1. #26
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    I am not sure about what the situation in Idaho is but heres mine. I am a principal officer in a small local. I can honestly say that when we fight for more staffing...which we are doing now, increased "revenue' is the last thing I am thinking about. I am thinking about the safety of the community and my fellow members. Nothing personal, but I am getting tired of hearing that same old tired refrain.
    Co-signed brother!
    IAFF

  2. #27
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Originally Posted by ChiefKN
    Sounds like a revenue issue for the union.

    More members=more dues.
    Ken...most of us have had to fght to maintain our staffing levels... it took us two years to convince the City Council that we needed to fill the three vacant positions we had... the hiring process ha just started, and the successful probies won't be able to come on shift until March of 2012.. and we have 4 more retirements coming. Its not new positions.. it is maintaining our present staffing level.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #28
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    I am not sure about what the situation in Idaho is but heres mine. I am a principal officer in a small local. I can honestly say that when we fight for more staffing...which we are doing now, increased "revenue' is the last thing I am thinking about. I am thinking about the safety of the community and my fellow members. Nothing personal, but I am getting tired of hearing that same old tired refrain.
    I believe you 100%.

    That's why I asked if it was the actual members or the union leadership.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  4. #29
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Originally Posted by ChiefKN


    Ken...most of us have had to fght to maintain our staffing levels... it took us two years to convince the City Council that we needed to fill the three vacant positions we had... the hiring process ha just started, and the successful probies won't be able to come on shift until March of 2012.. and we have 4 more retirements coming. Its not new positions.. it is maintaining our present staffing level.
    I'm not disparaging the brothers at all. I know better.

    This didn't seem to be a discussion about minimum staffing...
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  5. #30
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Wow....This is not as bad as you make it. We will have an ambulance with one PM and one FF-EMT on board. If there is a fire the firefighter will be just like any other FF and suit up. The PM will assist outside and do what ever they do.
    Soooo..... when a firefighter goes down, or a civilian is pulled out, the guy who's supposed to be helping/driving the paramedic is..... inside the building.

    Great for the firefighter- he gets to chauffeur the paramedic around, not have to do much patient care or paperwork, and when a fire comes in he gets to do what he'd rather be doing anyway.

    The paramedic gets to run rehab by himself and worry about taking care of a patient by himself until a firefighter can shuck his fireground assignment, pack, and bunker gear to help the guy he was assigned to in the first place (which, by the way, can only negatively impact the suppression operation, possibly at a critical point).

    Sounds like a hell of an arrangement.

    Why can't the firefighters who are driving the ambulances just go to the trucks (thereby getting you 3 MORE guys on the floor), and the county EMS run the county EMS's ambulances?
    Last edited by emt161; 07-24-2011 at 09:59 PM.

  6. #31
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    1,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    Originally Posted by JayDudley
    Wow....This is not as bad as you make it. We will have an ambulance with one PM and one FF-EMT on board. If there is a fire the firefighter will be just like any other FF and suit up. The PM will assist outside and do what ever they do.


    Soooo..... when a firefighter goes down, or a civilian is pulled out, the guy who's supposed to be helping/driving the paramedic is..... inside the building.

    Great for the firefighter- he gets to chauffeur the paramedic around, not have to do much patient care or paperwork, and when a fire comes in he gets to do what he'd rather be doing anyway.

    The paramedic gets to run rehab by himself and worry about taking care of a patient by himself until a firefighter can shuck his fireground assignment, pack, and bunker gear to help the guy he was assigned to in the first place (which, by the way, can only negatively impact the suppression operation, possibly at a critical point).

    Sounds like a hell of an arrangement.

    Why can't the firefighters who are driving the ambulances just go to the trucks (thereby getting you 3 MORE guys on the floor), and the county EMS run the county EMS's ambulances?

    I agree here.
    Jay, if I'm making it sound bad, you really aren't making this sound good either. You are the one who brought this to the forums because the union has an issue with non-union. The more info you provided I can see where there can be issues and it also seams as though some more homework needs to be done and there needs to be a sit down with the union personnel to hear the concerns.

    The issue with making things sound bad, is because potentially, there are many issues that can come up and it does place both the PM and FF/EMT in very bad spots. Some is as EMT161 points out here, but let's go further, if you are saying the FF suits up, that leaves the PM by himself....so either freelancing, or unaccounted for. If set to do rehab, who is standing by for victims or potential victims? What happens when the ambulance shows up and there are victims requiring immediate treatment and transport, you now just lost your "extra" FF. Let alone if a fire comes in when the ambulance is out, you still lost your "extra" FF.

