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Thread: Popularity of VES

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Alright then...



    Once again, I am not questioning anything you guys do up there. You have your ways AND THEY WORK FOR YOU. I have yet to call anyone else wrong on this subject. We do it different than you. You do it different than us. Turns out, both ways have been proven to work. The rest is nothing but debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    You sound like you would make a great safety officer. The beauty of the matter is that usually the first in company can get the VES performed before the S.O. arrives on scene.

    Like Taj said, talk to some guys who have actually done this instead of reading from a book.

    Even though Bull spelled it out to a T, I will do it again anyway, in steps:

    We will assume this is a second story VES.

    1. Arrive on scene.
    2. Occupant states victim is inside, at a specific location.
    3. Throw ladder to desired window, taking the glass in the process.
    4. Position tools on the highest ladder rung while watching conditons inside room. If it flashes or shows signs of immediate flashover, abandon VES and move on to another task. If conditions allow, move to step 5.
    5. Ascend ladder, take the rest of the window and sash.
    6. Look into the room and gather info on what you see. Look at the base of the window for someone who may be lying there.
    7. Sound the floor.
    8. Enter the room, leaving one tool propped out the window. This gives a reference point that can be seen from across the room as to where the exit is. It also lets other firefighters know you are searching the room. Now would be a good time to scan with a TIC if you have one. If a second firefighter is availabe, he should be waiting at the window on the tip of the ladder.
    9. Begin your search. Make your way around the room, eventually coming to the door. When you get there, search just outside it, and then close it. Make your way around the entire room.
    10. Once the search is complete, either exit with your victim or exit alone.

    Notice the steps that weren't mentioned:
    - Wait for 2 in 2 out manpower to be available.
    - Wait for a charged hose line.
    - Consider how taking thw window will affect fire spread.

    If taking the window causes the entire house to eventually burn, but we made a rescue in the process, OH WELL. If you honestly have to debate whether life safety or ventiliation effects are more important, I suggest you turn in your gear.
    Yeah, calling someone a safety sally because we are concerned about inside teams (you know, the way WE do it, PROPERLY staffed (if one more jerkoff says we are overstaffed I might actually lose my f*cking mind ) and saying that he is wrong for considering fire spread (LOL) sure isnt telling someone they are wrong. Nice touch with the "talk to someone who has done it, not just read about it".
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Maybe you should go back and quote it, because you are dead wrong. And AGAIN, when WE vent from the OV position, we consider it a vent for life AND a vent for fire, and our procedures have thousands of fires backing them up as a correct plan, so please drop the bullsh*t...you do it differently, congrats. Frankly, Im tired of this sh*t, we get attacked constantly here for not realizing the shortstaffed world.....now you are saying a tactic that we have used for over 100 years very successfully is wrong because you dont like the way its done. Tough f*cking sh*t. No wonder most of the good posters left.
    Not arguing with you, I'd like to learn.

    Is reopening the door an absolute? If not, are there criteria that determine it?

    I know this is a very particular question but if you were making a grab and exiting through the windo, do you re open the door before making your way out? Are you concerned about the loss of (even if just a slight) protection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Not arguing with you, I'd like to learn.

    Is reopening the door an absolute? If not, are there criteria that determine it?

    I know this is a very particular question but if you were making a grab and exiting through the windo, do you re open the door before making your way out? Are you concerned about the loss of (even if just a slight) protection.
    Too many variables to have a direct answer, but no, reopening the door is not an absolute, but I'd offer that its done most of the time, especially when the search was negative, and there are no issues with the hoseline advancement. Often, if the member entering the room has gotten there ahead of the line even entering the apartment (especially true at 5th and 6th floor fires), it might not even be necessary to shut the door to search the room, if the conditions allow. Thats why I said that VESing can be a combined "search for life and fire" type deal, when done properly. Venting out ahead of the hoseline will make worlds of difference to the interior team searching and for the members on the hoseline operating. Closing the only opening in the apt can have dramatic effects on the advancement of the hoseline, as well as for the interior and especially on the floors above.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 12-27-2011 at 07:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    so this is your apology for the misquote? Re-opening the door means I agree with the initial tactic of closing it to make the search of that room easier. After that is complete, if the door isnt reopened, you didnt vent, you just stopped the smoke from entering that room, and you are making it harder for the inside teams (the ones YOU said didnt exist, once again proving this wasnt just about two different ways of doing something, you were flat out telling people that the tactic was incorrect).
    We are just going to have to RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree on the basis that we (being my department(s) and yours) perform a tactic under the same name two different ways, for multiple reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Yeah, calling someone a safety sally because we are concerned about inside teams (you know, the way WE do it, PROPERLY staffed (if one more jerkoff says we are overstaffed I might actually lose my f*cking mind ) and saying that he is wrong for considering fire spread (LOL) sure isnt telling someone they are wrong. Nice touch with the "talk to someone who has done it, not just read about it".
    You conviniently left out his post before mine which basically told me I had no idea what I was talking about. I am not as worried about it though.
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    We are just going to have to RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree on the basis that we (being my department(s) and yours) perform a tactic under the same name two different ways, for multiple reasons.
    I refuse to respectfully disagree with anyone who will misquote what I say to attempt to make a point, or to accuse me or those in agreement with me of being safety sallies for being concerned with the members operating inside.



