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12-27-2011, 05:02 PM #241Stay Safe
“Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
- Capt. Marc Cox CFD
Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
12-27-2011, 05:18 PM #242
I'm going to summarize some things here, for people LESS familiar with VES.
It can be used effectively for short-staffed fires and for way overstaffed fires where you've got a bunch of lawn shepherds and people with no assignments.
VES is a great tactic for short staffed fires where your choices are between mounting an effective rescue or trying to put an attack line in place. When you can't do both at the same time, priority goes to rescue. In that case, entering through the front door, going down halls, and trying to complete a search and come back out the same way without any protection on your egress is not all that great an idea. VES puts you immediately in the areas where you are most likely to find victims, based upon your size-up. It gives you a way in and a way out. It makes the best use of limited staffing, as it can be done with one person, two if you've got them.
When you've got loads of people, this tactic is still fantastic in certain situations. If the location and extent of the fire makes a search through the main entryways impractical, VES shortens the time it takes to get to likely victim locations. On apartments and large occupancies, it can be done in conjunction with a "traditional" search to save time. Particularly when there are apartments or offices to be searched on the interior and exterior of a building, crews can perform a normal search from the inside, and other crews can VES from the outside.
One thing that has been confused here is the spread of fire. VES is NOT done to vent for fire. You can vent for fire or vent for life. VES is venting for life. If you cannot get to the door to the room you've entered, you have just vented for fire, and maybe not in a beneficial manner. The reason you close the door is so that even though you broke a window to get in, you haven't changed the overall movement of fire, but you have made the conditions in that room better for searching and victim survivability. Venting for life. You have NOT made the overall conditions better for fire spread and suppression operations.
As to peeking in before you break the glass- when would you actually choose NOT to break the glass for VES? You've already decided that it's a likely victim location based on your size-up. This means that you don't have fire showing from that window, and the location is more likely to be occupied. If there's fire in the room that's not visible from the outside, it's either already broken the window or it will soon. You're not going to do a heck of a lot to make it worse if it's already spread to that spot. And if it's the seat of the fire, it's going to need to be vented anyways.
Basically, I cannot envision a scenario where you would pick a spot for VES, and then get to the top of the ladder and call it off based upon what you see through the window. I CAN envision plenty of scenarios where using the ladder saves time with limited manpower. It also saves effort, especially with metal framed windows. It also GIVES you time- time to let the smoke light off if it IS going to do that. If you take it from the top of the ladder, you're less likely to give the room time to clear of heat and unburned byproducts before entering.
Here's something to argue about- head-first or foot-first? I've taken truck ops classes where one or the other was taught. The head-first class taught that you enter and leave head-first. The reason is that you always want to stay as low as possible, planning for the worst case of heat and/or flash/rollover. If you always go headfirst, in and out, you simplify your decisionmaking. You don't have to pick whether you do it one way or another based on conditions- you always do it the same.
The foot-first argument is that you lead with your foot when entering, so that you can quickly exit if things go wrong mid-entrance. I've done both, and you cannot stay as low going foot-first, unless the window is a large picture window that allows you to lay down on the sill while you enter. Otherwise, your head will be higher than your body going in. Headfirst exit is also a lot easier and usually quicker. It just takes a lot of practice to do smoothly. It works no matter the sill height or the firefighter height. I'm 5' 11", and with the loss of flexibility from turnout gear, I've certainly had some problems getting in and out of high sills on some buildings.
12-27-2011, 05:42 PM #243"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey
12-27-2011, 05:47 PM #244
12-27-2011, 05:48 PM #245
12-27-2011, 05:52 PM #246
Last edited by nyckftbl; 12-27-2011 at 05:59 PM.Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 05:56 PM #247"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey
12-27-2011, 06:02 PM #248
Notice how after he comes out after making the grab...there is still this weird brownish blackish grey stuff coming out of the window. I think that might be smoke. Pretty indicative of him RE-opening the door to that room after the search was complete (or more likely, leaving it open to begin with, basing his decision on experience and where the engine was), to help the engine company advance to extinguish the fire. Apparently multitasking is a difficult concept to some here....but yes, venting for life and venting for fire CAN be accomplished with the same act, if done correctly.Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 06:06 PM #249
12-27-2011, 06:10 PM #250Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 06:13 PM #251Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 06:14 PM #252
Is reopening the door an absolute? If not, are there criteria that determine it?
I know this is a very particular question but if you were making a grab and exiting through the windo, do you re open the door before making your way out? Are you concerned about the loss of (even if just a slight) protection."I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey
12-27-2011, 06:19 PM #253
Last edited by nyckftbl; 12-27-2011 at 06:22 PM.Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 06:31 PM #254
12-27-2011, 06:36 PM #255
You conviniently left out his post before mine which basically told me I had no idea what I was talking about. I am not as worried about it though.
P.S. Your post showed you didnt know what you were talking about, since you MOCKED him for being concerned about fire spread when VESing. You can blame it on "two different ways of performing the same tactic", which only points to you possibly having reading comprehension problems, or you can admit your posts were out of line, and learn how to respectfully disagree and tune out jakesdad when he turns into the insufferable blowhard on occasion.Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 06:54 PM #256
If you can't respectfully disagree then so be it. Bit defending somone's arrogance just because "that's the way he is every now and then" only shows that you and he are that much more alike.
12-27-2011, 07:04 PM #257
And I didnt defend anyone, I told you to stop "but he hit me first" if you wish to be taken seriously in this conversation.Proud East Coast Traditionalist.
12-27-2011, 07:27 PM #258
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
12-27-2011, 08:06 PM #259
12-27-2011, 08:50 PM #260
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
NYCKFTBL : Please refer to my post on page 12 ( post # 227 ). It's not a loaded question.....i'm just trying to learn something here.
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