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Thread: Popularity of VES

  1. #241
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
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    I'm going to summarize some things here, for people LESS familiar with VES.

    It can be used effectively for short-staffed fires and for way overstaffed fires where you've got a bunch of lawn shepherds and people with no assignments.

    VES is a great tactic for short staffed fires where your choices are between mounting an effective rescue or trying to put an attack line in place. When you can't do both at the same time, priority goes to rescue. In that case, entering through the front door, going down halls, and trying to complete a search and come back out the same way without any protection on your egress is not all that great an idea. VES puts you immediately in the areas where you are most likely to find victims, based upon your size-up. It gives you a way in and a way out. It makes the best use of limited staffing, as it can be done with one person, two if you've got them.

    When you've got loads of people, this tactic is still fantastic in certain situations. If the location and extent of the fire makes a search through the main entryways impractical, VES shortens the time it takes to get to likely victim locations. On apartments and large occupancies, it can be done in conjunction with a "traditional" search to save time. Particularly when there are apartments or offices to be searched on the interior and exterior of a building, crews can perform a normal search from the inside, and other crews can VES from the outside.

    One thing that has been confused here is the spread of fire. VES is NOT done to vent for fire. You can vent for fire or vent for life. VES is venting for life. If you cannot get to the door to the room you've entered, you have just vented for fire, and maybe not in a beneficial manner. The reason you close the door is so that even though you broke a window to get in, you haven't changed the overall movement of fire, but you have made the conditions in that room better for searching and victim survivability. Venting for life. You have NOT made the overall conditions better for fire spread and suppression operations.

    As to peeking in before you break the glass- when would you actually choose NOT to break the glass for VES? You've already decided that it's a likely victim location based on your size-up. This means that you don't have fire showing from that window, and the location is more likely to be occupied. If there's fire in the room that's not visible from the outside, it's either already broken the window or it will soon. You're not going to do a heck of a lot to make it worse if it's already spread to that spot. And if it's the seat of the fire, it's going to need to be vented anyways.

    Basically, I cannot envision a scenario where you would pick a spot for VES, and then get to the top of the ladder and call it off based upon what you see through the window. I CAN envision plenty of scenarios where using the ladder saves time with limited manpower. It also saves effort, especially with metal framed windows. It also GIVES you time- time to let the smoke light off if it IS going to do that. If you take it from the top of the ladder, you're less likely to give the room time to clear of heat and unburned byproducts before entering.


    Here's something to argue about- head-first or foot-first? I've taken truck ops classes where one or the other was taught. The head-first class taught that you enter and leave head-first. The reason is that you always want to stay as low as possible, planning for the worst case of heat and/or flash/rollover. If you always go headfirst, in and out, you simplify your decisionmaking. You don't have to pick whether you do it one way or another based on conditions- you always do it the same.

    The foot-first argument is that you lead with your foot when entering, so that you can quickly exit if things go wrong mid-entrance. I've done both, and you cannot stay as low going foot-first, unless the window is a large picture window that allows you to lay down on the sill while you enter. Otherwise, your head will be higher than your body going in. Headfirst exit is also a lot easier and usually quicker. It just takes a lot of practice to do smoothly. It works no matter the sill height or the firefighter height. I'm 5' 11", and with the loss of flexibility from turnout gear, I've certainly had some problems getting in and out of high sills on some buildings.

  3. #243
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    I'm going to summarize some things here, for people LESS familiar with VES.

    It can be used effectively for short-staffed fires and for way overstaffed fires where you've got a bunch of lawn shepherds and people with no assignments.

    VES is a great tactic for short staffed fires where your choices are between mounting an effective rescue or trying to put an attack line in place. When you can't do both at the same time, priority goes to rescue. In that case, entering through the front door, going down halls, and trying to complete a search and come back out the same way without any protection on your egress is not all that great an idea. VES puts you immediately in the areas where you are most likely to find victims, based upon your size-up. It gives you a way in and a way out. It makes the best use of limited staffing, as it can be done with one person, two if you've got them.

    When you've got loads of people, this tactic is still fantastic in certain situations. If the location and extent of the fire makes a search through the main entryways impractical, VES shortens the time it takes to get to likely victim locations. On apartments and large occupancies, it can be done in conjunction with a "traditional" search to save time. Particularly when there are apartments or offices to be searched on the interior and exterior of a building, crews can perform a normal search from the inside, and other crews can VES from the outside.

