Seriously man not qualified? I ranked well and got a letter so Im not complaining but I know a few guys just as qualified as me who took the test and didnt rank as well so thats BS. Let them be excited man Its all on us now, the process has began so don't be so sour. In all reality the test was a joke, the first part was all memorization, the second part was basically luck for real. I know I would not consider someone qualifed based on that test, no way! Based on a personality test with some stupid questions that don't relate to anything about the job? comon.
Seems to me that there is no difference in persons ranked 224-1136 according to the first list that was leaked.
Hey BigGriff, If you did get your EMT cert.....bring it to your orientation. It can't hurt...only makes you look better....maybe they take it..maybe they don't... good luck bro!
Originally Posted by BigGriffC12
Originally Posted by Randomname2
At this point we really don't know who is qualified and who is not. I will speak for myself here..I'm a 40 year old white male Vet. Did I get a letter because I am a vet? idk. Did I get a letter because I'm 40? idk. What I do know is that there is legally no age limit to being hired. I don't feel like I'm "cutting" in front of anyone. And yes, that test was a joke. Maybe the city had to re-rank the test...? Does anyone believe the city is trying to "cherry-pick" white male Vets? I don't.
On a side note...I took the test many years ago...when they gave you a study booklet and the test was strictly based on that booklet. That's the test they should return to. 18,000 , yes, 18,000 people took the test I speak of...and I ranked in the top 200. I went thru the process and then declined the job,for what I thought was a better opportunity. I am currently in a very dangerous occupation. If I get thru the process again, I will take the job. And by the way, I will be taking a pay cut to be a Philly Firefighter.
I'm not all full of myself either. I just hope the best candidates get the job. The Fire Dept. is coming apart at the seems right now. Philadelphia needs good Firefighters that take the job for the right reasons. I hope the best people get the job. And I also hope they have the balls to do the job. Just my opinion.
I told myself that I wouldn't respond anymore to this forum because of the negativity..but since you want to passive-aggressively call me out..I'll bite..
Originally Posted by Randomname2
1. What exactly makes someone more qualified then someone else? more specifically, what makes me more qualified then you? I took the same test as you..I studied the same 100+ page study guide as you and I passed..did you? I'm sorry if I answered the personality questions honestly and said that I believe that the reason why we have so many problems today is that children are not disciplined enough( I strongly agreed), and that I would rather go to a museum then an amusement park, because of previously mentioned undisciplined children( I strongly agreed to that also.)
2. Do you want to go the route of job related experience? I'm not going to turn this into a ****ing contest and list all the training/national certifications that I have or are in the process of getting. I pursued them and the others that I am pursuing because I want to be the best possible firefighter/emt/emergency responder that I can, weather that be a volunteer, or career. I understand that it dosen't matter because I'm still going to go through the academy,god willing, if I make it that far, and that is fine, but when you go for your interview and you get asked "what did you do to prepare yourself for this job" it will matter...my willingness to train without a paycheck means that I am willing to put in the effort to be the best I can be for my brothers and sisters on the job.
3. Or, do you want to go the route of past job experience? I've worked long hours, in stressful situations, having to make on the spot decisions that could have effected myself and my soldiers in a positive or negative way, luckily for me, I knew what I was doing and I brought everyone home alive in 1 piece. I was a junior non-commissioned officer who led soldiers in combat..does that make me qualified?
4. Or, do you want to go the route of professionalism? Being a professional means handling yourself in a professional manner. I've taken quite a few civil service tests/firefighter exams..I've driven to different states..I scored top 10 on the correction officer exam..but I didn't get hired, I'm sure because someone who is on the job got their son/daughter,nephew, neighbor,dog,cat a job over me, same goes for the federal firefighter positions I've applied for..but, you can do 1 of 2 things, sit on a message board and complain, talking down to people you don't even know, or try and make yourself better for the next go around. ( I've done the latter once, and I regret it because it really isn't professional but when you're emotionally attached to a job, and you put in effort it sucks when you don't get it) but life is full of disappointments, ups and downs, I kept my head up and moved forward.