    The problem with such a plan, at least as described, doesn't seem to take into account such issues. If you are going to split a crew, then ensure there is accountability and there are roles filled. Relying on a single PM for both rehab and EMS is pretty stupid, let alone if there are immediate victims.


    Emergency incidents aside, you are also putting two people working together who fall under different governing rules and protocols. Yes, there is an issue with such an idea that needs to be looked at and concerns heard. This is going beyond just union and non-union, this looks like a plan that was not thought out well and now concerns are being voiced. Those voices need to be heard and this plan looked over and scrutinized before considering implementing.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Are we really that short-sighted to think that if this "combination crew" splits at the scene of a fire that another ambulance wouldn't be requested to assist to fill out the EMS side of the incident?

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    1,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Are we really that short-sighted to think that if this "combination crew" splits at the scene of a fire that another ambulance wouldn't be requested to assist to fill out the EMS side of the incident?
    Not short sighted, posing the question.
    Right now this seems as a plan for this station/dept, yet the EMS is county wide. The op doesn't say if this set up is how the rest of the county is operating and my guess is it isn't.

    The fire scene is just a small aspect, but goes towards questioning of such a plan. The OP says the FF/EMT will suit up for the fire, and the "plan" was to do this to justify an extra person for FF staffing. Well the fact remains if the ambulance is out or you have victims needing attention right away, your "extra" FF is thus now tied up. Furthermore if the crew is split, then accountability does come into question. Even if another ambulance is requested, there can still be a disparity at the scene. Such as you are still down the "extra" firefighter as the plan seeminly deems.

    As I mentioned before, incidents aside, you now have two members of completely different agencies being forced together with differing rules, regulations, contracts etc. It shouldn't take too much to see why some can have an issue here. The point being is this whole thread came out as a union, non-union issue of which I can see more issues beyond such a simplistic definition. What it is going to take is a sit down to go over such issues. If I was in this situation, your darn right I would have issues with such a plan as well.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  9. #34
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,273

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    It's not that complicated as you'all make it. If there is a fire and the ambulance responds with one firefighter and a paramedic the firefighter will suit up and there is always more who show up plus another ambulance for rehab. In a perfect world we would love to have our own paramedics but we do not. I think this will work and we have a sit down this week with all involved to air out our problems. I will let you know how it goes and again I think this will work out fine.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    1,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    It's not that complicated as you'all make it. If there is a fire and the ambulance responds with one firefighter and a paramedic the firefighter will suit up and there is always more who show up plus another ambulance for rehab. In a perfect world we would love to have our own paramedics but we do not. I think this will work and we have a sit down this week with all involved to air out our problems. I will let you know how it goes and again I think this will work out fine.
    Jay,

    Not looking to make this complicated, just trying to show some of the issues you asked what you were missing from the original post. If you go back you made this sound as though this is just solely aout union members working alongside non-union and asked what you were missing. I read the replies before I made mine and I made mine after you outlined more of this "plan". If you can't see the issues there, then there is definately something amiss.

    The incident issues are really only secondary, but do play a part in this plan. There really is more that needs to be looked at that I'm not seeing from this end and offering up, or that it just wasn't thought about. The fact remains that one needs to listen to the issues and concerns of those working before implementing such a thing. Seriously, if there is disparity between the union contract and the county protocol, regulations, etc, YES, expect issues. It is better to start looking at the bigger picture now instead of some band-aid for a bigger issue.

    You say there isn't the budget to have fire EMS now, but do you actually think this is going to expand such a budget and if so, let alone the county relinquishes control? If this is to justify an extra FF, then there are many other issues you need to look into and contend with as well, such as already mentioned.

    Right now from the gist of this thread and the info provided, I don't think that the bigger picture has been looked at from those wanting to implement such a plan. I do think you are missing a big portion of this if you can't see the disparity of two completely seperate agencies under differing rules, being forced to work together. This isn't like two PMs from the county staffing inside the station...which can be more easily justified, this is the forcing of different entities to work together, which can lead to contract issues etc.


    Let's just go on the minor end of things here just to set a picture. The FT FF's are in charge of station duties etc correct? I assume there is an outline on daily duties, station maintainence, upkeep, etc? If so, has such a plan looked into how an outsider (county PM) falls within such an organization? Is it right for the county PM to basically sit back on their *** after the ambu is checked over while the FF's train, clean, maintain the station and grounds? What kind of disparity do you think such an environment would create? You have a PM that can lick back (for all essential purposes) while the FF he works with is training, working, etc. If the contract defines specific duties, there can be more disparity. So when a call does come in you have, possibly animosity built up, a PM and an EMT....if the PM makes calls on what the EMT should/ shouldn't do, do you really think this is the best condusive working environment?
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  11. #36
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by jccrabby3084 View Post
    Not short sighted, posing the question.
    My post was more of a response to emt161's post than yours, but you both touched on the matter. I've seen this same type of comment in debate regarding (for lack of a better term) "outside the box" concepts in service delivery and am always puzzled by what seems to be people who don't seem to be able to see the bigger picture.

