1. #1
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    Default Man Down on Roof

    here is one I heard on the radio the other day. Lets see what we can come up with.

    FD and Ambulance dispatched for a man having a seizure. The patient is on a roof as a part of a roofing crew. The patient is lethargic and unable to walk down a ladder. The house is in a rural setting and Ladder Truck access is unavailable. Unknown how many store house it is.

    How do you safely get the patient down and to EMS?

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    Providing that there is not a tower available or there are wires or other obstructions in the way, I would do a knee style carry down an extension ladder.
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    If it's only a few stories high then use an extra high ladder, Bangor or whatever, at a very shallow angle as a ramp to lower the patient in a stokes basket.
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    This or a backboard with extra straps on it.
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    If the roof is too high for ladders I would rig a simple R/L systems with a tag line manned on the ground and lower the patient lashed in a Stokes basket.
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    We would (and have) sked'ed them down the aerial.

    Just read no aerial... then the 45 foot bangor. Good times.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Did I read something wrong, they are a roofing crew. I believe they got there by ladders not divine intervention. Now FD ladders and stokes if the angle is safe. or GT's solution. Now for the off the wall solution if neither of the above is workable. Cut a hole in roof and use the interior to remove him a lot easier to belay a stokes 8' than 30. The healthy guys left on the roofing crew can fix the hole later(joke) Unfortunately I have been involved with similar situations involving heavy people where walls were removed and winches used. It doesn't hurt to think outside of the box
    On a side not to LTjohns knee lower works great for an unconscious victim don't recommend you try it with a lethargic or person with altered mental status
    PEACE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Easyrider View Post
    Did I read something wrong, they are a roofing crew. I believe they got there by ladders not divine intervention. Now FD ladders and stokes if the angle is safe. or GT's solution. Now for the off the wall solution if neither of the above is workable. Cut a hole in roof and use the interior to remove him a lot easier to belay a stokes 8' than 30. The healthy guys left on the roofing crew can fix the hole later(joke) Unfortunately I have been involved with similar situations involving heavy people where walls were removed and winches used. It doesn't hurt to think outside of the box
    On a side not to LTjohns knee lower works great for an unconscious victim don't recommend you try it with a lethargic or person with altered mental status
    PEACE
    Good point, but have you seen the ladders they use? Rickety junk.

    I like cutting a hole.. as you said, they can fix it, no sweat!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Good point, but have you seen the ladders they use? Rickety junk.

    I like cutting a hole.. as you said, they can fix it, no sweat!
    Yes I agree, rickety at best, that's why I noted FD ladders and stokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    If the roof is too high for ladders I would rig a simple R/L systems with a tag line manned on the ground and lower the patient lashed in a Stokes basket.
    That was my first thought, but couldn't think of an easy way to rig a high-point. I'm not a tech rescue guy but I'd think you'd want something above the roof line so that you can load the rope before going over the edge. A bipod setup would be perfect, if available.

    Another thought: Could the guy be strapped to a stairchair and lowered down a ladder at a steeper angle?
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    We did this last year using a Stokes basket controlled from the top of a 35' ladder with a simple rigging system, and simply slowly slid the Stokes down between the rungs of the ladder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    We did this last year using a Stokes basket controlled from the top of a 35' ladder with a simple rigging system, and simply slowly slid the Stokes down between the rungs of the ladder.
    We've found that most stokes are wider then the distance between the rails. Even on our aerial. This is why we went to a Sked for those applications.

    For those of you who haven't actually drilled on this, you should. It would be an awkward moment when you realize that the stokes, she don't fit!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    We've found that most stokes are wider then the distance between the rails. Even on our aerial. This is why we went to a Sked for those applications.

    For those of you who haven't actually drilled on this, you should. It would be an awkward moment when you realize that the stokes, she don't fit!
    Yeah, the top fly section was a little questionable, but as it transitioned to the second fly, it wasn't so bad. Not a textbook operation, but we were forced to improvise with what we had.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    That was my first thought, but couldn't think of an easy way to rig a high-point. I'm not a tech rescue guy but I'd think you'd want something above the roof line so that you can load the rope before going over the edge. A bipod setup would be perfect, if available.

    Another thought: Could the guy be strapped to a stairchair and lowered down a ladder at a steeper angle?
    Honestly I dont I know that I would be concerned with just lowering the basket over the edge. Granted, a high point would be great if possible, but for this situation, lowering over the dge wouldn't be out of the question. For me anyway.

