Popularity of VES

[nyckftbl]

Pretty sure I basically said this:



With this:



Must be something in the water down here, huh?

LOL....Not even worth it.

[nyckftbl]

Once again....no wonder we lost all the good posters and no one wants to talk tactics anymore. F*ck it.

[FyredUp]

Seriously nyckftbl,

What did you add here? Three posts whining about whining. YOU WIN!

And if you are going to say ****, just say it. We'll know what you mean when they censor it.

[nyckftbl]

Seriously nyckftbl,

What did you add here? Three posts whining about whining. YOU WIN!

And if you are going to say ****, just say it. We'll know what you mean when they censor it.

I edited my posts, because some clearly dont want to listen. Its not worth it anymore, Im tired of trying, only to be accused of "not understanding" LOL. Have fun. YOU win, another "know nothing" who will no longer post in this section. Enjoy.

[FyredUp]

I edited my posts, because some clearly dont want to listen. Its not worth it anymore, Im tired of trying, only to be accused of "not understanding" LOL. Have fun. YOU win, another "know nothing" who will no longer post in this section. Enjoy.

Look, just because people disagree, and even if they are blatantly wrong, what is gained by surrendering and running away?

I guarantee you that the way the FDNY does almost anything is different from the way my 93 member caeer FD does things. Dude, you guys run more guys on a first alarm than we have on duty. You don't like to hear that, but to a big chunk of the rest of the USA it is a fact of life. The other thing is you FDNY guys all the time tell people don't be us, don't do what we do just because we do it. So which is it? Do exactly what you do, or do what works for us?

VES is just what it says it is, Vent Enter, Search. The difficulty here has been a variation of tactics. How to take the window, how to place the ladder, door open/door closed, when you leave, how to coordinate VES with interior crews, if there are any.

I understand if you need to leave the topic...sometimes it gets to be too much. But don't play the martyr, either tough it out and continue to try and get your point across, or not. Either way the world won't stop turning.

[THEENGINEGOES]

I edited my posts, because some clearly dont want to listen. Its not worth it anymore, Im tired of trying, only to be accused of "not understanding" LOL. Have fun. YOU win, another "know nothing" who will no longer post in this section. Enjoy.

Hey NYCKFTBL...........thanks a bunch for taking the time to answer my question, i really appreciate it. ( sarcasm intended ) Apparently you have plenty of time to argue and bicker with others but not enough time to answer an honest question and pass on the knowledge that you have.

Take care.

[footrat]

I edited my posts, because some clearly dont want to listen. Its not worth it anymore, Im tired of trying, only to be accused of "not understanding" LOL. Have fun. YOU win, another "know nothing" who will no longer post in this section. Enjoy.

It's not that no one wants to listen. I mean, I don't want to listen to your whining, but some others probably do. What the issue IS, however, is that your posts seem to consist of, "This is how we at FDNY do it, and that's that." Your posts have the air of a "We Do It That Way Because It's Always Been Done That Way" attitude, and do not contain any real contribution to the WHY behind the tactics. They do not seem to contain any insight into fire behavior. That's why no one listens to you. You come off as a rookie who likes to talk because he's had a lot of classes and no real experience with which to temper that "education." You can regurgitate bullet points, but I've yet to see a true understanding of that which you spout forth.

[JohnVBFD]

It's not that no one wants to listen. I mean, I don't want to listen to your whining, but some others probably do. What the issue IS, however, is that your posts seem to consist of, "This is how we at FDNY do it, and that's that." Your posts have the air of a "We Do It That Way Because It's Always Been Done That Way" attitude, and do not contain any real contribution to the WHY behind the tactics. They do not seem to contain any insight into fire behavior. That's why no one listens to you. You come off as a rookie who likes to talk because he's had a lot of classes and no real experience with which to temper that "education." You can regurgitate bullet points, but I've yet to see a true understanding of that which you spout forth.

. . . . . . . .

[FyredUp]

. . . . . . . .

Sorry but I disagree. I have a lot of respect for the Brothers from the FDNY but it seems they are schizophrenic at times on what they say here. Some of them say don't do what we do just because we do it, and then other FDNY guys seem to say this is how we do it and that is the only way to do it.

Look if I could count on between 25 and 30 guys on the first alarm we might do things differently than we do. But hell on a fat day we have 30 guys on duty and on a lean day we may have as few as 25. A first alarm assignment gets us 15 on a fat day and 13 on a lean one. To not understand that and then to get ****y, whine about whiners, and then leave the topic makes no sense at all. There are multiple ways to accomplish the tactics and operations to complete a VES operation. From how you take out the window, to how you place the ladder, to the tools you take with, and how you control the door.