5. You want to talk about the union? are you a member of IAFF local 22? do you know someone who is? are you going to go to the meeting? Last time I checked, we are all just numbers on a list somewhere, Hopefully, when I get on the job, I will prove myself, I will prove myself in the academy, not for you, not for the union, but to my brothers and sisters already on the job...If you start this much commotion on a message board I can't imagine what will happen when someone tells you to clean the bathrooms, for the 3rd day in a row..or clean the truck, when it isn't that dirty.
The best firefighters will make it on the job..the 1s who aren't best suited for the job will be weeded out along the way. The city, and other cities, state, and federal hiring authorities will hire who they want when they want, if that bothers you then maybe you should look into a different career field.
You don't know me, I don't know you..there is no way to gauge how much I or you want the job.
Am I mad because the city sent me a letter and you didn't get one? I, at this point, could really care less, because we are competition, and until the day we show up for work we will be competition, everyone on this board, everyone who isn't on this board is competition, If I didn't get a letter would I be happy for the people who did? Yes, because everyone deserves a chance to live their dream, or at least pursue it as far as possible..but, I got a letter, for whatever reason, so you best believe I'm going to pursue this as hard as humanly possible, to the best of my ability, for my family, for my "family" on the job already, and for myself.
In closing, I'm going to repeat myself in saying that if you don't have anything positive to add to my questions, or the questions of others on this board, then keep your negative attitude/comments to yourself.
And...this is not a job interview..this is not even sort of like an interview..this is a "hey, this is how the hiring process is going to work and if you suck at life so much that you couldn't find the place or show up on time or bring the right paperwork then we don't want you."
Originally Posted by Randomname2
The job interview, if you've taken any time out of your day to prepare yourself by looking through old posts comes at a later time and place, 1 interview with fire dept personnel, 1 with someone with hiring department, and 1 with the EMS dept. That is a job interview, this is 100 or so people sitting in an auditorium while a human resources person, or a fire dept person discusses the job interview, it is an FYI and also to receive your background packet to fill out and return so the city can start your process. It is also the first step in weeding people out, If you don't show up, your done..if you don't bring all or all the right paperwork, your done.
Excuse some people for not being NFPA (that is national fire protection agency) 1500 ( the standard for fire dept and occupational safety and health) compliant. I myself will have a fresh haircut and be clean shaven only because that is the way I prefer to be (it is a military thing) I may or may not be in a suit, and you will be able to tell who I am because I will address everyone as sir/ma'am.
Do you want to know how I know all this? because I took the time out of my day to read old forums and to read the letter that I got. Maybe you should prepare yourself a little better before making comments. K. thanks.
and 1 more thing..since you want to talk about how people dress/wear their hair..because you remind me of those idiot officers who sit in the FOB all day and talk crap on the guys who have been on mission for days and haven't had time to shave, or have been out an outpost for a month and haven't had time to come back for a haircut, or clean their uniform..I want you to remember something..last time I checked, Delta operators, green berets, navy seals don't wear their uniforms IAW( in accordance with) AR 670-1 and most of them grow beards that I wish I could grow, and have long hair..does that make them any less professional then the idiot 2nd LT. back on the FOB doing a whole lot of nothing? I'm pretty sure the SEALs who killed Bin Laden weren't clean shaven..just saying. If someone feels more comfortable in something other then a suit then so be it. don't judge someone by how they look, judge someone by how they act, and by their character.
Now that I worked out my fingers..I'm going to the gym to work out the rest of my body..
Thanks Griff ... I agree we definitely need a new forum
Great tangent Griff... Just a few observations:
1. Your rank is higher than 1000 and received a letter. Candidates ranked in the 300s did not receive a letter. By my math, there are approx 700 individuals (and maybe more) who are more deserving of the job than yourself. They took the same test and were ranked just like you - they have a higher rank. Therefore, they should have gotten a letter before you. By accepting the position knowing this - all your talk about "family" is absurd.
2. To alphawhiskey's comment - there is a difference b/w 224 and 1136. See comment 1 above. (If there was no difference, there would be no reason to rank them then, would there???)
