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  1. #126
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    Another question: if you ascend the ladder before taking the window, what do you anticipate seeing that might change your mind about VES?

    I generally expect that you'll find a heavy smoke condition precluding you from seeing anything else? Once the glass is gone, the smoke lifts for some visibility or it doesn't and it gets worse. Neither can be as properly gauged through the glass can it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    It's painfully obvious you aren't even paying attention. You lost me at a "smoldering fire" being incipient. I've lost all hope in listening to you. I'd be willing to debate with you had you actually given any thought to what everyone else is saying. Have a good day and best of luck to you.

    I guess asking you to actually read what I wrote would be too much to ask.

    Seems you missed the part where I said NOT an incipient fire, but a smoldering fire.

    The nature of your posts seem so convoluted because you are talking about a different tactic every time you post, combining tactics and techniques in an effort to make a point but losing sight of what we are actually talking about.

    Fires in dwellings generally start slowly and gradually develop. The contents of the room continue to burn until they either run out of fuel or run out of oxygen.

    When you take a window, you introduce fresh air and oxygen to that enviorment. This causes the fire to rapidly develop and spread. This causes fires to move out of the original room and into the hallway and into adjacent rooms as it is drawn towards whatever opening you have made. This is not a backdraft. Nor is this fiction. And if you haven't seen this in real life, than I have to call into question the number of fires you have actually responded to.

    The simple point is that if you don't consider what the possible effects could be of your venting, then you are untrained at best and ignorant at worst.

    Either way, your lack of understanding of these simple concepts makes you a bit of a liability when it comes to VES and I for one would not want to be operating on the interior of a building you were operating outside of.

    If you want to take the window with the tip of the ladder, so be it.

    But why you would do so when it requires very little, if any, extra work to climb the ladder, assess the conditions by actually looking through the window, communicate your intentions to those operating inside then proceed to VES is beyond me.

    You have yet to make a case for doing so.

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    Okay maybe I am missing something here, so please bear with me.

    If taking the window with the ladder draws the fire from the hall into the room, why won't taking the window at the top of the ladder with an axe or a Halligan do the very same thing?

    Frankly, I agree with the others that have said that they would rather take the window with the ladder and have the fire blow then than climb the ladder pop the window and have it blow out over me on the ladder.

    As for a fire in the smoldering stage, with potential for a backdraft, seriously do you want to be anywhere near that window when you pop it? I don't. Either way, NO ONE will be alive in that room anyways.

    Personally, I will do VES the way MY FD says to do it. I suggest those that disagree with the way we do it, do it the way their FD says to do it. It really is that simple.
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    I personally, and would be glad to hear the contrary, have little concern for how it looks through the window. My main concern is what the smoke is telling me and what conditions are at the sill. I dont dive head first in, I straddle the sill while reading (to the best of my abilities) what the fire/smoke is telling me. If at any time something doesn't seem right, I bail. Not diving in allows me a chance to descend the way I ascended and not bail head first. Getting to
    The ground lets me get a fairl decent idea of a room's layout and allows me to get to that door quickly. I'm always reading what the fire is telling me and it doesn't say much behind a window. I will say that larger McMansion houses pose a particular threat when dealing with dormers that lead to a first floor drop or windows that aren't to bedrooms which is where we are targeting. I've been lucky enough to hit them on the first try and hope my streak continues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Another question: if you ascend the ladder before taking the window, what do you anticipate seeing that might change your mind about VES?

    I generally expect that you'll find a heavy smoke condition precluding you from seeing anything else? Once the glass is gone, the smoke lifts for some visibility or it doesn't and it gets worse. Neither can be as properly gauged through the glass can it?
    I don't expect to see anything, but what I am looking for is fire rolling across the ceiling, fire in the hallway, an open door, fire in the rom directly across the hall from the room I am considering venting and entering or the light from a personal flashlight indicating a member is already in that room or area.