[nyckftbl]

Sorry but I disagree. I have a lot of respect for the Brothers from the FDNY but it seems they are schizophrenic at times on what they say here. Some of them say don't do what we do just because we do it, and then other FDNY guys seem to say this is how we do it and that is the only way to do it.

Look if I could count on between 25 and 30 guys on the first alarm we might do things differently than we do. But hell on a fat day we have 30 guys on duty and on a lean day we may have as few as 25. A first alarm assignment gets us 15 on a fat day and 13 on a lean one. To not understand that and then to get ****y, whine about whiners, and then leave the topic makes no sense at all. There are multiple ways to accomplish the tactics and operations to complete a VES operation. From how you take out the window, to how you place the ladder, to the tools you take with, and how you control the door.

Hey f*cko....Ive defended you here PLENTY of times in the past....you are out of line here. Post one...JUST ONE, post of mine where I gave the impression or flat out said "this is the way we do it, the end"...that would be ironic considering Im also a volly and know all too well the nature of sh*tty staffing. Man up, prove your point, or drop the act. You should be ashamed of yourself for this, especially after all the "brotherhood" talk over the years on this website. You know damn well why I left....stop lying. MY point was being misunderstood....you should know better than to think that sh*t, Ive MORE than proven myself here in the tactics section and throughout this website through the years...asshats...I mean footrats post was above and beyond misinterpretation, it was flat out lying about my position. BMA.

[nyckftbl]

It's not that no one wants to listen. I mean, I don't want to listen to your whining, but some others probably do. What the issue IS, however, is that your posts seem to consist of, "This is how we at FDNY do it, and that's that." Your posts have the air of a "We Do It That Way Because It's Always Been Done That Way" attitude, and do not contain any real contribution to the WHY behind the tactics. They do not seem to contain any insight into fire behavior. That's why no one listens to you. You come off as a rookie who likes to talk because he's had a lot of classes and no real experience with which to temper that "education." You can regurgitate bullet points, but I've yet to see a true understanding of that which you spout forth.

Hard to take someone seriously with such poor reading skills.

[FyredUp]

Hey f*cko....Ive defended you here PLENTY of times in the past....you are out of line here. Post one...JUST ONE, post of mine where I gave the impression or flat out said "this is the way we do it, the end"...that would be ironic considering Im also a volly and know all too well the nature of sh*tty staffing. Man up, prove your point, or drop the act. You should be ashamed of yourself for this, especially after all the "brotherhood" talk over the years on this website. You know damn well why I left....stop lying. MY point was being misunderstood....you should know better than to think that sh*t, Ive MORE than proven myself here in the tactics section and throughout this website through the years...asshats...I mean footrats post was above and beyond misinterpretation, it was flat out lying about my position. BMA.

And azzmunch, I have defended the Brothers of the FDNY here on numerous occasions. But there have been numerous occasions where those very same Brothers have said don't do what we do simply because we do it. My perception here, right or wrong, was that if we didn't agree with you we were doing it wrong. Case in point controlling the door. You made a point of making sure to re-open it, and I said I might just leave it closed to make sure I had enough time to get the victim and myself out. You then commented it was only enter search then...well who cares? Wasn't the point to get the victim out in the first place?

I should be ashamed of what? Staying in the topic? Defending my viewpoint? Not whining for 3 posts and running away? What should I be ashamed of? The fact that some FDNY guys say don't do what we do and others say if you don't do what we do you are doing it wrong? Was it the schizophrenic comment you didn't like? Toughen up, we say a whole lot worse about each other sitting aound the firehouse kitchen table.

You don't even want to head down accusing me of not believing in the Brotherhood of the fire service because you will end up looking stupid. You really need to get a grip, this is the internet and the greatest fault of the intenet is the inability to catch subtleties, and emotion, behind a comment.

I don't believe I ever questioned your knowledge in firefighting or tactics. But if you get this frustrated trying to explain something I strongly suggest you stay out of the instructor field because you need patience and the ability to get your point across. Really how did you help clarify anything by stomping you feet and leaving?