    One thing that has been confused here is the spread of fire. VES is NOT done to vent for fire. You can vent for fire or vent for life. VES is venting for life. If you cannot get to the door to the room you've entered, you have just vented for fire, and maybe not in a beneficial manner. The reason you close the door is so that even though you broke a window to get in, you haven't changed the overall movement of fire, but you have made the conditions in that room better for searching and victim survivability. Venting for life. You have NOT made the overall conditions better for fire spread and suppression operations.

    As to peeking in before you break the glass- when would you actually choose NOT to break the glass for VES? You've already decided that it's a likely victim location based on your size-up. This means that you don't have fire showing from that window, and the location is more likely to be occupied. If there's fire in the room that's not visible from the outside, it's either already broken the window or it will soon. You're not going to do a heck of a lot to make it worse if it's already spread to that spot. And if it's the seat of the fire, it's going to need to be vented anyways.

    Basically, I cannot envision a scenario where you would pick a spot for VES, and then get to the top of the ladder and call it off based upon what you see through the window. I CAN envision plenty of scenarios where using the ladder saves time with limited manpower. It also saves effort, especially with metal framed windows. It also GIVES you time- time to let the smoke light off if it IS going to do that. If you take it from the top of the ladder, you're less likely to give the room time to clear of heat and unburned byproducts before entering.


    Here's something to argue about- head-first or foot-first? I've taken truck ops classes where one or the other was taught. The head-first class taught that you enter and leave head-first. The reason is that you always want to stay as low as possible, planning for the worst case of heat and/or flash/rollover. If you always go headfirst, in and out, you simplify your decisionmaking. You don't have to pick whether you do it one way or another based on conditions- you always do it the same.

    The foot-first argument is that you lead with your foot when entering, so that you can quickly exit if things go wrong mid-entrance. I've done both, and you cannot stay as low going foot-first, unless the window is a large picture window that allows you to lay down on the sill while you enter. Otherwise, your head will be higher than your body going in. Headfirst exit is also a lot easier and usually quicker. It just takes a lot of practice to do smoothly. It works no matter the sill height or the firefighter height. I'm 5' 11", and with the loss of flexibility from turnout gear, I've certainly had some problems getting in and out of high sills on some buildings.
    Great post.


    On head-first vs feet first, I'm feet first all the way. If you have to get low, no one is alive in that room. I'm a firm believer in Ciampo's method of not committing fully at the sill by diving in.
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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post

    One thing that has been confused here is the spread of fire. VES is NOT done to vent for fire. You can vent for fire or vent for life. VES is venting for life. If you cannot get to the door to the room you've entered, you have just vented for fire, and maybe not in a beneficial manner. The reason you close the door is so that even though you broke a window to get in, you haven't changed the overall movement of fire, but you have made the conditions in that room better for searching and victim survivability. Venting for life. You have NOT made the overall conditions better for fire spread and suppression operations.
    THANK YOU! I am so glad someone else understands this. Without going back and quoting, another poster believes that by shutting the door you have taken the "V" out of VES, when in reality you have ventilated just what you wanted to at the time: the room that is being searched.

    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    As to peeking in before you break the glass- when would you actually choose NOT to break the glass for VES? You've already decided that it's a likely victim location based on your size-up. This means that you don't have fire showing from that window, and the location is more likely to be occupied. If there's fire in the room that's not visible from the outside, it's either already broken the window or it will soon. You're not going to do a heck of a lot to make it worse if it's already spread to that spot. And if it's the seat of the fire, it's going to need to be vented anyways.

    Basically, I cannot envision a scenario where you would pick a spot for VES, and then get to the top of the ladder and call it off based upon what you see through the window. I CAN envision plenty of scenarios where using the ladder saves time with limited manpower. It also saves effort, especially with metal framed windows. It also GIVES you time- time to let the smoke light off if it IS going to do that. If you take it from the top of the ladder, you're less likely to give the room time to clear of heat and unburned byproducts before entering.
    This question has been asked more than once so far and to my knowledge we have yet to get an answer for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    Here's something to argue about- head-first or foot-first? I've taken truck ops classes where one or the other was taught. The head-first class taught that you enter and leave head-first. The reason is that you always want to stay as low as possible, planning for the worst case of heat and/or flash/rollover. If you always go headfirst, in and out, you simplify your decisionmaking. You don't have to pick whether you do it one way or another based on conditions- you always do it the same.

