Closed Thread
Page 5 of 21 First ... 234567815 ... Last
  1. #101
    Forum Member
    IronValor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Kentucky
    Posts
    210

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I disagree that we cannot sit back and not perform offensive operations because the situation is too dangerous. We have the right to walk away from that incident even though that may mean the death of the civilian(s), especially if the training and resources are not adequate to attempt the rescue.

    I got news for ya pal. Thats called abandonment! Once you choose to respond and have began operations and then pack up and walk away before the job is done is unacceptable. IF THE TRAINING AND RESOURCES ARE NOT ADEQUATE THEN CHANGE POLICIES AND PROCEDURE AND FUNDING SO THAT THEY ARE ADEQUATE!
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  2. #102
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Asking you to do the bare minimum is imposing standards?

    Don't feel sorry for me, feel sorry for the guys who have to put up with you.

    By the way, ESL is english as a second language. Your spelling and reading comprehension are on par with your fire service knowledge.
    Ok you want to impose "your" bare minimums on me, fine?

    How profecient is your city department on tanker shuttles? Could every firefighter on your city department assume every postion at a water shuttle right now? Can every engineer pump from a pond filling up the tank then switch back to the tank when the pond runs dry right now?

    If the water system failed tommarrow could every member interface perfectly with rural tankers coming in? Do your ICs know how to estimate availalble water flow based soley on the size of the tankers and the distance to the source(s)?

    How about brush fire operations? If I give them 5 tools off our brush truck can they name them all and tell me all the uses for them? Can they cut a hasty line and cut line as team? Do they all know how to properly backfire? Can they list for me and discuss all the factors that affect brush fire spread?

    Those are my minimums.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-01-2011 at 05:25 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #103
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ok you want to impose "your" bare minimums on me, fine?

    How profecient is your city department on tanker shuttles? Could every firefighter on your city department assume every postion at a water shuttle right now? Can every engineer pump from a pond filling upm the tank then switch back to the tank when the pond runs dry right now?

    How about brush fire operations? If I give them 5 tools off our brush truck can they name them all and tell me all the uses for them? Can they cut a hasty line and cut line as team? Do they all know how to properly backfire?

    Those are my minimums.
    I'm confused... what are the advanced forcible entry skills in question here? Is it like the advanced laddering the second floor skill?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  4. #104
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    I got news for ya pal. Thats called abandonment! Once you choose to respond and have began operations and then pack up and walk away before the job is done is unacceptable. IF THE TRAINING AND RESOURCES ARE NOT ADEQUATE THEN CHANGE POLICIES AND PROCEDURE AND FUNDING SO THAT THEY ARE ADEQUATE!
    Negative.

    We have the right to stop operations at any point.

    I'm not even going to comment on your ignorant statement regarding funding as you obviously have no clue how a small surburban or rural VFD operates in terms of funding.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #105
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I'm confused... what are the advanced forcible entry skills in question here? Is it like the advanced laddering the second floor skill?
    I'm confused as well.

    Any basic or advanced skills should be soley based on the district.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #106
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ok you want to impose "your" bare minimums on me, fine?

    How profecient is your city department on tanker shuttles? Could every firefighter on your city department assume every postion at a water shuttle right now? Can every engineer pump from a pond filling upm the tank then switch back to the tank when the pond runs dry right now?
    Fairly "proficient" as it's part of the test to become driver operator. Officers test on their ability to coordinate a water shuttle once a year also. Swapping from pump to tank is achievable even by brand new rookie standards as it's taught in the academy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    How about brush fire operations? If I give them 5 tools off our brush truck can they name them all and tell me all the uses for them? Can they cut a hasty line and cut line as team? Do they all know how to properly backfire?


    Those are my minimums.
    Can they, yes. I'll be honest that it's because many came from or still work in their respective volunteer departments that deal with it. The city it's self doesn't have to deal with it but last fall they spent an entire week teaching the other guys and going over it.

    I work with professional firefighters. Some are paid and some are not, but we are all professionals and treat our jobs as such. You are a paid administrator that approaches your job as a manager at blockbuster would. You do enough to get by and even that is proving to be not enough.

    Keep trying to find something we don't train in, it's so much fun making you look like the dip**** you are.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  7. #107
    Forum Member
    IronValor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Kentucky
    Posts
    210

    Default

    After all of the BS you have been spouting off and you are going to try to call me ignorant?