[Capt-nj]

I am alittle nervious responding to the Thread. Some folks make great points, some of you are way out there! VES is a great tactic if manpower allows. The qualifier here is if manpower allows. Some Depts have the manpower and some don't. City guys I find have a hard time understanding that some depts on a 1st alarm are only getting out 10 or less guys, where in the City like FDNY a 1st alarm is like 20 to 30 guys. There is just a disconnenct here which I think leads to the arguements on this post to a degree.
Wheather it is being done in your small Dept or bigger Dept, the tactics of performing the duty really does not change. Once we commit to doing VES there are tasks that must be performed to
complete this VES that cannot be skipped if it is to be done saftey and fast. Laddering, search techniques, and such should be pretty much the same wheather you work in the city of volunteer in a small dept. You should know how and where the Ladder should be placed, how to take the window(all of it, sash included) let the room breath for a second, sound and sweep the floor, enter low, find the rooms door take a quick feel outside the room, close the door do your normal search of the room, then get out and move on. I can't stress the importants of closing the door. Once that window is gone you have just made a new vent point for fire, so you got to move it to that door to protect yourself to get the search done. Anyways thats my small take on this post. I enjoyed reading most of whats up here. Be safe all.

[nyckftbl]

And azzmunch, I have defended the Brothers of the FDNY here on numerous occasions. But there have been numerous occasions where those very same Brothers have said don't do what we do simply because we do it. My perception here, right or wrong, was that if we didn't agree with you we were doing it wrong. Case in point controlling the door. You made a point of making sure to re-open it, and I said I might just leave it closed to make sure I had enough time to get the victim and myself out. You then commented it was only enter search then...well who cares? Wasn't the point to get the victim out in the first place?

I should be ashamed of what? Staying in the topic? Defending my viewpoint? Not whining for 3 posts and running away? What should I be ashamed of? The fact that some FDNY guys say don't do what we do and others say if you don't do what we do you are doing it wrong? Was it the schizophrenic comment you didn't like? Toughen up, we say a whole lot worse about each other sitting aound the firehouse kitchen table.

You don't even want to head down accusing me of not believing in the Brotherhood of the fire service because you will end up looking stupid. You really need to get a grip, this is the internet and the greatest fault of the intenet is the inability to catch subtleties, and emotion, behind a comment.

I don't believe I ever questioned your knowledge in firefighting or tactics. But if you get this frustrated trying to explain something I strongly suggest you stay out of the instructor field because you need patience and the ability to get your point across. Really how did you help clarify anything by stomping you feet and leaving?

you are absolutely right....leaving doesnt solve anything. I apologize for questioning your brotherhood, that was my anger/frustration speaking. However....considering some of the posts around here directed towards me...alittle of the "brotherhood" directed my way sure would have been nice. Thats all I meant.

[nyckftbl]

Hey NYCKFTBL...........thanks a bunch for taking the time to answer my question, i really appreciate it. ( sarcasm intended ) Apparently you have plenty of time to argue and bicker with others but not enough time to answer an honest question and pass on the knowledge that you have.

Take care.

Sorry BROTHER, didnt see this before. Can you repeat the question, or do you want to go down the same road I did and throw a hissy fit?

[FyredUp]

you are absolutely right....leaving doesnt solve anything. I apologize for questioning your brotherhood, that was my anger/frustration speaking. However....considering some of the posts around here directed towards me...alittle of the "brotherhood" directed my way sure would have been nice. Thats all I meant.

Dude,

If you are cool, then we are cool. Brothes will disagree, Brothers will say things in the heat of the moment they wish later they hadn't said, but it is in the heat of the moment and it passes. Respect stays, even with disagreement. And I still respect your knowledge and where you come from. Despite your hissy fit!!

Now answer a few serious questions for me:

1) In VES, hasn't the ventilation part really occurred when we pop the window to make entry?
2) Isn't the point of that venting to make the room more tenable for both us and any possible victims?
3) Isn't the dual purpose of controlling the door to a) check the hall for fire conditions and other possible victims, b) to close the door to keep additional smoke and fire out of the room duing the victim removal?
4) If condtions in the hallway are deteriorating rapidly and we note that as we close the door during our seach/victim removal, is it moe important to re-open the door, or to leave it closed to ensure the victim and our safe exit from the room? Believe me I understand the concept of re-opening the door to create a ventilation exit for advancing attack crews. But I wonder if that isn't a distant second to me and the victims getting our butts out safely.

[nyckftbl]

Dude,

If you are cool, then we are cool. Brothes will disagree, Brothers will say things in the heat of the moment they wish later they hadn't said, but it is in the heat of the moment and it passes. Respect stays, even with disagreement. And I still respect your knowledge and where you come from. Despite your hissy fit!!