    The foot-first argument is that you lead with your foot when entering, so that you can quickly exit if things go wrong mid-entrance. I've done both, and you cannot stay as low going foot-first, unless the window is a large picture window that allows you to lay down on the sill while you enter. Otherwise, your head will be higher than your body going in. Headfirst exit is also a lot easier and usually quicker. It just takes a lot of practice to do smoothly. It works no matter the sill height or the firefighter height. I'm 5' 11", and with the loss of flexibility from turnout gear, I've certainly had some problems getting in and out of high sills on some buildings.
    Head first for me, and not just during VES. If you use a tool to sound the floor (which you should do during either method of entry) going head first is no problem. It is a little easier for us taller guys (I am 6'0") since our arms catch us a whole lot quicker than the shorter fellas. I have gotten in the habit of using this method in training any time I go through a window, be it from the ground or from a ladder. Throwing your legs out to each side to "catch" the window frame helps you control your speed some too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Great post.


    On head-first vs feet first, I'm feet first all the way. If you have to get low, no one is alive in that room. I'm a firm believer in Ciampo's method of not committing fully at the sill by diving in.
    Taj,

    You have a video for this? Not sure I am familliar with the method you're talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    THANK YOU! I am so glad someone else understands this. Without going back and quoting, another poster believes that by shutting the door you have taken the "V" out of VES, when in reality you have ventilated just what you wanted to at the time: the room that is being searched.
    Maybe you should go back and quote it, because you are dead wrong. And AGAIN, when WE vent from the OV position, we consider it a vent for life AND a vent for fire, and our procedures have thousands of fires backing them up as a correct plan, so please drop the bullsh*t...you do it differently, congrats. Frankly, Im tired of this sh*t, we get attacked constantly here for not realizing the shortstaffed world.....now you are saying a tactic that we have used for over 100 years very successfully is wrong because you dont like the way its done. Tough f*cking sh*t. No wonder most of the good posters left.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 12-27-2011 at 05:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Taj,

    You have a video for this? Not sure I am familliar with the method you're talking about.
    It was a class but I'm fairly sure FE has it on one of their training minutes. Headfirst works but after enough use, I just feel more comfortable going foot first. I prefer to keep my orientation as much as possible.
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_XFc...eature=related

    Notice how after he comes out after making the grab...there is still this weird brownish blackish grey stuff coming out of the window. I think that might be smoke. Pretty indicative of him RE-opening the door to that room after the search was complete (or more likely, leaving it open to begin with, basing his decision on experience and where the engine was), to help the engine company advance to extinguish the fire. Apparently multitasking is a difficult concept to some here....but yes, venting for life and venting for fire CAN be accomplished with the same act, if done correctly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Maybe you should go back and quote it, because you are dead wrong. And AGAIN, when WE vent from the OV position, we consider it a vent for life AND a vent for fire, and our procedures have thousands of fires backing them up as a correct plan, so please drop the bullsh*t...you do it differently, congrats. Frankly, Im tired of this sh*t, we get attacked constantly here for not realizing the shortstaffed world.....now you are saying a tactic that we have used for over 100 years very successfully is wrong because you dont like the way its done. Tough f*cking sh*t. No wonder most of the good posters left.
    Alright then...

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    If you dont reopen the door before you leave, all you did was "ES".
    Once again, I am not questioning anything you guys do up there. You have your ways AND THEY WORK FOR YOU. I have yet to call anyone else wrong on this subject. We do it different than you. You do it different than us. Turns out, both ways have been proven to work. The rest is nothing but debate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Alright then...



    Once again, I am not questioning anything you guys do up there. You have your ways AND THEY WORK FOR YOU. I have yet to call anyone else wrong on this subject. We do it different than you. You do it different than us. Turns out, both ways have been proven to work. The rest is nothing but debate.
    so this is your apology for the misquote? Re-opening the door means I agree with the initial tactic of closing it to make the search of that room easier. After that is complete, if the door isnt reopened, you didnt vent, you just stopped the smoke from entering that room, and you are making it harder for the inside teams (the ones YOU said didnt exist, once again proving this wasnt just about two different ways of doing something, you were flat out telling people that the tactic was incorrect).
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Alright then...



