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Thread: PUC Engines

  1. #21
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    I would check the torque rating for the repto vs. the torque requirement for the pump. They can both be found online. Everyone talks about the pump and roll capability of the puc;does anyone do much of that at high flows? At a normal P&R flow I would think just about any PTO pump is as, if not more, efficient.


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    If you're not completely set on the PUC pump, which I am not for a variety of reasons, Any manufactuerer can build a narrow pump house, and put compartmentation around it. Be careful when considering some designs pump panel - compartmentation layout. The Square Footage calculation will include the compartment area that the pump panel is taking up space in.

    As with any apparatus, service after the sale and the overall construction needs the most attention. Some popular manufacturers today are way off the mark compared to where they were 10 years ago and the quality shows. Stay away from lots of plastic parts and cabs and compartments that have a lot of polished stainless trim pieces. Typically all that is covering up something beneath it. It's also advisable to look away from manufacturers that use a ton of proprietary parts. Normally you can only get those parts from factory authorized dealers. That won't help much 5-10-15 years down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EES_SEAN View Post
    If you're not completely set on the PUC pump, which I am not for a variety of reasons, Any manufactuerer can build a narrow pump house, and put compartmentation around it. Be careful when considering some designs pump panel - compartmentation layout. The Square Footage calculation will include the compartment area that the pump panel is taking up space in.
    I'd like to reinforce this point even more - that first compartment on many PUCs is virtually useless as its almost all pump controls. The same applies to other configurations, so I'm not just picking on the the PUC. We have two rear mount pumpers, one of which the manufacturer used virtually the entire compartment on the rear officer side for their panel. I KNOW that they didn't need to use that much space, but no one would make a stand about it to the builder so we lost 3/4 of a compartment to nothing but an oversized pump panel. Be wary of inflated storage volume figures. Some builders do a great job of minimizing the impact of a pump panel in a compartment, others not so much.
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    You could also try Miami-Dade Fire Rescue. I believe they have several PUC pumpers in service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    I'd like to reinforce this point even more - that first compartment on many PUCs is virtually useless as its almost all pump controls. The same applies to other configurations, so I'm not just picking on the the PUC. We have two rear mount pumpers, one of which the manufacturer used virtually the entire compartment on the rear officer side for their panel. I KNOW that they didn't need to use that much space, but no one would make a stand about it to the builder so we lost 3/4 of a compartment to nothing but an oversized pump panel. Be wary of inflated storage volume figures. Some builders do a great job of minimizing the impact of a pump panel in a compartment, others not so much.
    I definitely know where you're coming from. I've seen more than a few rear mounts like that. The Dr's rear cmpt was basically a covered pump panel, with maybe some adaptors mounted to the side, or a hydrant length or two on the bottom.

    That was one of the things that impressed me most on the MVP. How compact they were able to make that pump panel- heck, there are 2 vertical slide out tool boards, AND shelving in that first compartment! Makes me wonder why the HECK most pump panels are so big to begin with.

    I like the idea of a pumper capable of volume pump and roll, w/o needing to have a second engine to drive the pump. (and ending up the size of an ARFF truck...) Granted, you most likely won't need that capability often. It would sure be nice for those well involved garages at 0 dark thirty, to be able to nail it with a good sized bumper monitor as you pull up- or bury the exposed house in foam. Ground floor taxpayer fires come to mind as well. I believe both Fallon, NV and Rattlesnake, CO own rigs like that. I think they're hot shift PTO, though.

    I, too, am anxious to hear from PUC owners how that pump works out for them. Our neighbor's is brand new- about a year.

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    Boxalarm please correct me if i am wrong. But doesnt your puc at work have a higher friction loss in the internal plumbing when compared to you alls regular engines? Or was the person that told me that misinformed?

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    RFd, let me see what I can find out about the FL in the plumbing on that.