Now answer a few serious questions for me:

1) In VES, hasn't the ventilation part really occurred when we pop the window to make entry? Sort of, lol. Depending on whether you are VESing for an absolute known victim, or where there is a strong possibility of victims, sort of comes into play. When you need to search the room, and make a bee line for that bedroom door, that vent space really isnt opened for more than a few seconds (enough to create havoc in the fire area)....but once that door is closed, you really have only vented that small room. Which is why (obviously, conditions, hoseline advancement, weather conditions, etc all play a huge role) when you have completed the search of that room, and are going to move on, re-opening that door accomplishes the task completely.
2) Isn't the point of that venting to make the room more tenable for both us and any possible victims? Of course, but a proper primary search shouldnt be taking you that long, so after your search is complete, why not make other areas of the building more tenable for fire attack?
3) Isn't the dual purpose of controlling the door to a) check the hall for fire conditions and other possible victims, b) to close the door to keep additional smoke and fire out of the room duing the victim removal? This is where I think some of the miscommunication came from....VES isnt necessarily only done when a fire victim is absolutely known to be in that room. Obviously, if we have found a victim, youre not going to say "hey, hold on a sec, lemme go re open that door so the hoseline can advance/interior search teams can make a push down the hall". If that door cant be re opened because we have found a victim, so be it. Which led me to why I was getting agitated....it wasnt the FDNY guys in here saying either "do it this way, its correct" or "dont do it this way just because we do it"...it was others, from far away places, telling US we were doing it wrong, because you wouldnt have interior members already inside while VESing is taking place, which for many places, including plenty of shortstaffed places I know, is flat out wrong.
4) If condtions in the hallway are deteriorating rapidly and we note that as we close the door during our seach/victim removal, is it moe important to re-open the door, or to leave it closed to ensure the victim and our safe exit from the room? Believe me I understand the concept of re-opening the door to create a ventilation exit for advancing attack crews. But I wonder if that isn't a distant second to me and the victims getting our butts out safely.

If you've found a victim, its absolutely a distant second....and depending on the type of structure, whether you VESed from a portable ladder or a fire escape, how long it took to find the victim, etc.....you may hand that victim off, and then head bad into the room to find that door, and either meet up with the interior teams, search other rooms, hell in larger places you might still be ahead of the hoseline, which, diving back in a 2nd time with a little bit of knowledge of the layout, is a huge advantage. Like I said, this is definitely where some of the miscommunication is from, clearly some here believe VESing is only done when a known victim is present (if thats the way people operate, thats what you stick with, no argument from me)...but some here (including us) use VESing at a very large majority of our fires, have for many years, and our books were written with the blood of over 1000 members, so when someone here mocks us for asking permission to vent "because no one will be inside yet"....numerous times....it gets to the point that I'd rather not waste my time.

[FyredUp]

If you've found a victim, its absolutely a distant second....and depending on the type of structure, whether you VESed from a portable ladder or a fire escape, how long it took to find the victim, etc.....you may hand that victim off, and then head bad into the room to find that door, and either meet up with the interior teams, search other rooms, hell in larger places you might still be ahead of the hoseline, which, diving back in a 2nd time with a little bit of knowledge of the layout, is a huge advantage. Like I said, this is definitely where some of the miscommunication is from, clearly some here believe VESing is only done when a known victim is present (if thats the way people operate, thats what you stick with, no argument from me)...but some here (including us) use VESing at a very large majority of our fires, have for many years, and our books were written with the blood of over 1000 members, so when someone here mocks us for asking permission to vent "because no one will be inside yet"....numerous times....it gets to the point that I'd rather not waste my time.

See how smoothly that went? No blood shed, no tears, no breath holding!!

I think you hit on a critical point to almost ALL of the heated battles that occur here. While basic tactics may be close to the same everywhere, they are NOT exactly the same. The reasons can be manpower, both in numbers and skill/proficiency level, equipment differences, you have tower ladders and aerials, neither of my POC FDs do, experience level, you most likely see more fires in a month than both of my POC FDs together in a year, probably my career FD too for that matter. So everyone looks ar the same thing but sees it slightly differently, the issue arises when we can't see that the differences in capabilities DO MATTER and determine what and how we do things on the fireground. Good FDs will still go interior, will still search for victims, will still be aggressive when it is appropriate, but none of it may be done the same as anyone else does it, including the FDNY.

Take care my Brother, I do understand the frustration you feel, heck I have caused that frustation many times not only to you but others. You have to remember this is the internet, and that guy that says he is an uber fireman for generic big city, may be a 14 year old junior for the Dirt Road volunteer fire department running on a 1958 Ford front mount pumper!

[nyckftbl]

Take care my Brother, I do understand the frustration you feel, heck I have caused that frustation many times not only to you but others. You have to remember this is the internet, and that guy that says he is an uber fireman for generic big city, may be a 14 year old junior for the Dirt Road volunteer fire department running on a 1958 Ford front mount pumper!

Im 15, not 14. Cmon dude.

[Lewiston2FF]

Im 15, not 14. Cmon dude.

You told me you were 18!