    Once again, I am not questioning anything you guys do up there. You have your ways AND THEY WORK FOR YOU. I have yet to call anyone else wrong on this subject. We do it different than you. You do it different than us. Turns out, both ways have been proven to work. The rest is nothing but debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    You sound like you would make a great safety officer. The beauty of the matter is that usually the first in company can get the VES performed before the S.O. arrives on scene.

    Like Taj said, talk to some guys who have actually done this instead of reading from a book.

    Even though Bull spelled it out to a T, I will do it again anyway, in steps:

    We will assume this is a second story VES.

    1. Arrive on scene.
    2. Occupant states victim is inside, at a specific location.
    3. Throw ladder to desired window, taking the glass in the process.
    4. Position tools on the highest ladder rung while watching conditons inside room. If it flashes or shows signs of immediate flashover, abandon VES and move on to another task. If conditions allow, move to step 5.
    5. Ascend ladder, take the rest of the window and sash.
    6. Look into the room and gather info on what you see. Look at the base of the window for someone who may be lying there.
    7. Sound the floor.
    8. Enter the room, leaving one tool propped out the window. This gives a reference point that can be seen from across the room as to where the exit is. It also lets other firefighters know you are searching the room. Now would be a good time to scan with a TIC if you have one. If a second firefighter is availabe, he should be waiting at the window on the tip of the ladder.
    9. Begin your search. Make your way around the room, eventually coming to the door. When you get there, search just outside it, and then close it. Make your way around the entire room.
    10. Once the search is complete, either exit with your victim or exit alone.

    Notice the steps that weren't mentioned:
    - Wait for 2 in 2 out manpower to be available.
    - Wait for a charged hose line.
    - Consider how taking thw window will affect fire spread.

    If taking the window causes the entire house to eventually burn, but we made a rescue in the process, OH WELL. If you honestly have to debate whether life safety or ventiliation effects are more important, I suggest you turn in your gear.
    Yeah, calling someone a safety sally because we are concerned about inside teams (you know, the way WE do it, PROPERLY staffed (if one more jerkoff says we are overstaffed I might actually lose my f*cking mind ) and saying that he is wrong for considering fire spread (LOL) sure isnt telling someone they are wrong. Nice touch with the "talk to someone who has done it, not just read about it".
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Maybe you should go back and quote it, because you are dead wrong. And AGAIN, when WE vent from the OV position, we consider it a vent for life AND a vent for fire, and our procedures have thousands of fires backing them up as a correct plan, so please drop the bullsh*t...you do it differently, congrats. Frankly, Im tired of this sh*t, we get attacked constantly here for not realizing the shortstaffed world.....now you are saying a tactic that we have used for over 100 years very successfully is wrong because you dont like the way its done. Tough f*cking sh*t. No wonder most of the good posters left.
    Not arguing with you, I'd like to learn.

    Is reopening the door an absolute? If not, are there criteria that determine it?

    I know this is a very particular question but if you were making a grab and exiting through the windo, do you re open the door before making your way out? Are you concerned about the loss of (even if just a slight) protection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Not arguing with you, I'd like to learn.

    Is reopening the door an absolute? If not, are there criteria that determine it?