    These are all important factors in your operation that simply cannot be obtained from the ground.

    Let me ask you this...

    If you got to the window, looked into it and could clearly see fire rolling across the ceiling in the hallway and the reflection of another members gear indicating he was crawling under it to try to make a back bedroom...would you still take that window?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay maybe I am missing something here, so please bear with me.

    If taking the window with the ladder draws the fire from the hall into the room, why won't taking the window at the top of the ladder with an axe or a Halligan do the very same thing?

    .
    It WILL do the same thing.

    Which is why it might not be in anyone's best interest to actually take THAT window.

    That is the whole point of this.

    And you can learn alot about the interior conditions from actually looking into that window and assessing it and anticipating what will happen if and when you do take it.

    By taking it from the ground and waiting to see what happens, you are making a tactical error because you have made your decision based on incomplete information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I guess asking you to actually read what I wrote would be too much to ask.

    Seems you missed the part where I said NOT an incipient fire, but a smoldering fire.

    The nature of your posts seem so convoluted because you are talking about a different tactic every time you post, combining tactics and techniques in an effort to make a point but losing sight of what we are actually talking about.

    Fires in dwellings generally start slowly and gradually develop. The contents of the room continue to burn until they either run out of fuel or run out of oxygen.

    When you take a window, you introduce fresh air and oxygen to that enviorment. This causes the fire to rapidly develop and spread. This causes fires to move out of the original room and into the hallway and into adjacent rooms as it is drawn towards whatever opening you have made. This is not a backdraft. Nor is this fiction. And if you haven't seen this in real life, than I have to call into question the number of fires you have actually responded to.

    The simple point is that if you don't consider what the possible effects could be of your venting, then you are untrained at best and ignorant at worst.

    Either way, your lack of understanding of these simple concepts makes you a bit of a liability when it comes to VES and I for one would not want to be operating on the interior of a building you were operating outside of.

    If you want to take the window with the tip of the ladder, so be it.

    But why you would do so when it requires very little, if any, extra work to climb the ladder, assess the conditions by actually looking through the window, communicate your intentions to those operating inside then proceed to VES is beyond me.

    You have yet to make a case for doing so.

    Oh no, everyone including myself are talking about real world VES. But I understand now. It's one of those "everyone else is crazy" arguments. The majority seems to both understand and agree with what I'm saying. Maybe we're just the dumb ones. Vent from the ladder and have fun doing it. I hope it never bites you in the ***. Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I don't expect to see anything, but what I am looking for is fire rolling across the ceiling, fire in the hallway, an open door, fire in the rom directly across the hall from the room I am considering venting and entering or the light from a personal flashlight indicating a member is already in that room or area.

    These are all important factors in your operation that simply cannot be obtained from the ground.

    Let me ask you this...

    If you got to the window, looked into it and could clearly see fire rolling across the ceiling in the hallway and the reflection of another members gear indicating he was crawling under it to try to make a back bedroom...would you still take that window?

    A real world thought would be: "how am I still able to see through this window if conditions are so bad a mere 10 feet from it?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I personally, and would be glad to hear the contrary, have little concern for how it looks through the window. My main concern is what the smoke is telling me and what conditions are at the sill. I dont dive head first in, I straddle the sill while reading (to the best of my abilities) what the fire/smoke is telling me. If at any time something doesn't seem right, I bail. Not diving in allows me a chance to descend the way I ascended and not bail head first. Getting to
    The ground lets me get a fairl decent idea of a room's layout and allows me to get to that door quickly. I'm always reading what the fire is telling me and it doesn't say much behind a window. I will say that larger McMansion houses pose a particular threat when dealing with dormers that lead to a first floor drop or windows that aren't to bedrooms which is where we are targeting. I've been lucky enough to hit them on the first try and hope my streak continues.
    Since you are acknowledging that you personally vent the window from the ground with the tip of the ladder, then how would you even be able to judge what you can or cannot see at that window prior to taking it?

