Thread: RIT T-t-T

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    Default RIT T-t-T

    So I have a bit of a issue on my hands and would like to get some feedback from you guys here.

    So there is a training company (http://www.fdtraining.com/index.html) who is offering a "RIT Train-the-Trainer" in October. I would love to take this class and sent an email asking the Chief if there was anyway that I would be able to take said class. Now I did also ask if there was a way either the station of the county would reimburse me, but I would be willing to save every pay check and pay my own way if need be. Now the response I got from the Chief was "If you want to take a RIT TTT you should take it through the county."

    Now I don't really want to go against his recommendation but I haven't seen a RIT T-t-T class held in the county EVER, and its been a LONG time since I have seen one in the state. I really want to take this class so I can better my RIT knowledge and be able to teach it and pass on that knowledge.

    So my big question for y'all is what would you do if you were in this position??

    Worst case I save up my money and take the class at a later time, I am pretty sure the company I would be going through hosts this class on a somewhat regular basis so ya......

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    Do what the Chief says.
    Jason Knecht
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    VDFP MayDay train-the-trainer at the 2011 Instructor Symposium on August 20 & 21 down in Fredericksburg at Mary Washington. It's a 2-day, 16-hour class. It was offered last year as well when the Symposium was held in Goochland.

    Registration information here: 2011 Instructor Symposium.

    Might be something for you to look into...
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    First I disagree with just following the chief's recommendation. RIT really is an essential part of the fireground and an intrinsic aspect of FF survival and should not be taken lightly (albeit it is in many places). The knowledge from RIT can really be the difference between life and death and THAT is a reality.

    Now I know it is so easy to pussyfoot around the monatary constraints, but what is the cost of a LODD? Is a couple thousand $$ really the determining factor here? Are we thus so concerned about money we can't see the benefit at hand? I disagree with the chief. In fact if there hasn't been suchtraining in the county before and if RIT hasn't been taught before.....at what aspect will depts wait before taking a dump or getting off the pot?

    Sounds to me as though the dept and chief should take the reigns and send and thus look for county reimbursement under the aspect of providing training to the county. If the county refuses, then look to other depts to offer the training at a low cost to recoup some costs. Of which if this was the case I would also make this known to the local press and media of how an individual dept had to take the reigns here. Most likely the costs can be reabsorbed and perhaps further. In the end RIT definately is an important aspect and not something that should be easily feigned off.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Ok. let me expand on my answer to listen to the Chief.

    Maybe the Chief has knowledge you don't of a class coming up or standardized training for everyone in your county. Maybe he wants you to learn "your own local way" instead of "their way" of doing it. Procedures could be drastically different.

    Yes, I agree that RIT is very important and everyone needs RIT training. However, everyone should be trained the same so you know what your partners are doing and what you can expect from each other.

    If the Chief blew you off then I would say take the class and pay for it yourself. Ask the Chief if he knows of some other training coming down the pipe, maybe he knows of something.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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    I don't agree here Dickey. If a chief knew of any upcoming standardized training on RIT, they wouldn't make a recommendation to ask the county for reimbursement. The OP's avatar says they are from VA, the class in question is being held in Indianapolis and does travel.

    Doing it "their way" and "your way" means absolutely very little. The concepts are the same when it comes to getting out a downed FF as well as survival. Who gives a crap less about how podunk does it vs big city? In all Dickey, I know we are from the same state and chances are you heard and sat in a presentation from our LODD. Do you really think things are done so differently between the eastern and western part of the state? If so, i would truly beg to differ. While the RIT set up and ops may differ, the rescue techniques, situations, lessons learned, training recommendations and so forth remain the same.

    It doesn't matter if Podunk sets up RIT one way while Big City another, the lessons learned for such a RIT training is universal. How to get a FF who fell through the floor, whether it is a basement window, hose through the floor, rope through the floor, Denver Drill, Phoenix, etc, etc remains the same. There really is no differing standards of "how WE do it, vs how they do it"....get the FF out is what matters....how....well that is what training is for. Hiding behind how "WE" do it vs how "THEY" do it is a lackluster bogus excuse.
    Last edited by jccrabby3084; 08-04-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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    Methinks said chief should be a little more specific. When is the county offering the class? Will the county pay for [me] to go elsewhere? Are there other options for attending the class?