    You conviniently left out his post before mine which basically told me I had no idea what I was talking about. I am not as worried about it though.
    Oh, so responding to his immaturity with some of your own was the best you could do?

    P.S. Your post showed you didnt know what you were talking about, since you MOCKED him for being concerned about fire spread when VESing. You can blame it on "two different ways of performing the same tactic", which only points to you possibly having reading comprehension problems, or you can admit your posts were out of line, and learn how to respectfully disagree and tune out jakesdad when he turns into the insufferable blowhard on occasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    I refuse to respectfully disagree with anyone who will misquote what I say to attempt to make a point, or to accuse me or those in agreement with me of being safety sallies for being concerned with the members operating inside.





    Oh, so responding to his immaturity with some of your own was the best you could do?

    P.S. Your post showed you didnt know what you were talking about, since you MOCKED him for being concerned about fire spread when VESing. You can blame it on "two different ways of performing the same tactic", which only points to you possibly having reading comprehension problems, or you can admit your posts were out of line, and learn how to respectfully disagree and tune out jakesdad when he turns into the insufferable blowhard on occasion.
    So you can't agree that because of so many contributing factors, fire departments across the country can perform VES differently, using different steps and procedures, yet still accomplish the same goal? Or is your way the only way?

    If you can't respectfully disagree then so be it. Bit defending somone's arrogance just because "that's the way he is every now and then" only shows that you and he are that much more alike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    So you can't agree that because of so many contributing factors, fire departments across the country can perform VES differently, using different steps and procedures, yet still accomplish the same goal? Or is your way the only way?

    If you can't respectfully disagree then so be it. Bit defending somone's arrogance just because "that's the way he is every now and then" only shows that you and he are that much more alike.
    so, chalk it up to reading comprehension? I never commented on anyone else's tactics, only on your comments ABOUT our tactics. I understand pretty well how understaffed depts work, and using VES in any way to help rescue otherwise unreachable victims is a big positive in my my book.

    And I didnt defend anyone, I told you to stop "but he hit me first" if you wish to be taken seriously in this conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    I'd like to point out that we broke the window from the ladder after looking inside.
    WE broke the window ? Yall really take that team work serious.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Too many variables to have a direct answer, but no, reopening the door is not an absolute, but I'd offer that its done most of the time, especially when the search was negative, and there are no issues with the hoseline advancement. Often, if the member entering the room has gotten there ahead of the line even entering the apartment (especially true at 5th and 6th floor fires), it might not even be necessary to shut the door to search the room, if the conditions allow. Thats why I said that VESing can be a combined "search for life and fire" type deal, when done properly. Venting out ahead of the hoseline will make worlds of difference to the interior team searching and for the members on the hoseline operating. Closing the only opening in the apt can have dramatic effects on the advancement of the hoseline, as well as for the interior and especially on the floors above.
    I had never thought about it that way. You have a good point.

    By the way "your over staffed" lol
    Bring enough hose.

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    NYCKFTBL : Please refer to my post on page 12 ( post # 227 ). It's not a loaded question.....i'm just trying to learn something here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    I'm going to summarize some things here, for people LESS familiar with VES.

    It can be used effectively for short-staffed fires and for way overstaffed fires where you've got a bunch of lawn shepherds and people with no assignments.

