Philadelphia 2011

[BigGriffC12]

You want to know why vets should be given preference? lets count the reasons....

1. Following orders..as a probie you will be expected to do stuff that isn't that glamorous i.e. scrub toilets, clean dishes, mop the floor, clean the trucks..make food..eat last, don't take the seat of a member with more seniority..now..If someone tells me..clean the toilet I'm going to be like "yes sir/ma'am" while others might be "oh why do I have to do this when no one else does"

2. wearing a uniform..prior service military are used to wearing uniforms to a standard..every day.

3. working in less then favorable environments..granted, I don't think anyone is going to get shot at or hit an IED going to a fire in Philly..but..working in the heat, humidity, rain, snow, cold...yeah.

4. Professionalism: showing up early, bc early is on time, on time is late...

The fire service is a paramilitary-esqe environment, so who better to work within the system, then people who are already used to the system?

and as far as hiring an "educated" candidate over a vet, I'm sure there's plenty of people on here who can attest that all those paper certificates or diplomas in fire science or whatever doesn't mean jack..
If you don't have "it" then it isn't going to mean nothing, you will get yourself and/or others killed and/or hurt..

"it" is a the definition used to describe what you do in a life or death situation..in combat if you get shot at and you cry and quiver and hide..you don't have "it" if you stand up, shoot and fight you have "it"...what are you going to do when you pull up to flames blowing out of a window and someone is trapped? are you going to throw your degrees and certificates at it and hope the fire goes out? are you going to be like.."but it is hot in there"? what if you go to a house that you know is a crack house and it is on fire? are you going to be like "they don't deserve to have their house saved because they are crack addicts? are you going to pick and choose who you risk your life for? Are you going to not help a brother because of the color of his skin and therefore believe he got on the job unfairly? Are you going to treat a medical call different because of someone being on welfare? or not on welfare?
It's clear to me that the way some people act on here is not in accordance with the values that I'm sure most firefighters live by..

And no, my talk of family is not absurd..you aren't my family, neither is anyone else on this message board..everyone here is competition..period.

What if your best friend and you took the test and he scored higher then you, but he got a letter would you be hateful and resentful toward him? or would you support him regardless because this is what he wants to do..esp. when you know he would be happy and supportive of you?

You have ABSOLUTELY no concept of what this job is about..you can't measure you're courage, bravery, love for fellow man, willingness to help another human by a test..and esp. not by this test..

If I scored 300 or 1 and someone who is 5,000 got a letter and I didn't would I be upset? Yes, I would be upset at myself for not preparing myself enough.I wouldn't be mad at anyone else but me..Your bitterness bothers me and quite frankly it is offensive. Are you the 1 upper? whenever someone in your life accomplishes something you need to steal their thunder? I'm guessing so.

--------------------------THIS-----IS------THE-----BOTTOM-----LINE----------------------------

because some of you have a hard time understanding this concept...

The test came in 2 parts..
a) a memorization part, that you were required to study a 100+ page study guide and answer questions from.
b) a personality portion.

The first portion of the exam was pass/fail..the personality portion was graded and how we were listed.

I passed the first portion of the exam..did you? therefore we are equally qualified based on the exam.

thats it..

[Stogie81]

Stogie:

1. I vehemently disagree w/ using a personality test to determine one's rank. Yet, I also disagree w/ taking someone ranked 1,200 over someone ranked 300. Everyone is in the same boat - how hard is it to go right down the list? Cherrypicking only adds to the absurdity of this hiring process.

2. See above.

3. Extra points were given to those with military experience. No points were given to college graduates. Do you understand what I mean by preference now???

4. Agreed.

It seems like flawed logic to say you disagree with how everyone got ranked and then say how hard it is to go from the top and work down. Does it matter how they "pick" if the list is BS to begin with? You are either getting screwed or your not but if you get a letter take advantage. Regardless.......I am not trying to insult anyone for their opinions and I hope the randomness is not "cherrypicking". Good luck to the men and women of the PFD because they are the ones that REALLY suffer if a bunch of crumbs get through to the academy not us.

In regard to preference the only ones the make any sense to me would be EMT and FF1 because of the experience that MIGHT translate.

[Randomname2]

BigGriff..

Please stop with your military talk - no one cares that you can clean a toilet with your toothbrush.

To answer your hypothetical: If I scored a 100 and my friend scored a 100, and I was ranked 300 and he was ranked 1,200, and he got a letter before I did (which is the case here), would I be mad? YES, b/c even though our ranks may have been chosen questionably - it was uniformly questionable.

If they were going to pick ppl at random (such as yourself) - they SHOULD NOT have ranked anyone with the same grade.