    As for this year's pump test on our 2008 PUC pumper, here are the results:
    • 150PSI - 1506 GPM
    • 200PSI - 1063 GPM
    • 250PSI - 750 GPM
    • Time to obtain draft: 12 seconds (Tridet air primer)
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    Can you provide the pump test RPM to go along with the PSI and GPM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 16Scott View Post
    Can you provide the pump test RPM to go along with the PSI and GPM?
    Sure, give me a couple of days.
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    “The MVP uses the standard split shaft drive. If you want pump and roll, they will install an auxiliary engine driven pump as well. Seems like a win-win package: compact, simplified pump panel, frame rail height crosslays, and a crap-ton of compartment space.”

    Using an auxiliary engine driven pump or even an additional PTO pump for the low, low price of……... is not a win at all for me. If the PUC has pump & roll as standard, why pay for more stuff that you don’t need.

    “As you pointed out, there are other manufacturers out there doing PUC designs, such as this PUC-style aerial from Rosenbauer. The Ferrara MVP has been mentioned, and there's also the EMAx from E-One, the PRO from KME, and the Transformer from Crimson. Each of these designs offer an "alternative" design to the standard mid-ship pump, and I believe each have their own strengths and weaknesses.”
    “That was one of the things that impressed me most on the MVP. How compact they were able to make that pump panel- heck, there are 2 vertical slide out tool boards, AND shelving in that first compartment! Makes me wonder why the HECK most pump panels are so big to begin with.”


    The Rosenbauer uses an end suction pump, but also uses a split-shaft transfer case. The E-ONE, Ferrara and KME use a standard pump configuration, they just place bodywork around the pump panel. There is nothing new there. Cold climates folks have done that for years.
    The way Crimson, Ferrara and KME make the pump panel on the driver’s side so compact as you stated is that all of the valves are electric. On the officer’s side, the front compartment has half of its space taken up by the pump panel. At least E-ONE uses some manual valves. I don’t know for sure how the Crimson pump is driven. I suspect it is PTO from the transmission. If that is the case, PTO drives typically are limited to 1250 gpm. They are claiming 1500 gpm.
    The following video from Ferrara shows the MVP in action. Look at the officer's side compartment space (or lack of) at 2:10.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...embedded#at=14
    This link from KME shows in detail an all electric valve pump panel and an officer’s side compartment full of plumbing.
    http://fire.kovatch.com/ProductDivis...iesPumper.aspx

    The PUC offers a full compartment on this side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CareerLt View Post
    “The MVP uses the standard split shaft drive. If you want pump and roll, they will install an auxiliary engine driven pump as well. Seems like a win-win package: compact, simplified pump panel, frame rail height crosslays, and a crap-ton of compartment space.”

    Using an auxiliary engine driven pump or even an additional PTO pump for the low, low price of……... is not a win at all for me. If the PUC has pump & roll as standard, why pay for more stuff that you don’t need.

    I think you answered your own question, as an option, if you don't need it, don't order it.


    “As you pointed out, there are other manufacturers out there doing PUC designs, such as this PUC-style aerial from Rosenbauer. The Ferrara MVP has been mentioned, and there's also the EMAx from E-One, the PRO from KME, and the Transformer from Crimson. Each of these designs offer an "alternative" design to the standard mid-ship pump, and I believe each have their own strengths and weaknesses.”
    “That was one of the things that impressed me most on the MVP. How compact they were able to make that pump panel- heck, there are 2 vertical slide out tool boards, AND shelving in that first compartment! Makes me wonder why the HECK most pump panels are so big to begin with.”


    The Rosenbauer uses an end suction pump, but also uses a split-shaft transfer case. The E-ONE, Ferrara and KME use a standard pump configuration, they just place bodywork around the pump panel. There is nothing new there. Cold climates folks have done that for years.
    The way Crimson, Ferrara and KME make the pump panel on the driver’s side so compact as you stated is that all of the valves are electric. On the officer’s side, the front compartment has half of its space taken up by the pump panel. At least E-ONE uses some manual valves. I don’t know for sure how the Crimson pump is driven. I suspect it is PTO from the transmission. If that is the case, PTO drives typically are limited to 1250 gpm. They are claiming 1500 gpm.
    The following video from Ferrara shows the MVP in action. Look at the officer's side compartment space (or lack of) at 2:10.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...embedded#at=14
    This link from KME shows in detail an all electric valve pump panel and an officer’s side compartment full of plumbing.
    http://fire.kovatch.com/ProductDivis...iesPumper.aspx

