That's absolutely insane - if CAFFA's legal advisors need more than that statement to determine "if legal action is warranted" they should be fired for legal malpractice. Does anyone know how/when CAFFA is having a meeting to discuss the merits of this test? Something needs to be done immediately.

  25. #700
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    53 is 16 points BELOW what is generally considered a failing score. The more I hear, the more sick I get.

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