FYI - I got a 100 on the test (however the hell they graded it).

[BigGriffC12]

Let me ask you a question..lets say..our positions were changed..You had my rank, and I had your rank..What would you do? Protest? Would you not show up to the orientation? How would you handle it? I'm just saying..I'm not black, I'm not Irish, I don't have family on the job, I don't have friends on the job,I'm not dating the fire commissioner's daughter..The city chose to send me a letter..I didn't ask for it..so for a minute put yourself in my shoes.

You scored a 100? that is awesome..so that means you studied enough of the study guide to pass the pass/fail portion..and then you took a personality exam, much similar to those on E-Harmony to match people with each other on a date..and you did better than I did. Congrats.

Did you raise a stink about all the people who took the test without bringing the letter of admission? Did you complain about how people without the letter of admission or without a photo ID were supposed to be fingerprinted but never were?

How can you justify that your 100..is any better then the 800 or so other people that scored a 100? how are those people ranked?

Are you upset about people getting residency preference? or legacy points? I know that you are upset about people getting veteran's points....

If you want a true test maybe we should all protest to get the test thrown out and then on the next test offer no extra points for ANYTHING..that would be fair right? because the people who scored above you..technically..aren't more qualified then you because they used extra points to get a better score..for example..I get 10 vets points..5 points for FFI and EMT..that's 15 extra points..so technically..if i got a 86..plus 15 that's a 101..better then you..are you upset that someone who scored an 85 or an 86 could have possibly gotten a higher score then you? just saying.

And in theory, everyone on here says that the test was BS, the grading system, rank system was messed up..whatever..so, how do we really know how is qualified?

1 last question..this is probably the most important question I have for you..Because of your rank, and my rank you deem yourself more qualified then me..that is clear, and that is fine, entitled to your own opinion..but really, in what ways, did this test measure any qualifications for the job? did it measure someones math skills? listening skills? reading skills? inter-personality skills? or did it just measure how much useless information, about a made up fire dept in la-la land, you or I could memorize? AND....how do you know that while, they may have ranked people according to the personality exam..that the actual grades of the memorization portion weren't used? Maybe, I got a 100, and you got an 80..I'm just saying..

[Randomname2]

I'd be more than satisfied with a test based strictly on a study book and no extra points for anything. That way, someone's rank will be determined by their willingness/dedication to put in the time to read and understand the material and be tested on it. Then no one should be able to cry.

[BigGriffC12]

You didn't answer my first question bro..actually you didn't answer a lot of my questions...

I'll ask them again..

What would you do if you were in my shoes..you know, took the test, didn't do as good as you wanted, moved on and then got a letter?

Did you make a big stink about the city letting people in to test who didn't have the admissions letter, or who didn't have photo ID and who didn't get finger printed?

and most importantly..How on earth, are you using this test as a factor in deciding that you are more qualified then myself, or others who got letters that were below your rank? Because as I stated before We both passed the pass/fail portion, and I don't see any correlation between a personality test used on a dating website, and the abilities or character needed to be a firefighter..

Because I think that if you were number 5,000 and you got a letter, and number 1 didn't and number 1 got all mad at you..you would still sit for the orientation and try your hardest to get hired..that is, if you really want the job.

And, to me, and to the logical person, the only true way to gauge " being qualified" is by who graduates the academy..because that is the only portion of this entire hiring process that has anything to do directly with being a PFD Firefighter. Maybe you interview better then I do, maybe I grasp the concept of firefighting principles better then you do..it is what it is..

[alphahwiskey08]

I'm really glad that when I was 17, I enlisted in the United States Army (with parental consent) and became a combat medic. I won't talk about war stories here since Griff already explained in full detail why veterans deserve preference bc of our service. My point is, just about every male and female who is healthy enough to be a FF also had the same opportunities to become a service member. Not to brag or anything but here I am now sitting comfortably with a letter to orientation and forced to make a choice to be an Emergency Department RN or a FF. With that being said, I do hope that a man who is ranked 1200, that is busting his *** gets the job bc for me personally my heart is torn between 2 passions; 1 being emergency medicine and the other which is obvious. But its alright, I will continue the process because my decisions earlier in life has placed me in a well ranking position.

[BigGriffC12]

I appreciate the love from my fellow vets...god bless you guys.

[Randomname2]

If I was in your position, I would ask why I received a letter over the other applicants who scored higher than myself and then relay this information to the IAFF. I wouldn't hide my head in the sand, which it seems you are planning on doing.

In essence, you're being dishonest. Is that not something they teach you in the military? How to be a stand-up/accountable person..

Being ranked 300 - 400 is better than being ranked 1,000. Therefore, they should have gotten letters before you. You don't deserve it - plain and simple. The people ahead of you do. It might not be fair, but its life (I think you said that).