    Otherwise it is just a brush-off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Do what the Chief says.
    To expand on the thought a bit more in by not doing what the Chief says his future in the fire service could be compromised as in promotions and such. Yes, he could go on and save his money and take the class on his own but now is seen as somone who could not follow direction. - I know, hit me with your best shot but keep in mind his file says 5yrs in the fire service but only has 65 posts here, so I will take experience here with a grain of salt. Also, we are only hearing one side of the issue.
    Last edited by Capt387; 08-04-2011 at 06:18 PM.
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    I would follow and abide what the Chief has told you.

    My question to the brother in Manassas: Is this TnT class being done through, recognized and sanctioned by the Virginia Department of Fire Programs (DFP)?

    Are you an Instructor through the DFP? Taking this course will give you the basics and maybe good informaation, but you might not be albe to instruct this back in Virginia.

    If it is by all means try attend and be certified.
    Last edited by CaptOldTimer; 08-04-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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    Shire
    If you are simply looking to broaden your knowledge, maybe train your fellow FF's then this class probably wouldn't be bad. The question then becomes will your Chief even allow / recognize you as a valid in house trainer to teach this (esp if you go after he said no).

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    I would follow and abide what the Chief has told you.

    My question to the brother in Manassas: Is this TnT class being done through, recognized and sanctioned by the Virginia Department of Fire Programs (DFP)?

    Are you an Instructor through the DFP? Taking this course will give you the basics and maybe good informaation, but you might not be albe to instruct this back in Virginia.

    If it is by all means try attend and be certified.
    If you are indeed looking to teach something sanctioned & recognized by VDFP then the Capt. made some good points and Box's suggestion is (currently) your best option.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    VDFP MayDay train-the-trainer at the 2011 Instructor Symposium on August 20 & 21 down in Fredericksburg at Mary Washington. It's a 2-day, 16-hour class. It was offered last year as well when the Symposium was held in Goochland.

    Registration information here: 2011 Instructor Symposium.

    Might be something for you to look into...
    As of right now VDFP only has 2 Mayday programs:
    Mayday Awareness - covers the same material that is now included in the standard FFI curriculum - meant for any FF certified prior to the change to get them up to speed

    Mayday Operations - covers ROAM, LUNAR, some self escape techniques, Denver Drill, Columbus Drill, Drags / Carries, SCBA changeover / RIT pack, and entanglement & wall breach. It was intended to be the self / partner rescue oriented class.


    They are currently working on the 3rd course (which may or not be called Mayday Technician last I heard) which will be geared more to leading a RIT team & team functions. I have no idea when that is intended to hit the streets but I will see what I can find out at the Symposium Box mentioned.


    Bottom line - any training is good training (even bad training b/c it shows you what not to do) so if you want to go on your own time & your own dime and have the resources to do so then by all means have at it.

    However, rather that trying to convince the Chief to send you to a T-t-T class, maybe you can talk him into hosting the student class in your area. Most companies like this will allow the host agency X number of slots and no/reduce cost in return for covering the logistics & providing the facility.

    Either way - good luck & keep training.
    Last edited by N2DFire; 08-04-2011 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Forgot to spell Check
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    I'm sorry maybe I didn't read closely enough but did you offer to the chief to pay your own way?

    My chief has never had a problem with me paying my own way to classes and using department gear/equipment. But I am also lucky enough that rarely do I need to pay my own way as the department covers almost anything we want to take.
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    Gotta agree with Dickey - he is your Chief. Having said that , did you try a schedule another sit down with him ? (by schedule , I mean set a time at his coinvience) and discuss it in length.
    Maybe suggest both you and your training officer attend, then you and the training officer work up a class that will fit the resources and needs of YOUR dept.
    If I was your Chief , I would take notice of your initative and it would be appreciated. What I wouldnt appreciate would be you to take it on your own and then try to spread your newly found knowledge in a piecemeal fashion. I also would not appreciate you asking strangers on an internet forum for advise on what should be a department matter.
    ?

