1. #51
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    I'm sure they have their own Union and the last time I checked the I.A.F.F. is a Union for active firefighters. I was a member for thirty years and a life time member of C.S.F.A.
    Actually, the IAFF has started to organize some EMS only agencies. I have 2 new EMS Locals in my immediate area and I think there's a handful or so statewide at the current time.

  2. #52
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,272

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Thanks for the info and I'll pass it on to the Union President. It seems to be a real sticky point of them not wanting to work with non-union / outside agency employees.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  3. #53
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Thanks for the info and I'll pass it on to the Union President. It seems to be a real sticky point of them not wanting to work with non-union / outside agency employees.
    It seems pretty clear you had your mind made up before this thread was even started. I know you may feel this is just casual talk, but remember you are speaking as a fire commissioner, not as Jay, the retired guy. I guess I struggle with the fact that you are an elected, or appointed official making public comment, which to me seems it would further incite what sounds like a sensitive issue to the employees who work for the agency you represent. At this point it doesn't matter who is right or wrong, the question is how much damage, if any will this create in regards to relationships with the employees. You have painted the union president as a person with lack of vision (when you speak of him, you really are speaking of all of them). The union in your organization is not a guy off the line with an executive board, and money behind him, they are a recently established local with very few members. I would suggest you work with them Jay, privately, appraise their efforts for trying to protect their organization. I think it's clear you are having to make a tough decision that may not rule in their favor, and probably came on here looking for some open advice with no intent to do harm, and that is understandable, just do it with a little more dignity and respect for those who work for you. These people are going to be with you after this thread is long gone and the decision has been made. I think you are a reasonable person Jay, I hope the best choice is made for your district, but at this point I feel your union members dont deserve to be put in negative light without any representation.

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,272

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Wow...If you perceive that this is what you see then I'm sorry. We have an excellent relationship with our Union and he has stated that they can work with what we decide. I have checked with the IAFF and found out that they DO have Locals who are EMS and not Firefighters. I by all means did not go into this with my mind made up and we as a Commission do work with our employees. To say so otherwise is the wrong impression to make. I am an elected official who has had the luxury of being on the other side of the table and was and still am a member of the IAFF. So when it comes to the well being of our Local....I do have their interests in mind and have gone the distance to support them.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  5. #55
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Wow...If you perceive that this is what you see then I'm sorry. We have an excellent relationship with our Union and he has stated that they can work with what we decide. I have checked with the IAFF and found out that they DO have Locals who are EMS and not Firefighters. I by all means did not go into this with my mind made up and we as a Commission do work with our employees. To say so otherwise is the wrong impression to make. I am an elected official who has had the luxury of being on the other side of the table and was and still am a member of the IAFF. So when it comes to the well being of our Local....I do have their interests in mind and have gone the distance to support them.
    Thanks Jay for explaining, and I want to apologize as I am only seeing this from one side. I didnt think anything less, but as I read your posts regarding the union president, it led me to believe otherwise. Of course, you are much closer to the issue and I only have a snap shot from your posts.....again, thanks for explaining.

  6. #56
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Wow...If you perceive that this is what you see then I'm sorry. We have an excellent relationship with our Union and he has stated that they can work with what we decide. I have checked with the IAFF and found out that they DO have Locals who are EMS and not Firefighters. I by all means did not go into this with my mind made up and we as a Commission do work with our employees. To say so otherwise is the wrong impression to make. I am an elected official who has had the luxury of being on the other side of the table and was and still am a member of the IAFF. So when it comes to the well being of our Local....I do have their interests in mind and have gone the distance to support them.

    Like FireMedic049 said, there are EMS-only locals in the IAFF, but there are stipulations to it. The big one is that the EMS agency must be a government entity, either local or county. The IAFF also looks at the individual department and its stability, such as likelihood of sustainment and past employee turnover rate. Our EMS department had to go through this process a few years ago when we joined, and had to prove that we had a lower turnover rate than surrounding EMS agencies.

  7. #57
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFMedic31 View Post
    Like FireMedic049 said, there are EMS-only locals in the IAFF, but there are stipulations to it. The big one is that the EMS agency must be a government entity, either local or county.
    I'm not so sure about that one being the case. Neither of the two EMS Locals in my area are Municipally run services. The one is hospital based and the other is private, non-profit.

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,272

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Our EMS is County based...so I think there will be no problem except that they "Want" to join. I was given the name and number for their representative to call if they are interested.

    Thanks again for all of the suggestions as I knew this was the place to go to get answers...
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  9. #59
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    Yes we are and you are.
    Nope, I'm crystal clear now. The county EMS paramedics are doing the work (sometimes by themselves, as we've already established), and you're collecting the money. I'd love to meet the EMS administrator that agreed to this.