    I will pose the same question to you that I posed to RFDACMO2...

    If you were at the window and could see an open door into the hallway with fire rolling across the ceiling and the light from another member below it, would you still take that window?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    A real world thought would be: "how am I still able to see through this window if conditions are so bad a mere 10 feet from it?"
    And the very real world response would be...go to more fires.

    Pay more attention. You would be surprised at what you are missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post

    If you got to the window, looked into it and could clearly see fire rolling across the ceiling in the hallway and the reflection of another members gear indicating he was crawling under it to try to make a back bedroom...would you still take that window?
    While I see what your saying I guess I'd have to looking at the conditions you're "seeing" to answer. If it's clear a member is searching or has searched the space, great, no go. As for the hallway, the location of the fire, the location of the "back bedrooms, the location of the stair, etc ad nauseum, I guess I couldn't say other than I'm sure if you answer my every question I'd likely find no need to take VES? I'm not convinced the visibility will likely be good enough often enough for me to take the time to set the ladder, and go up and take the glass from what I'd considered a disadvantaged position. I'm certainly not going to set the ladder to the side ascend, vent, descend and reset the ladder. So until I'm far more compelled, we'll stick to what we've been taught and done. I do agree that there has to be conscious thought as to what is happening as these tactics are employed, like any tactic we must understand the indications, contraindication, the positives and the negatives and act accordingly to the situation presented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Since you are acknowledging that you personally vent the window from the ground with the tip of the ladder, then how would you even be able to judge what you can or cannot see at that window prior to taking it?

    I will pose the same question to you that I posed to RFDACMO2...

    If you were at the window and could see an open door into the hallway with fire rolling across the ceiling and the light from another member below it, would you still take that window?
    Wouldn't happen. If there's an attack team on the second floor fire room, I wouldnt have even been ordered to perform VES. No attack team? Get in, close door, quick search, get out.

    Now, if we're going to be asinine and pedantic to try and prove a point, what are your guys doing above 1 story without ladders at the windows?

    I can understand your frustration but please remember, we're discussing real world fires here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Oh no, everyone including myself are talking about real world VES. But I understand now. It's one of those "everyone else is crazy" arguments. The majority seems to both understand and agree with what I'm saying. Maybe we're just the dumb ones. Vent from the ladder and have fun doing it. I hope it never bites you in the ***. Good luck.
    This is not a popularity contest.

    I certainly hope that for your safety and the safety of everyone around you that the Firehouse Forums democracy is not what you base your fireground decisions on.

    These boards are rife with many who haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about and the same people you claim to get validity from will be debating you on another issue tomorrow.

    I, for one, would feel foolish for criticizing the validity of a technique and then admitting that I have never even bothered to perform it to actually make an educated decision on whether it is helpful or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtrider245 View Post
    i highly doubt i would be operating as an interior team before handling a potential rescue. There isn't a whole lot of ves that gets done well into the incident. it is usualy a tactic used by the first or second in company, meaning there aren't any interior crews to worry about.

    if you have crews inside operating close enough to the area where the victim could be, just perform a regular search.

    what?? ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    You sound like you would make a great safety officer. The beauty of the matter is that usually the first in company can get the VES performed before the S.O. arrives on scene.

    Like Taj said, talk to some guys who have actually done this instead of reading from a book.

    Even though Bull spelled it out to a T, I will do it again anyway, in steps:

    We will assume this is a second story VES.

    1. Arrive on scene.
    2. Occupant states victim is inside, at a specific location.
    3. Throw ladder to desired window, taking the glass in the process.
    4. Position tools on the highest ladder rung while watching conditons inside room. If it flashes or shows signs of immediate flashover, abandon VES and move on to another task. If conditions allow, move to step 5.
    5. Ascend ladder, take the rest of the window and sash.
    6. Look into the room and gather info on what you see. Look at the base of the window for someone who may be lying there.
    7. Sound the floor.
    8. Enter the room, leaving one tool propped out the window. This gives a reference point that can be seen from across the room as to where the exit is. It also lets other firefighters know you are searching the room. Now would be a good time to scan with a TIC if you have one. If a second firefighter is availabe, he should be waiting at the window on the tip of the ladder.
    9. Begin your search. Make your way around the room, eventually coming to the door. When you get there, search just outside it, and then close it. Make your way around the entire room.
    10. Once the search is complete, either exit with your victim or exit alone.