You don't understand that you could be the difference for everyone on the list. We all deserve to know why people are being selected over others. You can help that, but it seems you're only looking to protect your own a**. I guess they teach that in the military..

[Ladders 4]

Being a veteran certainly does not mean one is more qualified for a position in the FD over someone who is a non-vet. For generations, the majority of recruits for fire departments have been non-vets, and the Fire Department excels in its mission because it is the FIRE DEPARTMENTS way. The test is entry level, meaning no prior qualifications necessary. Being a veteran of war simply entitles said vet to extra points on the entrance exam in exchange for their selfless and dedicated service to country. The points are added, and that is it. So much as a college degree does not mean **** to the brothers in the house, neither does an honorable discharge. What matters is your performance in the ****.

On the same token, if you got a letter then forget the haters on here and go and get what you believe is yours. In the end, the cream WILL rise to the top.

[FWDbuff]

In the end, the cream WILL rise to the top.

and then get stepped on by the preferred demographic candidates that were hired through this bogus test.

[BigGriffC12]

First off, if you passed the test you were placed on an ELIGIBILITY list, not a ranked hiring list. This is the first time the city has used this method. Not the first time they pick "random" applicants off the list though.

Second, the points awarded for military service are per civil service regulations. The city has nothing to do with that. The city is responsible for the extra points for FF and EMT certs this go around because they actually had a bunch of inner-city high school kids take those certs 'free of charge' at the FTA. What they didn't realize is that by opening the exam to non-residents EVERYONE with those certs got the points.

Last, the Philly POLICE now require 60 college credits to test for them. They've tried for years to get that in their contract. They also have a pre-hire physical test. The majority of the MEMBERS of the PFD want this in the FD hiring process. The reason that its NOT a part (ie no points for college and no physical test) of the process is widely known and easy to pick up on. If you dont know why, or even if you do, it's better to be mad at WHY things are how they are... not just HOW they are.

When I tested there were close to 14000 applicants, and the RANKED HIRING LIST was over 3000 people. I was in the top 5%, but had to wait to get in since back then you had to live in the city a year before appointment. The city still picked random people from the list. But that was a hiring list. There is a clear difference between hiring lists and eligibility lists. One means your order of consideration for the position.... at least in other parts of the country. The other means "heres all the people we could hire".

Why they even "ranked" this list makes no sense. And all the talk of who is deserving or not is idiotic. The city is telling you that you're more qualified because you prefer blue to yellow! And you're falling for it... Just as they do with the members, the city would rather you all fight between yourselves than be unified and fight them. It's a tactic they long ago mastered.

Until the PFD entrance test is a high school equivalency test with reading writing and math sections, and there is a pre-hire physical test there will never be a fair hiring process in this city. Until then, the only people to blame are the Mayor and his crony commissioners.

/rant

Finally someone with some actual good information. Thank you,sir.

[alphahwiskey08]

I was thinking the same thing. Something informative. Finally.....

[hammerhead38]

The City used this test to get the preferred demographic hired. The City added FF points and EMT points on their own....THEN tried to cert the preferred demograpfic in those specific areas. I don't recall those classes being offered in Far NE PHilly? Then they opened the test to non residents too. Well....guess they didn't plan on all the surrounding area Vets, who may also be FF's and EMT's etc applying....

How's this....what if they had to rescore the test...and now the pass/fail portion had to be given a grade? And that rescoring took the average score of that and the dumb personality quiz....by the way Big Griff....I preferred amusement parks...

I know I aced the first portion of that test. period. point blank. So, anyone thinks I'm cutting in line...go screw yourself.

Vets get points and deserve points. Some go to college nice and easy....others serve their country and put themselves in harms' way...still have a problem?....re-read above suggestion.

In PA you get the points added to your raw score......in NJ vets don't get points....they automatically go to the TOP of the list regardless of their score. Even as a Vet I think THAT'S wrong....give me 5 or 10 Vet points, and let me compete.

Big Griff....talk about your service all you want....I was in the Marine Corps myself, after graduating from Parris Island.

[FWDbuff]

Then they opened the test to non residents too. Well....guess they didn't plan on all the surrounding area Vets, who may also be FF's and EMT's etc applying....

The Police and Fire tests have been open to outside residents for at least 20 years that I know of- Anyone with any address could sit for the exam. However, when I was in the running, you had to have a City Residence for one year prior to your date of hire.

And yes, apparently there was a LOT of back peddaling at City Hall when someone realized "oh crap, if we give these kids the points, we have to give ANYONE in Pa. that qualifies the points too." Then folklore has it that they tried somehow to make so that the points were for City residents only, but the legal eagles put the brakes to that.