    In the simplest layman's terms, a Utstein percentage is how many cardiac arrest patients from a given EMS system that are discharged from the hospital alive. Places like Wake County and Boston EMS have Utstein percentages in the 40's. Your DCs, Chicagos, and Detroits are somewhere below (usually far below) 10%.

    It's commonly considered a measurement of how advanced, effective, and competent an EMS system and its providers are, and helps identify areas for improvement.

    The systems that have no idea what their Utstein is... well, that's usually a sign of larger issues.

    It seems to be a real sticky point of them not wanting to work with non-union / outside agency employees.
    So send your three guys back to the trucks and send the medics back to their agency.

    I am an elected official who has had the luxury of being on the other side of the table and was and still am a member of the IAFF.
    So you're a member of the union you're supposed to negotiate with? How has no one raised a conflict of interest issue about this yet?

  10. #60
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    So you're a member of the union you're supposed to negotiate with? How has no one raised a conflict of interest issue about this yet?
    Because it probably isn't an issue.

    In all likelihood he a non-active member of the Local, assuming that is where he worked as an IAFF member. The IAFF has provisions that allow a person promoted out of the bargaining unit to remain a member of the IAFF while serving in that position - essentially a "leave of absence" kind of thing.

    For example, my department's chief is still an IAFF member, but is not involved with our Local.

    Additionally, he may or may not be directly involved with union negotiations. In my department, we negotiate with the City, not the Fire Chief (we don't have a Commissioner) although the City may consult with him on some matters.

  11. #61
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default side track...

    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    ...It's commonly considered a measurement of how advanced, effective, and competent an EMS system and its providers are, and helps identify areas for improvement.

    The systems that have no idea what their Utstein is... well, that's usually a sign of larger issues. ...
    Interesting. Seeing that cardiac arrests are only about 1% of my local EMS agency's calls, I'd suggest that's a pretty poor measurement of their effectiveness.

    Interesting information though.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #62
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Interesting. Seeing that cardiac arrests are only about 1% of my local EMS agency's calls, I'd suggest that's a pretty poor measurement of their effectiveness.

    Interesting information though.
    It's also a poor measurement of EMS performance because probably at least half of the care a patient receives from onset to discharge is not provided by the EMS system. If a patient is still viable once it hits the ER, but dies before being discharged, then how is that a negative reflection of the EMS system's performance?

    I worked a cardiac arrest a few years ago, probably mid-50s female. By the time we got her into the ambulance, we had a rhythm, good pulses and a reasonable BP, however she was not breathing on her own yet. We transported to the closest facility (about 5 minutes away) arriving in pretty much the same condition.

    Before the primary Paramedic was finished giving the report, due to the ER staff's inattention, the patient was back in cardiac arrest (unknown how long before they noticed) and pronounced dead before we had the unit clean up. How exactly does that reflect poorly on us (EMS)?

  13. #63
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,272

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Post removed....
    Last edited by JayDudley; 08-04-2011 at 08:54 PM.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  14. #64
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    P.S. I just Checked with our Fire Chief and we do not tract Utstein...we do Stemmy Protocol...
    Utstein statistics and a STEMI (S-T Elevation Myocardial Infarction) protocol are two completely different...

    Nevermind.

    We do the work as it is our EMT's who do the work not theirs we just get the County to pay for their benefits and wages.
    Your EMT. Their paramedic. But you're doing the work. Got it.

    You have to see our interactions to know what I'm talking about.....
    Then why did you ask?

  15. #65
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,272

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Post removed......
    Last edited by JayDudley; 08-04-2011 at 08:55 PM.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

  16. #66
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    1,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    The original question was......Union members working with non-union members. I think we got off tract as it is a simple question.............Our Union and the District has and always will work great together and to say different is wrong. So who ever it is out there who is saying different needs to stop. I was just asking a simple question and that was all......

    Really Jay, while the question may have been simplistic, the reality is the circumstances involved are quite complicated. There really is much more involved and valid concerns than to just easily feign this off as just union vs non-union as has been mentioned.

    I don't know where you get the idea that someone is saying that your district and union don't work together, because I haven't seen that in the comments here. Although you did say that you see the big picture and the union president doesn't, which can be taken out of context too.

    The question is simple, the circumstances aren't.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  17. #67
    Forum Member
    JayDudley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    1,272

    Default Union vs. Non-Union

    Post removed......
    Last edited by JayDudley; 08-04-2011 at 08:55 PM.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
    Background Investigator
    IACOJ-Member
    Lifetime Member CSFA
    IAFF Alumni Member

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register