    Notice the steps that weren't mentioned:
    - Wait for 2 in 2 out manpower to be available.
    - Wait for a charged hose line.
    - Consider how taking thw window will affect fire spread.

    If taking the window causes the entire house to eventually burn, but we made a rescue in the process, OH WELL. If you honestly have to debate whether life safety or ventiliation effects are more important, I suggest you turn in your gear.
    You forgot a very important step at the end.

    PS. What you wrote implies we only VES when a known victim is present...its a search, and if you arent taking fire spread into account, you are doing it wrong.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 12-21-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    And the very real world response would be...go to more fires.

    Pay more attention. You would be surprised at what you are missing.
    Ah. The "I'm more experienced than you" jab. I really wish they'd bother me but I let my actions do the talking, not my rank. As far as things I'm missing, like bitter men upset because they cant prove that twice the work is better... I'll live. While your banter has kept me entertained, I'll say for the final time, do what you want and best of luck to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    This is not a popularity contest.

    I certainly hope that for your safety and the safety of everyone around you that the Firehouse Forums democracy is not what you base your fireground decisions on.

    These boards are rife with many who haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about and the same people you claim to get validity from will be debating you on another issue tomorrow.

    I, for one, would feel foolish for criticizing the validity of a technique and then admitting that I have never even bothered to perform it to actually make an educated decision on whether it is helpful or not.

    No, you're correct. I'm not basing my correctness on approval but I do feel it isn't me when everyone else seems to get it. I've also never vented a roof with a Bowie knife either but logical tells me there are better ways. I'll rightfully admit that my first lessons in VES were *** backwards and I'm continuously learning. I won't say I know it all or that my department is perfect but until a feasible scenario is presented, I'll disagree with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Wouldn't happen. If there's an attack team on the second floor fire room, I wouldnt have even been ordered to perform VES. No attack team? Get in, close door, quick search, get out.

    Now, if we're going to be asinine and pedantic to try and prove a point, what are your guys doing above 1 story without ladders at the windows?

    I can understand your frustration but please remember, we're discussing real world fires here.
    I work for a department that performs VES at every fire. We have staffed ladder companies and have members assigned to do this at every structural fire.

    It is a way to perform a search of areas ahead of the line, or areas that are cut off by fire from the inside members. It is considered a routine operation and it is highly coordinated with members operating inside.

    I would not be discussing the tactic if I wasn't familiar with it nor would I be making real world suggestions if I had never done it.

    I would also not be suggesting a better way to do it if I had not seen for myself the benefits of such.

    But rather than actually read and comprehend what is being said, you would rather personally attack me for bringing to light something you don't understand.

    Sounds like you work or volunteer in a place where you have limited staffing. If that is the case, then YOUR version of VES is probably different than someone who works in a department with dedicated ladder companies and adequate staffing.

    I would not climb a fire escape and vent the window of an apartment if the conditions dictated that it would put members operating inside in danger, nor would I take the window at a private dwelling without first doing a size-up of the window in question. If you would, I would caution against it.

    Most rescue in fires are made before the fire is in its free-burning state. You would be surprised at how long you can crawl around an apartment and search prior to it being vented. Once it is vented, all bets are off and your time within is extremely limited until water is actually on the fire.

    Why you would be so highly offended at the suggestion of a way to improve on something is hard to understand.

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    One of my department's has very low manpower levels which dictate an entirely different procedure and mind set as my very busy city department with excellent manpower.