    The PUC offers a full compartment on this side.
    I'm not sure what you have against electric valves, but in this example, it does add compartment space vs a regular midship pump panel. Moving the preconnects ahead of the pump at frame rail height makes the space above the pump usable as well. Is the ENTIRE front compt usable for storage? No. There is, however lots of storage elsewhere.

    Not trying to argue with you, I just think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Just a different way of arriving at the same destination. All of these different styles offer improved compartment space, lower preconnects, and reasonable wheelbases, vs "traditional" style midship pumpers. If you HAVE to have manual valves, you could always locate them at the point of use- such as with water thieves, or a simple ball valve.

    I'm enjoying this thread- it's turned into an interesting discussion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CareerLt View Post
    Using an auxiliary engine driven pump or even an additional PTO pump for the low, low price of……... is not a win at all for me. If the PUC has pump & roll as standard, why pay for more stuff that you don’t need.
    Carrying that thought one step further, if you don't have the need for pump-and-roll on a Pierce PUC, delete it for credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by CareerLT View Post
    The Rosenbauer uses an end suction pump, but also uses a split-shaft transfer case. The E-ONE, Ferrara and KME use a standard pump configuration, they just place bodywork around the pump panel. There is nothing new there. Cold climates folks have done that for years.
    True on all accounts. I guess the question could be made: is the customer looking for a vehicle that uses an "alternative" pump location, or simply maximizes the use of compartment space relative to the traditional pump house while leaving the pump itself in it's standard location?

    Quote Originally Posted by CareerLT
    The way Crimson, Ferrara and KME make the pump panel on the driver’s side so compact as you stated is that all of the valves are electric. On the officer’s side, the front compartment has half of its space taken up by the pump panel. At least E-ONE uses some manual valves.
    Over the past year, I've talked to a lot of industry experts about manual versus electric valves, and no one can produce any proof that there's a higher failure rate for either of the valves. Perhaps the electric valves have matured enough that they're able to handle fire service rigors? (For those customers that prefer that style valve, of course)

    As for the use of manual vs electric, the E-One panel is all manual, as evidenced in this photo from FDIC 2011:



    For comparison's sake, here's the Crimson Transformer panel:



    As for the KME PRO [edited by OP], they are using a compact pump panel through the use of electric valves and the front bulkhead of the compartment,...



    ...but take a look at the forward-most compartment on the officer's side:



    Here's a shot of the former demo FFA MVP that is now in service in DE:


    Quote Originally Posted by CareerLT
    I don’t know for sure how the Crimson pump is driven. I suspect it is PTO from the transmission. If that is the case, PTO drives typically are limited to 1250 gpm. They are claiming 1500 gpm.
    Yes, it is a PTO driven pump.

    Quote Originally Posted by CareerLT
    The PUC offers a full compartment on this side.
    We had a Rosenbauer demo at the VFD a couple of months ago that did as well.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 08-14-2011 at 04:59 PM.
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    Thanks for the pictures!

    The KME engine reminds me of ST Louis's engines- NO intakes or discharges on the driver's side, they're all on the officer's side. Smeal did this using a Hale 8FG pump and a custom manifold. KME probably did something similar.

    Those intakes have to go somewhere, and if you want the best flow with the least friction loss due to excessive plumbing, they need to go directly into the impeller. Looks like all those designs included more than adequate storage space.

    That E-one is interesting- I'd love to see behind the pump panel how all those linkages were done. Looks like the pull handles are located behind the pump.

    The Crimson looks really different- the pump sits a lot farther back. Looks like it's behind the forward compts. The control panel up in the wheelhouse compt seems to make sense- on most of our trucks, that compt wasn't very deep.