3. You're missing the point on the "what should I wear" comment. It is the mere fact that ppl don't have the sense to know they should dress professionally for their first step in the hiring process which is telling (for how stupid it is).
4. While I respect your military service, speaking frankly I could give a sh*t about it, when it comes to your fitness for the PFD. You still need to go through the academy. And frankly, its questionable how one's military service makes them better suited for the PFD than anyone else. Personally, I believe the PFD should give preference to educated candidates over military service. (Lloyd Ayers was in the military... need I say more??)
5. Yes, I know several members of IAFF 22 who are more than concerned about how these candidates are being cherrypicked.
Additionally your comments about the NAVY Seals not being shaved when they killed bin laden, the guys on a mission, etc.. is a non-sequitur (i.e. does not follow).
We are not talking about being clean shaven while in the line of duty. We are talking about being clean shaven and dressed in appropriate attire for your first appearance before your prospective employer. There's a big difference.
I find it very hard to fathom that you would not be "accepting" of this invitation to continue on in the process had you been given a letter. But then again, what do I know...
Why don't youse guys, whackers, wear shorts, flip flops with a tee shirt saying either, I fight what you fear, My Johnson is bigger than yours, or we do it dirty'!!
Also hang a couple of pagers, cell phones on your belt and have the tones set to be heard by everyone to the old Emergency TV program alert tone and get a Q sound bite for the other ones.
Look like an old salt with long hair, three or four days growth of chin whiskers on your face, and don't' bother to shower that day!
Now if you want a job, shower, shaved, wear a nice pair of slacks, shirt with tie, hair washed and combed and shined shoes. Look your best.
1.So you agree with a personality test determining the candidates fate? By this dumb system it seems hard to determine who actually deserves anything or determine why the people who are getting letters are getting them.
Originally Posted by Randomname2
2. Is there a difference b/w 224 and 1136? See comment 1 above.
4. "I believe the PFD should give preference to educated candidates over military service." Well we were ranked based on a personality test which was not based on intelligence.
5. I do also and they would also be concerned if they started at 1 and worked there way down. This whole testing procedure was BS.
1. I vehemently disagree w/ using a personality test to determine one's rank. Yet, I also disagree w/ taking someone ranked 1,200 over someone ranked 300. Everyone is in the same boat - how hard is it to go right down the list? Cherrypicking only adds to the absurdity of this hiring process.
2. See above.
3. Extra points were given to those with military experience. No points were given to college graduates. Do you understand what I mean by preference now???
You want to know why vets should be given preference? lets count the reasons....
1. Following orders..as a probie you will be expected to do stuff that isn't that glamorous i.e. scrub toilets, clean dishes, mop the floor, clean the trucks..make food..eat last, don't take the seat of a member with more seniority..now..If someone tells me..clean the toilet I'm going to be like "yes sir/ma'am" while others might be "oh why do I have to do this when no one else does"
2. wearing a uniform..prior service military are used to wearing uniforms to a standard..every day.
3. working in less then favorable environments..granted, I don't think anyone is going to get shot at or hit an IED going to a fire in Philly..but..working in the heat, humidity, rain, snow, cold...yeah.
4. Professionalism: showing up early, bc early is on time, on time is late...
The fire service is a paramilitary-esqe environment, so who better to work within the system, then people who are already used to the system?
and as far as hiring an "educated" candidate over a vet, I'm sure there's plenty of people on here who can attest that all those paper certificates or diplomas in fire science or whatever doesn't mean jack..
If you don't have "it" then it isn't going to mean nothing, you will get yourself and/or others killed and/or hurt..
"it" is a the definition used to describe what you do in a life or death situation..in combat if you get shot at and you cry and quiver and hide..you don't have "it" if you stand up, shoot and fight you have "it"...what are you going to do when you pull up to flames blowing out of a window and someone is trapped? are you going to throw your degrees and certificates at it and hope the fire goes out? are you going to be like.."but it is hot in there"? what if you go to a house that you know is a crack house and it is on fire? are you going to be like "they don't deserve to have their house saved because they are crack addicts? are you going to pick and choose who you risk your life for? Are you going to not help a brother because of the color of his skin and therefore believe he got on the job unfairly? Are you going to treat a medical call different because of someone being on welfare? or not on welfare?