    Let us now open our hymnals because Church has just began..

    A. I am on a small rural Volunteer department that operates on a low budget and yet we have still got the resources and training to handle anything we are called for. I don't know maybe our people are just that dedicated and give a schyt

    B. " Train to Fight the Fires you fight" Is the stupidest thing anybody has ever said in history. That is nothing more than you being an advocate of Complacency and as Tajm has said numerous times Complacency kills. You never know what your going to come up against. You simply must be prepared for it.

    C. I don't know much about Bossier Parish but I do know this.. And this is regarding your thoughts on FE ( Thats Forcible Entry ) No two houses are the same and no two locks are the same. FE does not just stop at entering the structure and a full set of tools and the training on how to use them is not a waste of resources. Your actually a Fire Instructor? HOW?!

    D. If your departments do not have the resources or manpower then its time for a major overhaul. Even the most po dunk ****burgh FD with the right members, Dedication and Determination can accomplish great things.

    E. AFFIRMATIVE! Initiation of services or care and then walking away without ensuring that an entity of the same or better training has not taken over is in fact abandonment and Im pretty sure if this is common practice your departments limited income might just go towards somebody else's lawsuit win.

    F. " Give me a reason to initiate action and I will " How about because its your Job? It is what the fire service does? It is the right thing to do?

    G. "Untrained Civillians with no gear" Golly Gee Mister.. It sounds alot like your department is not much better!

    And Finally

    If you don't want to do what a Firefighter does then are you in fact really cut out for this business?

    It sounds like you are an armchair quarterback in all honesty. I mean it sounds like you do not do much at Fires. It is apparent that you do not know much about the service or tactics... And yet.. You still can critisize everything.


    Can I get an amen?
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  8. #108
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Fairly "proficient" as it's part of the test to become driver operator. Officers test on their ability to coordinate a water shuttle once a year also. Swapping from pump to tank is achievable even by brand new rookie standards as it's taught in the academy.

    Good. I know the city firefighters around here can't as that was clearly demonstrtated when one of the cities lost the water supply and the city department had to interface with the tankers.

    I didn't go well.


    Can they, yes. I'll be honest that it's because many came from or still work in their respective volunteer departments that deal with it. The city it's self doesn't have to deal with it but last fall they spent an entire week teaching the other guys and going over it.

    Again, good. I know again that's not the case here based on seberal recent events. I guess then by your standards the ciity firefighters are amatuers since they are not prepared to step outside of the city into the parish for a major brush event.

    Just to give you one example. One of the cities was requested by the parish Homeland Security Director to bring foam out to a major lakebed fire last year. They showed up with a pallet of Class B foam and couldn't understand why it wasn't applicable to our situation. That's why we don't call the city out to the parish.


    I work with professional firefighters. Some are paid and some are not, but we are all professionals and treat our jobs as such. You are a paid administrator that approaches your job as a manager at blockbuster would. You do enough to get by and even that is proving to be not enough.

    Was that supposed to be an insult? Yes, I manage the pubed program. I manage my end of the firefighter training program. And yes, I manage field operations when assigned. And guess what, it works for me.

    And by the way, most managers with any significant time in and a solid track record make more money that firefighters at the same time level.


    Keep trying to find something we don't train in, it's so much fun making you look like the dip**** you are.
    Really doesn't matter what you train in.

    My volunteer's time is extremly valuable. I'm not going to waste it on situations, tools and techniques they are likely never to use and I will use the time I have to drill into thier heads the tools, techniques and procedures we do use.

    To me, that's a wise way to manage thier time effectivly.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #109
    Forum Member
    IronValor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Richmond, Kentucky
    Posts
    210

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really doesn't matter what you train in.

    My volunteer's time is extremly valuable. I'm not going to waste it on situations, tools and techniques they are likely never to use and I will use the time I have to drill into thier heads the tools, techniques and procedures we do use.

    To me, that's a wise way to manage thier time effectivly.
    Oh My Dear sweet God and 9lb3oz Baby Jesus..

    I would like to know where you got your crystal ball and how did you get it and your head so far up your anus.

    Training is never a waste of time and I am sorry to tell you this but you do not know what you and your guys are going to face.

    You are a text book example on Murphy's law!
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  10. #110
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    Oh My Dear sweet God and 9lb3oz Baby Jesus..

    I would like to know where you got your crystal ball and how did you get it and your head so far up your anus.