    VES is a great tactic for short staffed fires where your choices are between mounting an effective rescue or trying to put an attack line in place. When you can't do both at the same time, priority goes to rescue. In that case, entering through the front door, going down halls, and trying to complete a search and come back out the same way without any protection on your egress is not all that great an idea. VES puts you immediately in the areas where you are most likely to find victims, based upon your size-up. It gives you a way in and a way out. It makes the best use of limited staffing, as it can be done with one person, two if you've got them.

    When you've got loads of people, this tactic is still fantastic in certain situations. If the location and extent of the fire makes a search through the main entryways impractical, VES shortens the time it takes to get to likely victim locations. On apartments and large occupancies, it can be done in conjunction with a "traditional" search to save time. Particularly when there are apartments or offices to be searched on the interior and exterior of a building, crews can perform a normal search from the inside, and other crews can VES from the outside.

    One thing that has been confused here is the spread of fire. VES is NOT done to vent for fire. You can vent for fire or vent for life. VES is venting for life. If you cannot get to the door to the room you've entered, you have just vented for fire, and maybe not in a beneficial manner. The reason you close the door is so that even though you broke a window to get in, you haven't changed the overall movement of fire, but you have made the conditions in that room better for searching and victim survivability. Venting for life. You have NOT made the overall conditions better for fire spread and suppression operations.

    As to peeking in before you break the glass- when would you actually choose NOT to break the glass for VES? You've already decided that it's a likely victim location based on your size-up. This means that you don't have fire showing from that window, and the location is more likely to be occupied. If there's fire in the room that's not visible from the outside, it's either already broken the window or it will soon. You're not going to do a heck of a lot to make it worse if it's already spread to that spot. And if it's the seat of the fire, it's going to need to be vented anyways.

    Basically, I cannot envision a scenario where you would pick a spot for VES, and then get to the top of the ladder and call it off based upon what you see through the window. I CAN envision plenty of scenarios where using the ladder saves time with limited manpower. It also saves effort, especially with metal framed windows. It also GIVES you time- time to let the smoke light off if it IS going to do that. If you take it from the top of the ladder, you're less likely to give the room time to clear of heat and unburned byproducts before entering.


    Here's something to argue about- head-first or foot-first? I've taken truck ops classes where one or the other was taught. The head-first class taught that you enter and leave head-first. The reason is that you always want to stay as low as possible, planning for the worst case of heat and/or flash/rollover. If you always go headfirst, in and out, you simplify your decisionmaking. You don't have to pick whether you do it one way or another based on conditions- you always do it the same.

    The foot-first argument is that you lead with your foot when entering, so that you can quickly exit if things go wrong mid-entrance. I've done both, and you cannot stay as low going foot-first, unless the window is a large picture window that allows you to lay down on the sill while you enter. Otherwise, your head will be higher than your body going in. Headfirst exit is also a lot easier and usually quicker. It just takes a lot of practice to do smoothly. It works no matter the sill height or the firefighter height. I'm 5' 11", and with the loss of flexibility from turnout gear, I've certainly had some problems getting in and out of high sills on some buildings.
    Honestly, do you have that pesky thing called wind? Engine companies never have water problems? I've experienced both, so I can imagine a scenario that includes the two above.

    Look, no one has said it isn't easier or faster to break a window with a ladder tip. As has been pointed out, it is an alternate method. Yes taking it with the tip allows the room to cool off slightly. However, it is still venting for fire until the door to the room is shut.

    Due to the fact that it is venting for fire until the door is shut, the members inside should have the final decision on when the window is vented. Yes, you are making things easier for yourself by venting the room prior to you entering it, but at the same time you are making things worse for the engine company.

    By all means, conduct VES as you will. But if done incorrectly and members are hurt, the true safety sallies will come out in force and probably rain down more "restrictions" and NFPA "industry standards". Just keep that in mind also.
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEENGINEGOES View Post
    nyckftbl: how do you guys do it? Do you take the window from the ground with the tip of the ladder or do you throw the ladder, climb it and then take the window with your tool? Or is there no real "policy" on it so it becomes a matter of personal preference? I'm well aware of your staffing levels and that what you do is not what others may do but i would like to hear what your opinions are, what you do and why. If you're willing, be as specific as you wish. Thanks


    5.2.1 Portable Ladder may be placed at side of window.
    A. Insures that member is not hit by falling glass.
    B. Permits him to operate at different heights for complete removal of sash
    without undue reaching and stretching.
    C. Permits him to step off ladder directly on the sill for entry and search.
    D. If it is necessary to remove a victim, the ladder must be repositioned at the
    sill level by the butt man. In the case where the roof man is working alone
    he shall use his Handie Talkie to call for assistance.