It's clear to me that the way some people act on here is not in accordance with the values that I'm sure most firefighters live by..
And no, my talk of family is not absurd..you aren't my family, neither is anyone else on this message board..everyone here is competition..period.
What if your best friend and you took the test and he scored higher then you, but he got a letter would you be hateful and resentful toward him? or would you support him regardless because this is what he wants to do..esp. when you know he would be happy and supportive of you?
You have ABSOLUTELY no concept of what this job is about..you can't measure you're courage, bravery, love for fellow man, willingness to help another human by a test..and esp. not by this test..
If I scored 300 or 1 and someone who is 5,000 got a letter and I didn't would I be upset? Yes, I would be upset at myself for not preparing myself enough.I wouldn't be mad at anyone else but me..Your bitterness bothers me and quite frankly it is offensive. Are you the 1 upper? whenever someone in your life accomplishes something you need to steal their thunder? I'm guessing so.
because some of you have a hard time understanding this concept...
The test came in 2 parts..
a) a memorization part, that you were required to study a 100+ page study guide and answer questions from.
b) a personality portion.
The first portion of the exam was pass/fail..the personality portion was graded and how we were listed.
I passed the first portion of the exam..did you? therefore we are equally qualified based on the exam.
It seems like flawed logic to say you disagree with how everyone got ranked and then say how hard it is to go from the top and work down. Does it matter how they "pick" if the list is BS to begin with? You are either getting screwed or your not but if you get a letter take advantage. Regardless.......I am not trying to insult anyone for their opinions and I hope the randomness is not "cherrypicking". Good luck to the men and women of the PFD because they are the ones that REALLY suffer if a bunch of crumbs get through to the academy not us.
Originally Posted by Randomname2
In regard to preference the only ones the make any sense to me would be EMT and FF1 because of the experience that MIGHT translate.
Please stop with your military talk - no one cares that you can clean a toilet with your toothbrush.
To answer your hypothetical: If I scored a 100 and my friend scored a 100, and I was ranked 300 and he was ranked 1,200, and he got a letter before I did (which is the case here), would I be mad? YES, b/c even though our ranks may have been chosen questionably - it was uniformly questionable.
If they were going to pick ppl at random (such as yourself) - they SHOULD NOT have ranked anyone with the same grade.
FYI - I got a 100 on the test (however the hell they graded it).
Let me ask you a question..lets say..our positions were changed..You had my rank, and I had your rank..What would you do? Protest? Would you not show up to the orientation? How would you handle it? I'm just saying..I'm not black, I'm not Irish, I don't have family on the job, I don't have friends on the job,I'm not dating the fire commissioner's daughter..The city chose to send me a letter..I didn't ask for it..so for a minute put yourself in my shoes.
You scored a 100? that is awesome..so that means you studied enough of the study guide to pass the pass/fail portion..and then you took a personality exam, much similar to those on E-Harmony to match people with each other on a date..and you did better than I did. Congrats.
Did you raise a stink about all the people who took the test without bringing the letter of admission? Did you complain about how people without the letter of admission or without a photo ID were supposed to be fingerprinted but never were?
How can you justify that your 100..is any better then the 800 or so other people that scored a 100? how are those people ranked?
Are you upset about people getting residency preference? or legacy points? I know that you are upset about people getting veteran's points....
If you want a true test maybe we should all protest to get the test thrown out and then on the next test offer no extra points for ANYTHING..that would be fair right? because the people who scored above you..technically..aren't more qualified then you because they used extra points to get a better score..for example..I get 10 vets points..5 points for FFI and EMT..that's 15 extra points..so technically..if i got a 86..plus 15 that's a 101..better then you..are you upset that someone who scored an 85 or an 86 could have possibly gotten a higher score then you? just saying.