    That MVP demo unit is set up differently from the one in the video link. In this one, the pump panel has it's own separate compt, while the rig in the video combines those 2 into 1 big one. I like how they used the space above the speedlays. That stokes comp looks like it's transverse! Looks like some healthy floodlighting on the side, too. I wonder what the deal is with the wired in yellow trouble light?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    Thanks for the pictures!

    That MVP demo unit is set up differently from the one in the video link....I wonder what the deal is with the wired in yellow trouble light?
    You're most welcome.

    I don't see the light you're referring to. If you're talking about the long coiled cord with the box on the end of it, that's the tethered remote for the Will-Burt light tower.
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    [QUOTE=BoxAlarm187;1288522]Carrying that thought one step further, if you don't have the need for pump-and-roll on a Pierce PUC, delete it for credit.



    True on all accounts. I guess the question could be made: is the customer looking for a vehicle that uses an "alternative" pump location, or simply maximizes the use of compartment space relative to the traditional pump house while leaving the pump itself in it's standard location?



    Over the past year, I've talked to a lot of industry experts about manual versus electric valves, and no one can produce any proof that there's a higher failure rate for either of the valves. Perhaps the electric valves have matured enough that they're able to handle fire service rigors? (For those customers that prefer that style valve, of course)

    As for the use of manual vs electric, the E-One panel is all manual, as evidenced in this photo from FDIC 2011:


    I think this is a KME and not a E-One......


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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    I think this is a KME and not a E-One......
    Nope, it's an E-One:



    Here's the KME:
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Over the past year, I've talked to a lot of industry experts about manual versus electric valves, and no one can produce any proof that there's a higher failure rate for either of the valves. Perhaps the electric valves have matured enough that they're able to handle fire service rigors? (For those customers that prefer that style valve, of course)




    As for the E-One EMax, they are using a compact pump panel through the use of electric valves and the front bulkhead of the compartment,...



    ...but take a look at the forward-most compartment on the officer's side:

    These two photos are KME. The panels and steamer caps say so...

    Even if electric valves aren't failing like they used to (I know in the early 90's of many departments that had them locally, and had a hell of a time with them), you'll pay a premium for them. They get expensive quickly.

    These photos of all of these so-called space savers prove just like everything else, you give up space somewhere else to make things work or appear to be some genuine miracle of space efficiency. Sure, there are some packaging improvements, but I still believe a rear mount pump with a rear panel will probably yield the most compartment space for a given body length and tank, and yes I know there are sacrifices with that concept too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    These two photos are KME. The panels and steamer caps say so....
    Joel, thanks for the correction, now I see where I made the mistake. Too much early morning typing and cutting and pasting...
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    These photos of all of these so-called space savers prove just like everything else, you give up space somewhere else to make things work or appear to be some genuine miracle of space efficiency.
    Agreed. Like everything, there is give and take. It does shorten the wheelbase up, but the pump panel has got to go somewhere. The E-One is available with electric valves (might have already been mentioned), but again, there is a good sized price increase associated with them. Care, maintenance and training will keep them working for a long time. Most products available for us are going to give us a long useful life... but that is going to be determined by the build and installation before we get our hands on them. Back to the PUC/eMax/KME, I think I still trust a standard pump transmission for the main fire pump instead of the PTO driven.
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    My department is in the process of spec'ing out a rescue-pumper. We've had a number of manufacturers out to show us their trucks. We are trying to maximize space for rescue equipment so the pump panel is a big concern for us. As for the pics of the KME Pro and the compartment on the officers side, I'd like to see that configuration on a rear mount truck with the pump panel on the offers side. Then all of the discharges and intakes would be off of the rear of the truck. That would leave the compartment on the other side wide open, right?

    As for the electric valves vs. manual valves.. I've never dealt with electric valves and my concern with them was if there is a failure, is there a manual override? I asked a Crimson sales rep this question and his reply was that they do have manual overrides for every electric valve but it may take a while to get to them. That does me no good if the fecal matter hits the fan!!

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