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    Thanks for all the comments, I would like to first say that I am most likely going to try and get the MAY-DAY t-t-t through VDFP at the Symposium (just got a reply back from the Chief and that was what he suggested). As for the RIT t-t-t in Indy....I may just wait and save up and go another time.

    Now just to put this out there with my experience and post number and what not (by no means am I trying to brag just want to try and let you know more about me) I have so little posts because I mainly come to this site to LEARN new things and read the posts, I only really post when I feel it is necessary (I do post random stuff from time to time as well). As for 5 years exp. yea thats correct, but have been around this my whole life and want nothing more. I learned just about everything I know from my dad and my crew even before I joined the department. Heck at age 5 I knew every tool on the engine at "my dads" station (and boy was he proud). I try and take as many classes as I can not because I can, but because I want to. I want to be able to pass my training to new members and be the kinda firefighter that recruits look up to and come to for training, I don't EVER wanna be that guy who sits in front of the TV the entire shift. And thats all I got to say for now.....please don't bash this or try to take it for anything other then what it is...Thank you and stay safe
    Last edited by FireInTheShire; 08-04-2011 at 02:46 PM.

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    Shire,

    Maybe the Chief misunderstood you that you were going to bill the department? There is nothing wrong with getting the training and paying for it yourself, as long as you get permission to use the department gear. I appreciate your comments about coming here to learn, and for a little stress relief too, like me, and maybe by accident you learn something!!


    Crabby...

    Yes, I did listen to your AC for Arnie's incident (RIP). I actually met him once and shared a Coke with him for a few minutes at GBFD #5...he seemed like a super guy. At least others can learn from that incident and hopefully prevent another LODD. In fact myself and another local guy here got several SOG's from him and we were the driving force to change our countywide 20 min. timer to a 10 min. timer.

    I agree with you that RIT, the theory and fundamentals are the same no matter where you go from big city to hooterville, just the procedures are bit different depending on available personnel, dept. set up, etc. Unfortunately it sometimes depends on funding which will get you in trouble. I don't agree with it at all because like you, I feel it doesn't matter what the cost is. However, some city officials disagree. That is why we have to be very vocal and justify RIT training and equipment. Still, some places turn a blind eye which really ******es me off. It shows they don't care about their firefighters so they won't give them the proper equipment or training. Believe me, I play that game all the time and hate politics!

    Myself and a few others have been trying to start a countywide mutual aid RIT team here with some success. We have an agreement with our neighbors that we will call them and they will call us. In fact I built it into Altoona's MABAS cards. We have had the basic training and are now working on inter-department training. As a group, we are still trying to get all the equipment that is needed which we are very close. We are doing the best with what we have I guess but we can certainly do more.

    Maybe what Shire should do is campaign to the Chief to start their own RIT training. Pressure other departments to get on board as well so everyone is on the same page. If the Chief truly blew him off, then he should be vocal about it and ask again, nicely of course. The answer still could be no but at least the point would be made. Maybe Shire should check with the local technical college to see what they offer as well.

    I think we agree but are just telling it differently.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

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    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireInTheShire View Post
    Thanks for all the comments, I would like to first say that I am most likely going to try and get the MAY-DAY t-t-t through VDFP at the Symposium
    Hey Shire -

    I don't have any info on who is going to be teaching that T-t-T, but if it's any of the "usual suspects" from down here in Roanoke & over in the Tidewater area - then you'll have a great class. I took my initial Mayday and both my T-t-T's (long story) from roughly the same group and they are as Gung-Ho pro Mayday as I've seen.