And in theory, everyone on here says that the test was BS, the grading system, rank system was messed up..whatever..so, how do we really know how is qualified?
1 last question..this is probably the most important question I have for you..Because of your rank, and my rank you deem yourself more qualified then me..that is clear, and that is fine, entitled to your own opinion..but really, in what ways, did this test measure any qualifications for the job? did it measure someones math skills? listening skills? reading skills? inter-personality skills? or did it just measure how much useless information, about a made up fire dept in la-la land, you or I could memorize? AND....how do you know that while, they may have ranked people according to the personality exam..that the actual grades of the memorization portion weren't used? Maybe, I got a 100, and you got an 80..I'm just saying..
I'd be more than satisfied with a test based strictly on a study book and no extra points for anything. That way, someone's rank will be determined by their willingness/dedication to put in the time to read and understand the material and be tested on it. Then no one should be able to cry.
You didn't answer my first question bro..actually you didn't answer a lot of my questions...
I'll ask them again..
What would you do if you were in my shoes..you know, took the test, didn't do as good as you wanted, moved on and then got a letter?
Did you make a big stink about the city letting people in to test who didn't have the admissions letter, or who didn't have photo ID and who didn't get finger printed?
and most importantly..How on earth, are you using this test as a factor in deciding that you are more qualified then myself, or others who got letters that were below your rank? Because as I stated before We both passed the pass/fail portion, and I don't see any correlation between a personality test used on a dating website, and the abilities or character needed to be a firefighter..
Because I think that if you were number 5,000 and you got a letter, and number 1 didn't and number 1 got all mad at you..you would still sit for the orientation and try your hardest to get hired..that is, if you really want the job.
And, to me, and to the logical person, the only true way to gauge " being qualified" is by who graduates the academy..because that is the only portion of this entire hiring process that has anything to do directly with being a PFD Firefighter. Maybe you interview better then I do, maybe I grasp the concept of firefighting principles better then you do..it is what it is..
I'm really glad that when I was 17, I enlisted in the United States Army (with parental consent) and became a combat medic. I won't talk about war stories here since Griff already explained in full detail why veterans deserve preference bc of our service. My point is, just about every male and female who is healthy enough to be a FF also had the same opportunities to become a service member. Not to brag or anything but here I am now sitting comfortably with a letter to orientation and forced to make a choice to be an Emergency Department RN or a FF. With that being said, I do hope that a man who is ranked 1200, that is busting his *** gets the job bc for me personally my heart is torn between 2 passions; 1 being emergency medicine and the other which is obvious. But its alright, I will continue the process because my decisions earlier in life has placed me in a well ranking position.
I appreciate the love from my fellow vets...god bless you guys.
If I was in your position, I would ask why I received a letter over the other applicants who scored higher than myself and then relay this information to the IAFF. I wouldn't hide my head in the sand, which it seems you are planning on doing.
In essence, you're being dishonest. Is that not something they teach you in the military? How to be a stand-up/accountable person..
Being ranked 300 - 400 is better than being ranked 1,000. Therefore, they should have gotten letters before you. You don't deserve it - plain and simple. The people ahead of you do. It might not be fair, but its life (I think you said that).
You don't understand that you could be the difference for everyone on the list. We all deserve to know why people are being selected over others. You can help that, but it seems you're only looking to protect your own a**. I guess they teach that in the military..
Being a veteran certainly does not mean one is more qualified for a position in the FD over someone who is a non-vet. For generations, the majority of recruits for fire departments have been non-vets, and the Fire Department excels in its mission because it is the FIRE DEPARTMENTS way. The test is entry level, meaning no prior qualifications necessary. Being a veteran of war simply entitles said vet to extra points on the entrance exam in exchange for their selfless and dedicated service to country. The points are added, and that is it. So much as a college degree does not mean **** to the brothers in the house, neither does an honorable discharge. What matters is your performance in the ****.
On the same token, if you got a letter then forget the haters on here and go and get what you believe is yours. In the end, the cream WILL rise to the top.