    Training is never a waste of time and I am sorry to tell you this but you do not know what you and your guys are going to face.

    You are a text book example on Murphy's law!
    Once again, maybe you live in a different world, but volunteers here do not have the time to train on everything.

    Career members who are paid to train while on the clock are having issues covering all the material that today's fire service requires ..... And somehow you think volunteers working full-time jobs plus in many case, a second jobs, have the time to cover everything?

    Honestly?

    Sure you can require all the training you want, but i garuntee that in many cases they will simply burn out and not be able to meet your demands, and leave.

    Time spent covering material that they are unlikely to use is wasted time. Sure, the information is valuable, but if they are not likely to use it, it's simply not relevant. If you remember anything from Instructor I, the material you teach must be relevant to the job.

    If you have firefighters from a rural enviroment, they bneed to be taufght rural material. If you have urban firefighters, they need to fully understand urban material. And if you have an area with a combination of rural and urban, like my last department, they need to be taught the applicable elements of each.

    Time in a volunteer world simply does not allow for teaching them everything.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #111
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Case in point: you're not managing your volunteer's time wisely enough.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  12. #112
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    After all of the BS you have been spouting off and you are going to try to call me ignorant?

    Let us now open our hymnals because Church has just began..

    A. I am on a small rural Volunteer department that operates on a low budget and yet we have still got the resources and training to handle anything we are called for. I don't know maybe our people are just that dedicated and give a schyt

    Resources are not an issue on my combo department. We have everything we need. On my volunteer department the tax base simply does not, and never will, give us the funding for all of our needs. There are tools that would be nice to have but we will never have. We have made some very significant strides in the past 3 years, but we will always be wanting.

    B. " Train to Fight the Fires you fight" Is the stupidest thing anybody has ever said in history. That is nothing more than you being an advocate of Complacency and as Tajm has said numerous times Complacency kills. You never know what your going to come up against. You simply must be prepared for it.

    We disagree on how to train. I train them for what they are likely to face not what they are unlikley to face given the limited time available.

    C. I don't know much about Bossier Parish but I do know this.. And this is regarding your thoughts on FE ( Thats Forcible Entry ) No two houses are the same and no two locks are the same. FE does not just stop at entering the structure and a full set of tools and the training on how to use them is not a waste of resources. Your actually a Fire Instructor? HOW?!

    [COLOR="red"]Again, making entry is not an issue for us. Never has been. So I guess whatever we are doing must be working./COLOR]

    D. If your departments do not have the resources or manpower then its time for a major overhaul. Even the most po dunk ****burgh FD with the right members, Dedication and Determination can accomplish great things.

    Combo department has plenty of volunteers. Not an issue most of the time. VFD we use auto aid but at times, even with that, it can be an issue. Guess we need to build some robots, huh?

    E. AFFIRMATIVE! Initiation of services or care and then walking away without ensuring that an entity of the same or better training has not taken over is in fact abandonment and Im pretty sure if this is common practice your departments limited income might just go towards somebody else's lawsuit win.

    I would much prefer to be sued than lose a man trying to make a rescue we are not trained or equipped for. And I know my department leaders feel the same way. We can't save them all and people will die despite our best efforts. It's really that simple.

    F. " Give me a reason to initiate action and I will " How about because its your Job? It is what the fire service does? It is the right thing to do?

    It's only my job if it has the potential to make an impact on the outcome. It's not my job if it will likely not change or have little impact on the outcome.

    G. "Untrained Civillians with no gear" Golly Gee Mister.. It sounds alot like your department is not much better!

    No, not really. My combo department one of the best trained departments in the state and we have the trasining documentation and certification levels to prove it. The low fire loss says an awful lot as well. My VFD is making progress and things are starting to tighten up.
    And Finally

    If you don't want to do what a Firefighter does then are you in fact really cut out for this business?

    It sounds like you are an armchair quarterback in all honesty. I mean it sounds like you do not do much at Fires. It is apparent that you do not know much about the service or tactics... And yet.. You still can critisize everything.


    Can I get an amen?
    Seems like you the one putting your standards on others.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #113
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Time in a volunteer world simply does not allow for teaching them everything.


    Really? I'll put 10 of my guys up against your whole dept and see who gets the job done.