    It's certainly a legitimate question to ask, but could be handled with a lot more tact than they way emt161 asked. To me, when he posed the question, it seemed to be more of an accusation of misdoing rather than making an inquiry about any contingency plans.


    Right now this seems as a plan for this station/dept, yet the EMS is county wide. The op doesn't say if this set up is how the rest of the county is operating and my guess is it isn't.

    The fire scene is just a small aspect, but goes towards questioning of such a plan. The OP says the FF/EMT will suit up for the fire, and the "plan" was to do this to justify an extra person for FF staffing. Well the fact remains if the ambulance is out or you have victims needing attention right away, your "extra" FF is thus now tied up. Furthermore if the crew is split, then accountability does come into question. Even if another ambulance is requested, there can still be a disparity at the scene. Such as you are still down the "extra" firefighter as the plan seeminly deems.
    I agree with your points, except the one about accountability (assuming you mean fireground tracking of personnel). Accountability is always an issue at a fire scene. Unless you are a department that always works as a company, then I really don't see an increased issue regarding accountability when the crew splits and even then it shouldn't be a huge issue.

    For example, in my department, due to our minimum on-duty staffing of 5 FFs, it's not unusual for the 2 FFs on the initial attack team to not be off the same apparatus. As additional off-duty personnel arrive, they will need to be accounted for also. So, if you are set up to track personnel rather than the unit, it shouldn't be an issue. Besides, if you set aside the possible not working with a partner aspect, is it really that different than what other fire units do - the engine company driver/operator remaining with the apparatus to run the pump while the rest of the crew advances a line or the truck company splitting and 2 or 3 do an interior search while 2 or 3 others work on the roof, throw ladders or whatever?

    As I mentioned before, incidents aside, you now have two members of completely different agencies being forced together with differing rules, regulations, contracts etc. It shouldn't take too much to see why some can have an issue here. The point being is this whole thread came out as a union, non-union issue of which I can see more issues beyond such a simplistic definition. What it is going to take is a sit down to go over such issues. If I was in this situation, your darn right I would have issues with such a plan as well.
    I agree, there's possibly more than just union v. non-union issues to consider.

  12. #37
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,273

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    The duties of the PM and the FF at the station will be about the same. The training would be for both when it comes to the medical end of things. In station duties i.e. vacuuming,toilets,and general maintenance will be both of their responsibilities. Short of ever having to clean the fire truck for the PM everything is His/Her responsibility. On the fire ground the PM will be rehab and any outside help if needed.
    I think the opposition from the union is County is getting their paws in our sandbox so to speak and they want to stop it. I however as Commissioner see more staffing for us and more $$'s in the coffers. As for the argument of not wanting to work next to non-union employees strictly because they are non-union doesn't hold water for me. I see the big picture and I think the Union President doesn't.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  13. #38
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Thumbs up Well..........

    I too see this as more than a "Union/Non Union" issue. But, I'm thinking I see a pinpoint of light at the end of the long tunnel. Jay, be sure to correct me if I'm off base, but I'm starting to see this as the first small step toward the Fire Department(s) in this County absorbing all EMS functions. This, to me, is a logical move from the standpoints of Economy and Logistics. Over the years, I've seen a number of Service Delivery options, and to me, today, it's hard to justify a stand alone EMS system if there is a Fire Department already doing business in that jurisdiction. Couple of points about that: Placing EMS Vehicles in Fire Stations provides a better coverage matrix than have them all at a Hospital, or similar location. Also, in todays economy, there really isn't a valid reason to fund "Separate but Equal" facilities next to each other, such as a few Volunteer Organizations that I'm familiar with where a Fire Station sits next door to an Ambulance Station. In the area of Personnel, a Fire Department's Human Resources office can handle the Paperwork, Pay, Scheduling, etc. for Medics just as well as it does for the Fire Crews. In any Career Staffed operation, just eliminating the "Home Office" of the EMS system will result in a Savings to the Funding Jurisdiction.....