    I know this is a very particular question but if you were making a grab and exiting through the windo, do you re open the door before making your way out? Are you concerned about the loss of (even if just a slight) protection.
    Too many variables to have a direct answer, but no, reopening the door is not an absolute, but I'd offer that its done most of the time, especially when the search was negative, and there are no issues with the hoseline advancement. Often, if the member entering the room has gotten there ahead of the line even entering the apartment (especially true at 5th and 6th floor fires), it might not even be necessary to shut the door to search the room, if the conditions allow. Thats why I said that VESing can be a combined "search for life and fire" type deal, when done properly. Venting out ahead of the hoseline will make worlds of difference to the interior team searching and for the members on the hoseline operating. Closing the only opening in the apt can have dramatic effects on the advancement of the hoseline, as well as for the interior and especially on the floors above.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 12-27-2011 at 06:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    so this is your apology for the misquote? Re-opening the door means I agree with the initial tactic of closing it to make the search of that room easier. After that is complete, if the door isnt reopened, you didnt vent, you just stopped the smoke from entering that room, and you are making it harder for the inside teams (the ones YOU said didnt exist, once again proving this wasnt just about two different ways of doing something, you were flat out telling people that the tactic was incorrect).
    We are just going to have to RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree on the basis that we (being my department(s) and yours) perform a tactic under the same name two different ways, for multiple reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Yeah, calling someone a safety sally because we are concerned about inside teams (you know, the way WE do it, PROPERLY staffed (if one more jerkoff says we are overstaffed I might actually lose my f*cking mind ) and saying that he is wrong for considering fire spread (LOL) sure isnt telling someone they are wrong. Nice touch with the "talk to someone who has done it, not just read about it".
    You conviniently left out his post before mine which basically told me I had no idea what I was talking about. I am not as worried about it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    We are just going to have to RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree on the basis that we (being my department(s) and yours) perform a tactic under the same name two different ways, for multiple reasons.
    I refuse to respectfully disagree with anyone who will misquote what I say to attempt to make a point, or to accuse me or those in agreement with me of being safety sallies for being concerned with the members operating inside.



    You conviniently left out his post before mine which basically told me I had no idea what I was talking about. I am not as worried about it though.
    Oh, so responding to his immaturity with some of your own was the best you could do?

    P.S. Your post showed you didnt know what you were talking about, since you MOCKED him for being concerned about fire spread when VESing. You can blame it on "two different ways of performing the same tactic", which only points to you possibly having reading comprehension problems, or you can admit your posts were out of line, and learn how to respectfully disagree and tune out jakesdad when he turns into the insufferable blowhard on occasion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    I refuse to respectfully disagree with anyone who will misquote what I say to attempt to make a point, or to accuse me or those in agreement with me of being safety sallies for being concerned with the members operating inside.





    Oh, so responding to his immaturity with some of your own was the best you could do?

    P.S. Your post showed you didnt know what you were talking about, since you MOCKED him for being concerned about fire spread when VESing. You can blame it on "two different ways of performing the same tactic", which only points to you possibly having reading comprehension problems, or you can admit your posts were out of line, and learn how to respectfully disagree and tune out jakesdad when he turns into the insufferable blowhard on occasion.
    So you can't agree that because of so many contributing factors, fire departments across the country can perform VES differently, using different steps and procedures, yet still accomplish the same goal? Or is your way the only way?

    If you can't respectfully disagree then so be it. Bit defending somone's arrogance just because "that's the way he is every now and then" only shows that you and he are that much more alike.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    So you can't agree that because of so many contributing factors, fire departments across the country can perform VES differently, using different steps and procedures, yet still accomplish the same goal? Or is your way the only way?

    If you can't respectfully disagree then so be it. Bit defending somone's arrogance just because "that's the way he is every now and then" only shows that you and he are that much more alike.
    so, chalk it up to reading comprehension? I never commented on anyone else's tactics, only on your comments ABOUT our tactics. I understand pretty well how understaffed depts work, and using VES in any way to help rescue otherwise unreachable victims is a big positive in my my book.

    And I didnt defend anyone, I told you to stop "but he hit me first" if you wish to be taken seriously in this conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREguy2011 View Post
    I'd like to point out that we broke the window from the ladder after looking inside.
    WE broke the window ? Yall really take that team work serious.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Too many variables to have a direct answer, but no, reopening the door is not an absolute, but I'd offer that its done most of the time, especially when the search was negative, and there are no issues with the hoseline advancement. Often, if the member entering the room has gotten there ahead of the line even entering the apartment (especially true at 5th and 6th floor fires), it might not even be necessary to shut the door to search the room, if the conditions allow. Thats why I said that VESing can be a combined "search for life and fire" type deal, when done properly. Venting out ahead of the hoseline will make worlds of difference to the interior team searching and for the members on the hoseline operating. Closing the only opening in the apt can have dramatic effects on the advancement of the hoseline, as well as for the interior and especially on the floors above.
    I had never thought about it that way. You have a good point.

    By the way "your over staffed" lol
    Bring enough hose.

  20. #260
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    NYCKFTBL : Please refer to my post on page 12 ( post # 227 ). It's not a loaded question.....i'm just trying to learn something here.

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