  14. #114
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm not going to waste it on situations, tools and techniques they are likely never to use and I will use the time I have to drill into thier heads the tools, techniques and procedures we do use.
    If all your training is proportional to the runs you go on, then I want to know how many training drills/sessions are dedicated to BS calls?

    Seriously, the whole point of training and drilling is to make sure you are prepared for the less common tasks. So, we can expect that you have more training and education devoted to responding to the false alarm.

    I would expect to read a comment like yours in the text of a LODD report from NIOSH.

    "Department's training philosphy is to only train on the things they do on a consistent basis. So when they were asked to force the door to this commercial building to effect a rescue of a trapped firefighter it took 30 minutes to accomplish."
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  15. #115
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    NIOSH: Mr. Callahan, please explain to us why your response time was......17 minutes?

    bob: Well, in our area I've found that responding cold is much safer.

    NIOSH: Right.... ok so, now we're at 16:45 during the incident, when the firefighter went down, what was your first plan of action?

    bob: For what?

    NIOSH: For the firefighter Mr. Callahan.

    bob: Nothing.

    NIOSH: What do you mean nothing?

    bob: Well, it's his fault, he decided to act in an reckless manner so I informed him over the radio we were no longer friends and our relationship has changed.

    NIOSH: ok......Well, other firefighters on scene reported they faced much trouble trying to get rear door of the structure open, do you have anything to add to that?

    bob: In our area, all doors are the same, why didn't they just use a halligan?

    NIOSH: Our findings show the door was in a tight space so even though it was an average door, conventional methods were impossible.

    bob: Just use a halligan, thats what I told them to do.

    NIOSH: But sir, like we said, there was no room to utilize the hallig....

    bob: In our area, you can always just throw the halligan through the door and it opens.

    NIOSH: Ok......at 16:55 an officer at the scene requested the roof be opened up for ventilation, can you explain why reports show you started to scream incoherently into the radio?

    bob: In our area, we don't vertically vent.

    NIOSH: Excuse me?

    bob: That's not part of my world famous rural firefighting certification.

    NIOSH: Is that an actual standard?

    bob: Why are you trying to push your standards on me?

    NIOSH: Sir, these standards are nationally recognized by 100% of fire depar...

    bob: In my area, I don't need any of that, we need something almost as good but not good enough to be on par with everyone else

    NIOSH: Why...how? That makes no sense.

    bob: Around here we don't use sense.

    NIOSH: I see that, so now we're at 17:00 during the incident, what happened next?

    bob: Don't know.

    NIOSH: Why not?

    bob: 5 o'clock, off duty, wasn't my problem anymore.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  16. #116
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    NIOSH: Mr. Callahan, please explain to us why your response time was......17 minutes?

    bob: Well, in our area I've found that responding cold is much safer.

    NIOSH: Right.... ok so, now we're at 16:45 during the incident, when the firefighter went down, what was your first plan of action?

    bob: For what?

    NIOSH: For the firefighter Mr. Callahan.

    bob: Nothing.

    NIOSH: What do you mean nothing?

    bob: Well, it's his fault, he decided to act in an reckless manner so I informed him over the radio we were no longer friends and our relationship has changed.

    NIOSH: ok......Well, other firefighters on scene reported they faced much trouble trying to get rear door of the structure open, do you have anything to add to that?

    bob: In our area, all doors are the same, why didn't they just use a halligan?

    NIOSH: Our findings show the door was in a tight space so even though it was an average door, conventional methods were impossible.

    bob: Just use a halligan, thats what I told them to do.

    NIOSH: But sir, like we said, there was no room to utilize the hallig....

    bob: In our area, you can always just throw the halligan through the door and it opens.

    NIOSH: Ok......at 16:55 an officer at the scene requested the roof be opened up for ventilation, can you explain why reports show you started to scream incoherently into the radio?

    bob: In our area, we don't vertically vent.

    NIOSH: Excuse me?

    bob: That's not part of my world famous rural firefighting certification.

    NIOSH: Is that an actual standard?

    bob: Why are you trying to push your standards on me?

    NIOSH: Sir, these standards are nationally recognized by 100% of fire depar...

    bob: In my area, I don't need any of that, we need something almost as good but not good enough to be on par with everyone else

    NIOSH: Why...how? That makes no sense.

    bob: Around here we don't use sense.

    NIOSH: I see that, so now we're at 17:00 during the incident, what happened next?

    bob: Don't know.

