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Thread: Popularity of VES

  1. #61
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Yes, but that is exactly my point. Like I said earlier, VES is a highly regional tactic. Most likely there is a handful of guys that have even heard of it on my department of about 1500 guys. Take one or two that think they know all about it from the internet, they put in in practice when know one else knows what in the hell it is, and scenario similar to this could result.
    One would hope that if VES is NOT a skill taught to your firefighters it would NOT be a tactic used on the fireground.

    My career FD teaches VES, and it is an allowable tactic decided upon by the company officer. The one thing that I think makes this a more viable option for us is that we have extensive training on "save your own/save yourself" bailout techniques. This makes it a rapid option for getting the heck out of the VES entered room.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Yes, but that is exactly my point. Like I said earlier, VES is a highly regional tactic. Most likely there is a handful of guys that have even heard of it on my department of about 1500 guys. Take one or two that think they know all about it from the internet, they put in in practice when know one else knows what in the hell it is, and scenario similar to this could result.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    One would hope that if VES is NOT a skill taught to your firefighters it would NOT be a tactic used on the fireground.

    My career FD teaches VES, and it is an allowable tactic decided upon by the company officer. The one thing that I think makes this a more viable option for us is that we have extensive training on "save your own/save yourself" bailout techniques. This makes it a rapid option for getting the heck out of the VES entered room.
    It should also be noted that without a doubt this technique has been used by firefighters all over for years before it had a fancy name. Just because someone hasn't heard of or been trained to VES doesn't mean they haven't performed it before.
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    I think its important to note that VES is not a tactic that stands alone. It is merely just one part of a larger operation.

    Simply knowing when or how to VES does not necessarily mean you should be doing it if its not an operation your department supports.

    By support, I mean understand and expect that this is a tactic that will be used. This requires officers who anticipate that firefighters will be often times operating ABOVE the handline and those members need to be protected. This also requires training on situations where it is appropriate and, more importantly, where it is NOT.

    If the person entering the structure after venting a window is the only one who knows he is doing it, they are potentially putting themselves in great danger.

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    in my opinion (from a rookie's standpoint), having a one man VES or even a two man VES puts us at even more risk than having victims inside the house because the VES team will be on air and only have a limited amount of time to be extracted. Victims are victims, firefighters are brothers/sisters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    in my opinion (from a rookie's standpoint), having a one man VES or even a two man VES puts us at even more risk than having victims inside the house because the VES team will be on air and only have a limited amount of time to be extracted. Victims are victims, firefighters are brothers/sisters.
    Huh? Doesnt this logic apply to anytime we are in a smoke filled, burning structure? Its because there are victims in the house (or the probability that there are) that we take those risks.

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    I'll clarify.
    usually VES is conducted on a second floor. If debris (like the roof) falls on a firefighter and a mayday is called, we have at most twenty minutes before their air runs out or they burn to death. By the time our VES team is downed, and they were responsible for finding any vics in that room, the VES team would be more viable than the victims. So the point is, with a FAST team established this type of situation forces the IC to choose between focusing on the initial victims or the VES team. Obstructions from the debris in the room would most likely cause the FAST team to be delayed in rescue efforts. But hey, I'm a rookie so what do I know?

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    VES is conducted on the second floor of 2 story private dwellings because that's where bedrooms usually are. You search where you have the best chance of finding victims. If it was a 1 story ranch, VES would be done in the part of the house most likely to have bedrooms.

    The FAST/RIC/RIT/RAT etc team is only going to go after distressed firefighters. That's what there function is. They are there for our benefit.

    When you think about it, your concerns would apply to anytime that we have firefighters operating in a structure with civilian victims. But the answer will be the same, if one or more firefighter gets in a jam, the RIT team and probably additional manpower will be used to get them out.
    Last edited by nameless; 12-17-2011 at 11:16 AM.

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    but wouldn't the focus of our FAST be the downed firefighters and not the victims or do we forget about the firefighters since they are viable and go after the vics?

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    like I said above:

    "The FAST/RIC/RIT/RAT etc team is only going to go after distressed firefighters. That's what there function is. They are there for our benefit"

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    ok thank you.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    in my opinion (from a rookie's standpoint), having a one man VES or even a two man VES puts us at even more risk than having victims inside the house because the VES team will be on air and only have a limited amount of time to be extracted. Victims are victims, firefighters are brothers/sisters.
    I believe you have some misconceptions about VES. It is a quick in and out. Pop the window if necessary, make entry, control the door to the hallway, take a quick peek into the hallway to check on fire extension, and to see if there are any victims, shut the door, then a quick search of the room, remove any victims found, and then out yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    I'll clarify.
    usually VES is conducted on a second floor. If debris (like the roof) falls on a firefighter and a mayday is called, we have at most twenty minutes before their air runs out or they burn to death. By the time our VES team is downed, and they were responsible for finding any vics in that room, the VES team would be more viable than the victims. So the point is, with a FAST team established this type of situation forces the IC to choose between focusing on the initial victims or the VES team. Obstructions from the debris in the room would most likely cause the FAST team to be delayed in rescue efforts. But hey, I'm a rookie so what do I know?
    Good question.