    And an Absolute YES to having the Medics as active members of the Labor organization which represents the Firefighters.
    Last edited by hwoods; 07-25-2011 at 11:40 AM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  14. #39
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,273

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    hwoods..exactly. I think a Fire Based EMS service is the way to go. The problem is I think the County is hesitant to give it up. I think working together at this juncture is going to work. We have in our County 12 different Fire Districts with a few including us who have an ambulance. Coming from Southern California where we had Fire based EMS it going to take awhile to work with this type of system.

    Thanks for all the information as our meeting is this week and I will let you know how it went.
    Last edited by JayDudley; 07-25-2011 at 11:50 AM.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  15. #40
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    247

    Default

    Is there room on the ambulance to store the honking big gear bag that the FF is going to have to have with him if he is expected to respond as a FF at fire scenes?

  16. #41
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    Is there room on the ambulance to store the honking big gear bag that the FF is going to have to have with him if he is expected to respond as a FF at fire scenes?
    Seriously?

  17. #42
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,273

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Plenty of room.....as the Paramedic will not be going in. There's double the space.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  18. #43
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    I however as Commissioner see more staffing for us and more $$'s in the coffers.
    Are you saying that your department is collecting the third-party billing for these split personnel transports? I'm confused. I think.

    and to me, today, it's hard to justify a stand alone EMS system if there is a Fire Department already doing business in that jurisdiction.
    I'm not sure that some of the best-performing municipal EMS services in the nation would agree with that, Chief. What's PG's Utstein percentage these days?

    And an Absolute YES to having the Medics as active members of the Labor organization which represents the Firefighters.
    They work for two different agencies. I would think they'd need their own Local...?

  19. #44
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    They work for two different agencies. I would think they'd need their own Local...?
    They would likely be in different bargaining units, however they could be in the same Local unless there are local regulations that differ from that of my state.

  20. #45
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    Are you saying that your department is collecting the third-party billing for these split personnel transports? I'm confused. I think.

    Yes we are and you are.


    I'm not sure that some of the best-performing municipal EMS services in the nation would agree with that, Chief. What's PG's Utstein percentage these days?

    Our County does agree with it and we have Q&R's once a month. I'm not a Chief either I'm a Commissioner.

    I'm sure they have their own Union and the last time I checked the I.A.F.F. is a Union for active firefighters. I was a member for thirty years and a life time member of C.S.F.A.
    Last edited by JayDudley; 07-26-2011 at 01:34 AM.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  21. #46
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    247

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Seriously?
    Yeah, not many ambulances I've seen seem to have spare room for a bag the size my gear takes up.

  22. #47
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,740

    Post Jay??........

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Are you saying that your department is collecting the third-party billing for these split personnel transports? I'm confused. I think.

    Yes we are and you are.


    I'm not sure that some of the best-performing municipal EMS services in the nation would agree with that, Chief. What's PG's Utstein percentage these days?

    Our County does agree with it and we have Q&R's once a month. I'm not a Chief either I'm a Commissioner.

    I'm sure they have their own Union and the last time I checked the I.A.F.F. is a Union for active firefighters. I was a member for thirty years and a life time member of C.S.F.A.

    Jay, I think that the question was directed at me....... And to answer it I would have to admit that I have no idea who Utstein is or why it matters. We run the show, and provide good service...... Beyond that, my only other opinion, and I stress that it's my opinion, no one else's, is that our type of operation is the most cost effective and the most response oriented type of service model of those available.


    BTW, Congrats on passing the 1,000 Post milestone........
    Last edited by hwoods; 07-26-2011 at 11:59 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  23. #48
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    Yeah, not many ambulances I've seen seem to have spare room for a bag the size my gear takes up.
    It's a nearly-standard option for most ambulances now. I can't remember seeing one delivered in these parts (to FD's at least) that didn't have a turnout gear compartment.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  24. #49
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,273

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    hwoods.....Your correct as I don't know who or what that is (Utstein). We are trying our best with the tax base we have to provide the best possible service to our tax payers. If by having the County supply one Paramedic per shift to do that then so be it. In a perfect world having the paramedics be FF's also would be great but maybe down the road when our tax base increases.It seems to be a done deal and the Union members are not happy but they can work with us to make it work.

    BTW..I never look at my total as I just try to help....Thanks though.
    Last edited by JayDudley; 07-27-2011 at 01:35 AM.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  25. #50
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    Yeah, not many ambulances I've seen seem to have spare room for a bag the size my gear takes up.
    Then either you haven't seen too many ambulances or you have a really, really, really big gear.

    Personally, I've seen very few ambulances that couldn't accommodate a couple gear bags.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register