    NIOSH: Why not?

    bob: 5 o'clock, off duty, wasn't my problem anymore.
    Now that's funny ... I don't care how much of an idiot that you are.

    I was going to discuss some of your finer points, but decided that most folks on the forum actually know that several studies, including one by the City of St. Louis, have proven that running cold makes a minimal difference in response times, even in urban areas, while significantly reducing apparatus accident, firefighter injuries due to accidents and apparatus repair and maintenance costs.

    As far as your other "points", that's funny stuff.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-01-2011 at 09:44 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #117
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    If all your training is proportional to the runs you go on, then I want to know how many training drills/sessions are dedicated to BS calls?

    Seriously, the whole point of training and drilling is to make sure you are prepared for the less common tasks. So, we can expect that you have more training and education devoted to responding to the false alarm.

    I would expect to read a comment like yours in the text of a LODD report from NIOSH.

    "Department's training philosphy is to only train on the things they do on a consistent basis. So when they were asked to force the door to this commercial building to effect a rescue of a trapped firefighter it took 30 minutes to accomplish."
    Define BS calls?

    Do we train on routine EMS calls, much of which you could define as BS? yes, for the simple reason that some of the calls that appear to be BS have the possibility of being serious medical conditions that we may not pick up on them because they appear to be BS.

    As far as the BS fire calls, we do spend training time on reviewing procedures for common smoke and CO investigations, most of which end up being very minor incidents, as once again, things could be missed if not covered during training.

    We probably spend 20-30% on training new skills during weekly training nights, however as I discussed above, we do spend much of our time practicing and reviewing the skills that everyday skills we are most likely to use.

    We tend to use outside training, generally provided by TEEX or LSU Fire Training for much of our new skill training.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-01-2011 at 09:28 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #118
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    niosh: Mr. Callahan, please explain to us why your response time was......17 minutes?

    Bob: Well, in our area i've found that responding cold is much safer............

    Bob: 5 o'clock, off duty, wasn't my problem anymore.
    rotflmao:d

  19. #119
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was going to discuss some of your finer points, but decided that most folks on the forum actually know that several studies, including one by the City of St. Louis, have proven that running cold makes a minimal difference in response times, even in urban areas, while significantly reducing apparatus accident, firefighter injuries due to accidents and apparatus repair and maintenance costs.
    Just a note...........I believe those studies were limited to "non-priority" type calls and the conclusion was more of a finding that the slower response time did not impact the outcome negatively rather than a finding that there was a minimal difference in the response time.

    If the response time differences where truly that minimal, then they'd probably be running cold to all of their calls.

  20. #120
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    AL
    Posts
    37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    NIOSH: Mr. Callahan, please explain to us why your response time was......17 minutes?

    bob: Well, in our area I've found that responding cold is much safer.

    NIOSH: Right.... ok so, now we're at 16:45 during the incident, when the firefighter went down, what was your first plan of action?

    bob: For what?

    NIOSH: For the firefighter Mr. Callahan.

    bob: Nothing.

    NIOSH: What do you mean nothing?

    bob: Well, it's his fault, he decided to act in an reckless manner so I informed him over the radio we were no longer friends and our relationship has changed.

    NIOSH: ok......Well, other firefighters on scene reported they faced much trouble trying to get rear door of the structure open, do you have anything to add to that?

    bob: In our area, all doors are the same, why didn't they just use a halligan?

    NIOSH: Our findings show the door was in a tight space so even though it was an average door, conventional methods were impossible.

    bob: Just use a halligan, thats what I told them to do.

    NIOSH: But sir, like we said, there was no room to utilize the hallig....

    bob: In our area, you can always just throw the halligan through the door and it opens.

    NIOSH: Ok......at 16:55 an officer at the scene requested the roof be opened up for ventilation, can you explain why reports show you started to scream incoherently into the radio?

    bob: In our area, we don't vertically vent.

    NIOSH: Excuse me?

    bob: That's not part of my world famous rural firefighting certification.

    NIOSH: Is that an actual standard?

    bob: Why are you trying to push your standards on me?

    NIOSH: Sir, these standards are nationally recognized by 100% of fire depar...

    bob: In my area, I don't need any of that, we need something almost as good but not good enough to be on par with everyone else

    NIOSH: Why...how? That makes no sense.

    bob: Around here we don't use sense.

    NIOSH: I see that, so now we're at 17:00 during the incident, what happened next?

    bob: Don't know.