    Right now I'm going to be there for the D/O Pumper T-t-T and if I pass the pre-test this week then the D/O Aerial T-t-T as well so if you do make it then look me up.

    I'm a fairly new Mayday instructor and a very very new (still waiting for my EIN) Adjunct Instructor with VDFP (Division 6) so if there's anything I can do to help you out then please let me know.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire View Post
    Hey Shire -

    I don't have any info on who is going to be teaching that T-t-T, but if it's any of the "usual suspects" from down here in Roanoke & over in the Tidewater area - then you'll have a great class. I took my initial Mayday and both my T-t-T's (long story) from roughly the same group and they are as Gung-Ho pro Mayday as I've seen.

    Right now I'm going to be there for the D/O Pumper T-t-T and if I pass the pre-test this week then the D/O Aerial T-t-T as well so if you do make it then look me up.

    I'm a fairly new Mayday instructor and a very very new (still waiting for my EIN) Adjunct Instructor with VDFP (Division 6) so if there's anything I can do to help you out then please let me know.
    Awesome thanks, and ill be sure to find you if I make it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    I agree with you that RIT, the theory and fundamentals are the same no matter where you go from big city to hooterville, just the procedures are bit different depending on available personnel, dept. set up, etc. Unfortunately it sometimes depends on funding which will get you in trouble. I don't agree with it at all because like you, I feel it doesn't matter what the cost is. However, some city officials disagree. That is why we have to be very vocal and justify RIT training and equipment. Still, some places turn a blind eye which really ******es me off. It shows they don't care about their firefighters so they won't give them the proper equipment or training. Believe me, I play that game all the time and hate politics!

    Myself and a few others have been trying to start a countywide mutual aid RIT team here with some success. We have an agreement with our neighbors that we will call them and they will call us. In fact I built it into Altoona's MABAS cards. We have had the basic training and are now working on inter-department training. As a group, we are still trying to get all the equipment that is needed which we are very close. We are doing the best with what we have I guess but we can certainly do more.

    Maybe what Shire should do is campaign to the Chief to start their own RIT training. Pressure other departments to get on board as well so everyone is on the same page. If the Chief truly blew him off, then he should be vocal about it and ask again, nicely of course. The answer still could be no but at least the point would be made. Maybe Shire should check with the local technical college to see what they offer as well.

    I think we agree but are just telling it differently.
    Perhaps we are saying the same thing differently. The issue I took was what looked like a "wait and see" approach. It looked as though the chief said to look to the county (for reimbursement) or even wait on a class. My issue is there is no reason to wait on politics, be it internal or external, especially when it comes to something as important as RIT.

    So the sentiment of setting up a dept's own RIT training and offering it up does address the issue that there isn't a reason nor need to await on the county. My other issue about doing things the same is that it really doesn't matter, because the end goal is the same. It seemed that was the issue you were taking and I understand the circumstances of getting things established etc.

    Really, in the end, the issue remains there is a member willing to take advantage of training, especially one that truly is beneficial to many, that shouldn't be feigned off. I agree if there hasn't been anything or much in place on a widespread level, there is no reaon to wait a county, etc to develop training etc. I agree if there were feet being dragged, then that gives a better reason to step up. With such RIT training being widespread from calling a MAYDAY and self survival and egress like ladder bailouts, to RIT techniques from the Denver drill, etc, there is much that a person can obtain and pass on without awaiting a county or larger entity. To me, that is the basics of RIT, techniques.....not a tool cache, special equipment, nor even standard procedures, but techniques utilizing basic fireground equipment.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    I have learned quickly in the past couple of years that there is a time and place for everything and to pick your battles. I have also learned to play the politics game just enough to get what you want. You attract more with honey than you do crap and crap only attracts flies (and Snowball...hehehe).

    Sometimes it's best to wait a bit and get what you want than to rush into it and get denied. Then again, sometimes it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. The key is know which way to play it, timing is everything.

    In this case, I feel because of the safety aspect, it shouldn't wait. Get the proper training as soon as you can, as long as it is the correct training.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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