    Note: An alternate method would be to vent the window as in 5.1.3 and/or 5.1.5,
    then lower ladder to sill level to facilitate entry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    I had never thought about it that way. You have a good point.

    By the way "your over staffed" lol
    I thought he was over-staph'd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    What'd you see when you looked in?
    smoke and what looked like a teenage girls bedroom with Twilight stuff on the walls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    Honestly, do you have that pesky thing called wind? Engine companies never have water problems? I've experienced both, so I can imagine a scenario that includes the two above.

    Look, no one has said it isn't easier or faster to break a window with a ladder tip. As has been pointed out, it is an alternate method. Yes taking it with the tip allows the room to cool off slightly. However, it is still venting for fire until the door to the room is shut.

    Due to the fact that it is venting for fire until the door is shut, the members inside should have the final decision on when the window is vented. Yes, you are making things easier for yourself by venting the room prior to you entering it, but at the same time you are making things worse for the engine company.

    By all means, conduct VES as you will. But if done incorrectly and members are hurt, the true safety sallies will come out in force and probably rain down more "restrictions" and NFPA "industry standards". Just keep that in mind also.

    But doesn't that make cOmmunication more important? *Not arguing your post, you've brought great points* If you're looking through a Window to make sure your attack company isn't in the hall way, don't you have bigger problems? What if they're 5 foot from the door and you vent because you didn't see them? I understand we're all operating differently but even as I agree 100% on giving consideration to interior crews, using line
    Of sight in a window is a poor execution of that. I try to have a very good grasp of where they
    are before I get my ladder.

    Side question:

    On multistory buildings, we throw ladders to multiple windows. Our SOPs have us throw ladders opposite side of the fire and/or rooms occupied by interior crews. We stick about a foot of the portable into the window to assist the crew in finding its egress. In your opinion, are we recklessly venting or are we providing great means of egress.


    Obviously, conditions and variables dictate our actions but in general, what do you guys think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    5.2.1 Portable Ladder may be placed at side of window.
    A. Insures that member is not hit by falling glass.
    B. Permits him to operate at different heights for complete removal of sash
    without undue reaching and stretching.
    C. Permits him to step off ladder directly on the sill for entry and search.
    D. If it is necessary to remove a victim, the ladder must be repositioned at the
    sill level by the butt man. In the case where the roof man is working alone
    he shall use his Handie Talkie to call for assistance.

    Note: An alternate method would be to vent the window as in 5.1.3 and/or 5.1.5,
    then lower ladder to sill level to facilitate entry.
    Seriously, VES is meant to done RAPIDLY. If I find a victim and I have to wait for someone else to come move the ladder how is that RAPID? If manpower is so short you placed the ladder yourself and no one was butting it who in the hell is going to come and move the ladder? Because obviously they are busy doing other tasks. If I placed the ladder myself, with no one to butt it, I would NEVER, let me repeat that NEVER, place a ladder in such a manner that it had to be moved in order to remove a victim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    But doesn't that make communication more important? *Not arguing your post, you've brought great points*
    Communication is important. What many forget with VES is that the members already operating on the interior are the ones that need to be communicated with. There situation will be key in whether VES is conducted or delayed.


    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    If you're looking through a Window to make sure your attack company isn't in the hall way, don't you have bigger problems? What if they're 5 foot from the door and you vent because you didn't see them? I understand we're all operating differently but even as I agree 100% on giving consideration to interior crews, using line
    Of sight in a window is a poor execution of that. I try to have a very good grasp of where they
    are before I get my ladder.
    You are looking inside for more than the crews. You are attempting to see conditions on the inside. Can you see across the room under the smoke layer? Can you see if there is a room door? Maybe see where the bed/furniture is at. Stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Side question:

    On multistory buildings, we throw ladders to multiple windows. Our SOPs have us throw ladders opposite side of the fire and/or rooms occupied by interior crews. We stick about a foot of the portable into the window to assist the crew in finding its egress. In your opinion, are we recklessly venting or are we providing great means of egress.

    Obviously, conditions and variables dictate our actions but in general, what do you guys think?
    In my opinion, if you are randomly breaking windows and putting the ladder tips in, that would be reckless. You would be venting for fire and introducing air into the structure without coordination.