[Fixxer]

Wow, you guys are really squaring off and wasting a lot of energy on the keyboard instead of preparing for your physicals and the academy. I'm also surprised no one has pointed out the obvious....Is there a vet of any rank that did not get a letter? Anyone? Let me follow that up by a quote from President Obama's speech about the Veteran's Job Corps on 2/3/12: "So we want to prioritize veterans and we want to help states and local communities hire veterans to firehouses and police stations all across the country." There is your answer people...

Let me also address a few other topics:

Randomname2 - you are bitter because you haven't received a letter in a crappy process. You mention several times about people being more qualified than others. The reality is that this test does not prove that. Unfortunately, it is the standard by which a class will be hired. With that said, anyone with the same score is theoretically equally qualified regardless of the rank (ie. 224 or 1136). No one is better qualified or more deserving because they received a better random number and therefore a better rank. However, there needs to be some type of hiring order, so that is why there is a rank. This time around, for the first time, vets are being called up first. Do the math, should be about 320 letters out. Subtract the approx 185 vets on the list. Leaves about 135 letters for non-vets. Go down the list and count off 135 non-vets. Wherever that stops is where the "cut-off" was. I estimate around 230-240. Is there a non-vet on here ranked higher than that and got a letter? Your opinion about giving preference to vets doesn't matter. Get over it. You cite Car 1 as a reason vet preference doesn't matter and say you'd prefer education preference instead. Well, Car 1 has a Master's degree. Bottom line is that you didn't get a good random number. Sorry, but it isn't the fault of anyone on here. And it most certainly isn't the fault of any of the vets who served their country and are reaping the benefits that they earned. Taking out your frustration on them just shows your immaturity. Be a grown-up and congratulate those who got a letter, and then release your frustration on the City in the form of a lawsuit. And, for clarification, I am not a vet.

Firefuss - Your take on the "Eligible" list is incorrect. It is the same as a "Hiring" list. Look at the last promotional lists. They say "Eligible List" at the top. People are seeing seemingly random ranks getting letters and assuming the City is "cherry-picking" who they want. Well, sort-of...they are "cherry-picking" the vets, not the "preferred demographic" as most would assume. BTW, How's Florida working out?

As for orientation...Hammerhead says "I might also suggest to arrive early. If you walk in late...that too will be remembered." BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Fuss, wanna back me up on this.... "IF" you walk in late, you will be walking out early...as in immediately after getting your azz chewed out. This is not a joke. I witnessed multiple people get turned away because they were less than 5 minutes late. We arrive at least an hour early for every shift. Be there early. Have a back-up plan. If you get stuck in traffic, if you get in an accident, if you get lost, if you get a flat tire...NO ONE CARES. You will lose your opportunity. No excuses, be there. Late....Hah...too funny....

[CHUCK108FA]

Hello to all. I spend most of time on this site reading rather than posting, but sometimes frustration gets the best of me. I am a vet also, and ranked over 1000, and got a letter for the upcoming orientations. I do not feel that vets "deserve" extra points, we are granted that courtesy by grateful civilian authorities out of appreciation for our service. Flipside: if you did not serve and chose to go to college, that was your choice and perfectly respectable. If you wanted to be on the job all along, you would have researched and found that perhaps joining the military for a few years would not only have improved your chances of getting hired, but also majorly defrayed the cost of your education. Both paths can provide you with tools to succeed as a candidate and FF.

All the speculation about why some of the 1000+ folks got a letter and some 2-3-400s didn't is pointless. The city HR dept/Fire Dept/whoever will not disclose anything that could potentially open the city to legal action, especially not to some FF candidate who feels slighted by the way his test was graded/the fact he or she didn't get a letter. If you control the aspects of your process that you can control (fitness, study prep, learning what you can from personal resources and research, practicing interviewing skills, paying your bills to the city (PARKING TICKETS!!!)) then good things will happen. Say what you want about preferred demographics, consent decrees, cherrypicking, whatever....in the end, you still have to pass the academy. You can have had every backdoor advantage thrown your way, but if you can't tell the difference between an engine, a ladder, and Geo Metro, guess what? You won't have a job as PFD FF. And if you do somehow pass the academy, it is on those who evaluate you during your probationary period to confirm you are fit to wear the uniform.

This concludes the rant. Get off the forum and get to the track, the library, and the firehouse and improve yourself.

[FWDbuff]

By the way, Car 1 is a vet of the USN.

[BigGriffC12]

Is there going to be ample parking at/near the fire academy for the orientation class or is this going to be a case of public transportation?

[deadbear271]

Research it yourself you lazy a**hole