    RIT teams are there for us. To think that the possibility of leaving trapped firefighters trapped just because "they have 20 minutes of air" (which is an extremely broad and often off base assumption) and going to look for victims we don't even know are there or not even crossed your mind is a little disturbing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Good question.

    RIT teams are there for us. To think that the possibility of leaving trapped firefighters trapped just because "they have 20 minutes of air" (which is an extremely broad and often off base assumption) and going to look for victims we don't even know are there or not even crossed your mind is a little disturbing.
    thanks, but Fyredup cleared it up for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I believe you have some misconceptions about VES. It is a quick in and out. Pop the window if necessary, make entry, control the door to the hallway, take a quick peek into the hallway to check on fire extension, and to see if there are any victims, shut the door, then a quick search of the room, remove any victims found, and then out yourself.
    appreciate it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I believe you have some misconceptions about VES. It is a quick in and out. Pop the window if necessary, make entry, control the door to the hallway, take a quick peek into the hallway to check on fire extension, and to see if there are any victims, shut the door, then a quick search of the room, remove any victims found, and then out yourself.
    In the same vein, when it comes to RIT/FAST the VES team may be easier to find in the case of a mayday then crews performing other tasks. VES typically is going to enter a room from the exterior and limit themselves to that room. This could make it easier for RIT to find them should something happen. Find their means of entry and they'll probably still be in that room (or very nearby). Compare that with a typical Primary Search team who could be quite removed from their entry point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I believe you have some misconceptions about VES. It is a quick in and out. Pop the window if necessary, make entry, control the door to the hallway, take a quick peek into the hallway to check on fire extension, and to see if there are any victims, shut the door, then a quick search of the room, remove any victims found, and then out yourself.

    I would say that taking the window in its ENTIRETY is the rule when performing VES.

    You want that opening as big as possible because your way out of it may be under far less forgiving conditions than they were on the way in.

    Turn the window into a door as best you can. On most windows, this can be accomplished with nothing more than a halligan.

    Leaving too much of the window intact will make your quick egress very difficult should interior conditions change and you must leave in haste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    In the same vein, when it comes to RIT/FAST the VES team may be easier to find in the case of a mayday then crews performing other tasks. VES typically is going to enter a room from the exterior and limit themselves to that room. This could make it easier for RIT to find them should something happen. Find their means of entry and they'll probably still be in that room (or very nearby). Compare that with a typical Primary Search team who could be quite removed from their entry point.
    Exactly, entry through a window into a room. Search is USUALLY restricted to that room. So locating the VES crew if they run into trouble should be a piece of cake.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I would say that taking the window in its ENTIRETY is the rule when performing VES.

    You want that opening as big as possible because your way out of it may be under far less forgiving conditions than they were on the way in.

    Turn the window into a door as best you can. On most windows, this can be accomplished with nothing more than a halligan.

    Leaving too much of the window intact will make your quick egress very difficult should interior conditions change and you must leave in haste.
    Um, I guess I could have phrased that better. I meant if no one had previously cleared the window. Of course you want to remove the entire window glass, the the sash, and any window treatments insde the room.

    I assumed people would get what I meant...silly me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Um, I guess I could have phrased that better. I meant if no one had previously cleared the window. Of course you want to remove the entire window glass, the the sash, and any window treatments insde the room.

    I assumed people would get what I meant...silly me!

    Wasn't trying to split hairs. It is just a widely misunderstood tactic that, when done incorrectly, can result in disaster. So I just wanted to clarify your point in case it was misunderstood.

    Also, if the window was ALREADY taken prior to you getting to it, then it really is no longer VES that you are performing.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Wasn't trying to split hairs. It is just a widely misunderstood tactic that, when done incorrectly, can result in disaster. So I just wanted to clarify your point in case it was misunderstood.

    Also, if the window was ALREADY taken prior to you getting to it, then it really is no longer VES that you are performing.
    True. Although I would have no trouble using the ladder to initially pop the window. Then clearing it out as I climbed the ladder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    True. Although I would have no trouble using the ladder to initially pop the window. Then clearing it out as I climbed the ladder.
    Question:

    When I was taught VES on my previous department, the instructor stated that the window should not be popped out with the ladder, but instead the ladder should be positioned just below the sill as for a rescue. The reason being that the victim could be under the window, and may be injured by the broken glass.

    We were taught to position the ladder, climb it, check the floor near the window for the victim, and then if clear, take out the window.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-19-2011 at 01:12 PM.
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