    We place the ladders to the sill and announce on the radio where they are at, but leave the windows intact.
    Last edited by JohnVBFD; 12-28-2011 at 12:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    In my opinion, if you are randomly breaking windows and putting the ladder tips in, that would be reckless. You would be venting for fire and introducing air into the structure without coordination.

    Who said anything about RANDOMLY doing anything? Geez Dude, it sounds like you just want to thow out irrelevant nonsense to stir the pot.

    VES is anything but random. You go to the window, or windows, that have the highest probability of victims being in that room. You don't break any windows that you don't intend on entering. The sad truth that you and another poster here can't seem to get through your heads is it makes absolutely not one bit of difference whether you break the window with the axe or the tip of the ladder. Either way you are changing the air currents in the room.


    We place the ladders to the sill and announce on the radio where they are at, but leave the windows intact.

    The you AREN'T VESing are you? Geezus please tell me you aren't really this dense.
    So answer this question for me...If you place the ladder, climb up, take a look, you see fire at the ceiling in the hallway, and a victim on the floor, do you VES and go after the victim or do you let them die because you might pull the fire into the room? This is a straight forward direct question so answer it that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Who said anything about RANDOMLY doing anything? Geez Dude, it sounds like you just want to thow out irrelevant nonsense to stir the pot.

    VES is anything but random. You go to the window, or windows, that have the highest probability of victims being in that room. You don't break any windows that you don't intend on entering. The sad truth that you and another poster here can't seem to get through your heads is it makes absolutely not one bit of difference whether you break the window with the axe or the tip of the ladder. Either way you are changing the air currents in the room.
    Since you are one to harp on reading comprehension, maybe you should work on your own and re-read the message I answered. As when he asked what my opinion was on something totally unrelated to VES was asked and answered, you felt the need to tie it into the VES discussion. You are being that obtuse old guy arguing that the sun rises in the west just to be right.



    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So answer this question for me...If you place the ladder, climb up, take a look, you see fire at the ceiling in the hallway, and a victim on the floor, do you VES and go after the victim or do you let them die because you might pull the fire into the room? This is a straight forward direct question so answer it that way.
    I would notify the engine company that I have a victim in the room and am ready to take the window. If the officer on the line feels he has the situation under control and radios he's good, take it, clear it, shut the door, get the victim out, open the door exit.

    However if the Officer on the line is experiencing problems that could endanger his firefighters, I would not endanger them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So answer this question for me...If you place the ladder, climb up, take a look, you see fire at the ceiling in the hallway, and a victim on the floor, do you VES and go after the victim or do you let them die because you might pull the fire into the room? This is a straight forward direct question so answer it that way.
    Jesus man...go read the question that his response was to. You and i are usually on the same page but youve lost it here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post



    I would notify the engine company that I have a victim in the room and am ready to take the window. If the officer on the line feels he has the situation under control and radios he's good, take it, clear it, shut the door, get the victim out, open the door exit.

    However if the Officer on the line is experiencing problems that could endanger his firefighters, I would not endanger them.
    Same scenario as Fyred posted, but this time there is no engine company working inside. How, if at all, would you change your tactics?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Same scenario as Fyred posted, but this time there is no engine company working inside. How, if at all, would you change your tactics?
    lol .
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    Since you are one to harp on reading comprehension, maybe you should work on your own and re-read the message I answered. As when he asked what my opinion was on something totally unrelated to VES was asked and answered, you felt the need to tie it into the VES discussion. You are being that obtuse old guy arguing that the sun rises in the west just to be right.

    I went back and reread it. You are right, I misread your post. I apologize for improperly answering your post.





    I would notify the engine company that I have a victim in the room and am ready to take the window. If the officer on the line feels he has the situation under control and radios he's good, take it, clear it, shut the door, get the victim out, open the door exit.

    However if the Officer on the line is experiencing problems that could endanger his firefighters, I would not endanger them.


    Interesting answer...Mine would have been to tell the company having difficulties to back out so I could attempt to rescue the victim.
    I'm not sure I agree with opening the door. If the hall was heating up, or pushing heavy smoke, I just might leave it closed to ensure my safe exit.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Jesus man...go read the question that his response was to. You and i are usually on the same page but youve lost it here.

    You are right I went back and reread it. OOOOPS!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    I love this thread...

    I've never actually performed a VES from a ladder. Would I do it, in a heartbeat. It is another tool in the toolbox. It is not routinely done, however.

    I've done a ESV many times.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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