    I like the cutting the roof idea. You may be able to just carry them down the interior stairs after that.
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    For the purposes of making an edge transition without a high change of direction you can use 2 metal pike poles. (Do Not use those fiberglass or wooden pike poles) Use the pike poles as levers to ease the transition over the edge and then it becomes a simple lower. I've done this a few times and it actually works quite well when the guys on the poles are working together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    For the purposes of making an edge transition without a high change of direction you can use 2 metal pike poles. (Do Not use those fiberglass or wooden pike poles) Use the pike poles as levers to ease the transition over the edge and then it becomes a simple lower. I've done this a few times and it actually works quite well when the guys on the poles are working together.
    Pics? I think you're describing making a bipod out of two poles lashed together, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Pics? I think you're describing making a bipod out of two poles lashed together, right?
    No, I dont have pics of the operation but look at it like two parallel levers about 2/3rds the length of the stokes basket apart (basically where the shoulders and back of the knees of the victim are in the stokes.) Lay the metal poles flat on the ground and place the loaded stokes at the edge already rigged with belay and mainline. Also 2-40' peices of webbing girth hitched (use the middle of the webbing to make the hitch so you have 2-20' tails) on one rail of the stokes. Take one tail of the webbing and run it under the stokes and through the rail. The webbing is used to keep the stokes level during the edge transition. Now with one person on each pole and one person each on the webbing as well as the people on the main line and belay, begin lifting the poles to slide the stokes over the edge. As the poles are lifted the webbing tenders maintain level and lower the stokes into position with the main and belay being placed on some edge protection. This could work with parapet walls but works best with a flat roof and edge.

    Sorry if this isnt explained well. I will see if I can get pics later.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    Lay the metal poles flat on the ground and place the loaded stokes at the edge already rigged with belay and mainline.
    I think I got it. Key piece I was missing is that the poles start out laying flat and perpendicular to the edge. You said they were levers to angle the stokes over the edge but I was missing the connection.
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    Gotcha. We've done this several times with stokes edge transitions and it works well when the edge guy is the only one giving orders. If too many people start trying to give commands it gets messed up in a hurry.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    I like what voyager said. Around here is mainly 1-2 story ranch style houses and a 35' ladder at a flat angle and sliding them s\down in a stokes would work great. We could even set up a ladder on each side to send a firefighter down on both sides to steady the basket and help it if it gets stuck. I see a training drill in our future...

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    Default Roof rescue

    All these techniques are workable but also consider that many of the new houses around here (south Louisiana) are a 12:12 pitch. OSHA considers anything steeper than 4:12 to be a steep roof and appropriate fall protection will be needed for the rescuers. We certainly don't want to compound our problems by having a rescuer slide off the roof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rsqman View Post
    All these techniques are workable but also consider that many of the new houses around here (south Louisiana) are a 12:12 pitch. OSHA considers anything steeper than 4:12 to be a steep roof and appropriate fall protection will be needed for the rescuers. We certainly don't want to compound our problems by having a rescuer slide off the roof.
    Same thing with many of the new houses being built up here.
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    It realy all depends on the type of house, how many stories, pitch of roof, how far off the road the house is, access around the house for portable ladders, and the amount of manpower on scene. Size-up is key even for incidents like this one.
    Personaly I would call our county rescue team, they have the special equipment needed and the training to do the job. I would assist EMS gain access to patient and stabilize as best we can while sizing up the roof. If we had the means I would attempt with what we had at this point. Things we can do as a dept are the ladder slide with a stokes and rope, with a firefighter guiding the stokes down the ladder. Another way is to tie off the rope system to a chimney or an anchor that we secure to the ridgeline of the roof with bolts (roofers should have some hardware to use, may even have their safety lines tied into something already) and using a 2-1 system lower the stokes to the ground.
    With limited manpower I would attempt to use the "Elevator" technique with a large extension ladder. By wrapping the rope around both top and bottom rungs at least 3 times on the ladder you can tie off the stokes midline on one of the loops created, with tension on the line the stokes will slowly lower to the ground on the tension the 3 loops makes on the rungs like an elevator.
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    I wouldn't use a chimney as an anchor, unless it could be proven to be some super chimney.

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    I wouldn't use a chimney as an anchor, unless it could be proven to be some super chimney. They weren't ever meant to be used as such, and brick and mortar really isn't at its strongest against shear forces.

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