    No. I'm actually fairly calm and I appreciate your concern over my well-being. If you thought this was angry, please see any thread where lafire speaks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While I see what your saying I guess I'd have to looking at the conditions you're "seeing" to answer. If it's clear a member is searching or has searched the space, great, no go. As for the hallway, the location of the fire, the location of the "back bedrooms, the location of the stair, etc ad nauseum, I guess I couldn't say other than I'm sure if you answer my every question I'd likely find no need to take VES? I'm not convinced the visibility will likely be good enough often enough for me to take the time to set the ladder, and go up and take the glass from what I'd considered a disadvantaged position. I'm certainly not going to set the ladder to the side ascend, vent, descend and reset the ladder. So until I'm far more compelled, we'll stick to what we've been taught and done. I do agree that there has to be conscious thought as to what is happening as these tactics are employed, like any tactic we must understand the indications, contraindication, the positives and the negatives and act accordingly to the situation presented.
    You don't have to reset anything. Place the ladder tip just below the sill, climb the ladder carrying with you a 4 or 6 foot pike pole and a halligan. Ascertain the conditions " if possible" pop a few sections at the top of the window with the hook "This is so you can gauge smoke velocity color ect." Then if all clear take the rest of the window.

    If you like to use the ladder to break the window then good for you. We just do it different to the same end.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I covered that. I was just waiting for some one to say it. If we are discussing backdraft, do you want to be at the window and on a ladder should it occur?
    If you use your hook to take the window you can do so from a few feet below the sill, so unless the backdraft blows the side of the house off you are in a safe spot.

    I fully understand everyones reasoning for venting with the ladder.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I guess asking you to actually read what I wrote would be too much to ask.

    Seems you missed the part where I said NOT an incipient fire, but a smoldering fire.

    The nature of your posts seem so convoluted because you are talking about a different tactic every time you post, combining tactics and techniques in an effort to make a point but losing sight of what we are actually talking about.

    Fires in dwellings generally start slowly and gradually develop. The contents of the room continue to burn until they either run out of fuel or run out of oxygen.

    When you take a window, you introduce fresh air and oxygen to that enviorment. This causes the fire to rapidly develop and spread. This causes fires to move out of the original room and into the hallway and into adjacent rooms as it is drawn towards whatever opening you have made. This is not a backdraft. Nor is this fiction. And if you haven't seen this in real life, than I have to call into question the number of fires you have actually responded to.

    The simple point is that if you don't consider what the possible effects could be of your venting, then you are untrained at best and ignorant at worst.

    Either way, your lack of understanding of these simple concepts makes you a bit of a liability when it comes to VES and I for one would not want to be operating on the interior of a building you were operating outside of.

    If you want to take the window with the tip of the ladder, so be it.

    But why you would do so when it requires very little, if any, extra work to climb the ladder, assess the conditions by actually looking through the window, communicate your intentions to those operating inside then proceed to VES is beyond me.

    You have yet to make a case for doing so.
    Jake,

    You have to chill Dude. You can't chastise someone for being insulting and turn around and insult them right back.

    YOU don't have to like the way anyone else does VES or takes the window. Any more than I have to like the way you do it and the snarky attitude you have displayed here towards anyone that doesn't agree with your way.

    Either way, Merry Christmas!
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    what?? ?
    I am talking about the departments I run with. Not those of you who have 5-6 men on the trucks.
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I am talking about the departments I run with. Not those of you who have 5-6 men on the trucks.
    Then stick with "we", not "you".
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Jake,

    You have to chill Dude. You can't chastise someone for being insulting and turn around and insult them right back.

    YOU don't have to like the way anyone else does VES or takes the window. Any more than I have to like the way you do it and the snarky attitude you have displayed here towards anyone that doesn't agree with your way.

    Either way, Merry Christmas!
    Don't tell me what kind of Christmas to have!!

    Just kidding. Merry Christmas to you. Be safe

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