    NIOSH: Why not?

    bob: 5 o'clock, off duty, wasn't my problem anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Now that's funny ... I don't care how much of an idiot that you are.

    I was going to discuss some of your finer points, but decided that most folks on the forum actually know that several studies, including one by the City of St. Louis, have proven that running cold makes a minimal difference in response times, even in urban areas, while significantly reducing apparatus accident, firefighter injuries due to accidents and apparatus repair and maintenance costs.

    As far as your other "points", that's funny stuff.
    I really DON'T think he was making a joke.
    and you know it's a good point.

    You do know that all those silly training things that don't apply to your area, WILL be the standard that you and your dept. are held to if you are ever sued? It simply will not f***ing matter that you think that FFI and FFII are a waste of time for your members. You will get slammed in a court of law. Have you EVER been on the stand and crossed examined? Trust me on this, it ain't no fun.

    You always speak of protecting your family. Always. What steps are you taking to protect them in the case that you are found negligent, in a court of law, for being willfully undertrained and having a wealth of evidence on the internet that you didn't CARE because you don't think it applies to you.

    What then?

    I think that you have a greater chance of being sued than killed.

    Matt

  21. #121
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cmattdvc View Post
    I think that you have a greater chance of being sued than killed.

    Matt
    He works in LA. Tort laws down there aren't that strict.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  22. #122
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ok you want to impose "your" bare minimums on me, fine?

    How profecient is your city department on tanker shuttles? Could every firefighter on your city department assume every postion at a water shuttle right now? Can every engineer pump from a pond filling up the tank then switch back to the tank when the pond runs dry right now?

    If the water system failed tommarrow could every member interface perfectly with rural tankers coming in? Do your ICs know how to estimate availalble water flow based soley on the size of the tankers and the distance to the source(s)?

    How about brush fire operations? If I give them 5 tools off our brush truck can they name them all and tell me all the uses for them? Can they cut a hasty line and cut line as team? Do they all know how to properly backfire? Can they list for me and discuss all the factors that affect brush fire spread?

    Those are my minimums.
    My former FAE could do all those things as it related to the pumping operations. As could just about every other FAE in my old dept.

    We trained extensively in wildland firefighting. All your questions about brush operations were common knowledge for everyone in my dept. from rookie firefighter to the chief.

    We could and did do all that you believe is unique to your jurisdiction in addition to providing structure fire response to over a million people in 22 different cities.

    You may not get the news out there, but wildland fires happen in SoCal. In addition to earthquakes. We were ready for them and much more.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  23. #123
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    AL
    Posts
    37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    He works in LA. Tort laws down there aren't that strict.
    Didn't think of that. Thanks

    However, I would like to have a bit of discussion on it.

    Matt

  24. #124
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cmattdvc View Post
    Didn't think of that. Thanks

    However, I would like to have a bit of discussion on it.

    Matt
    There are no minimum training standards is our state. None. So based on that, we easily exceed any state requirements.

    Our rookie program not only includes applicable elements of FFI, but also includes expanded brush fire modules and applicable elements of FFII including foam operations, vehicle extrication and industrial operations.

    Completing a computer based FFI program is also a requirement to work off probation.

    I don't believe the department has any concerns about our rookie training being defensible in court as the elements not taught can easily be proven not to apply.

    Most of our firefighters also have additional outside training.

    In addition, we require FFI for all leadership positions.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #125
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    My former FAE could do all those things as it related to the pumping operations. As could just about every other FAE in my old dept.

    We trained extensively in wildland firefighting. All your questions about brush operations were common knowledge for everyone in my dept. from rookie firefighter to the chief.

    We could and did do all that you believe is unique to your jurisdiction in addition to providing structure fire response to over a million people in 22 different cities.

    You may not get the news out there, but wildland fires happen in SoCal. In addition to earthquakes. We were ready for them and much more.
    We're not discussing SoCal. I would certainly expect that just about every firefighter in SoCal, career or volunteer, would have extensive brush fire and wildland training.

    In this area, that is not the case as the cities will often call the fire districts in if there is a significant brush fire. They have very minimum brush fire training and do not even operate brush apparatus or tankers.

    And as demonstrated in the past, they have very little knowledge on how to work with tankers and draft water.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-02-2011 at 08:20 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

Closed Thread
Page 5 of 21 First ... 234567815 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register