1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    .

    Currently I use the following thought process for fire ground handline selection.

    Small- Bread and Butter Fire- 1 3/4 at 150 GPM
    Med- Fire blowing out a window or two- 1 3/4 at 200 GPM
    Large- Advanced Fire conditions- 2 1/2 at 265 GPM
    O S***- well Involved defensive fire that will change to a offensive fire-2 1/2 at 325 GPM
    O F****- I dont need detail to discribe this- master stream
    This is a great way to look at it! I particularly like the last two categories! In my experience, that's exactly what the entire crew of the first due says as they pull up. Amazing how a lil fire can get 6 very different people to all say the exact same thing at the same time.

    Category 5 was also known as a two octave fire in my dept. Simply because that's what the chief's voice did on the radio as he called a working fire.

    Occasionally, at a cat 4, you'll get a pump operator with an understanding of how an automatic nozzle works. Combine that with a bad case of the "OH SNAP"'s, and you get the nozzle crew being lifted up off the ground...

    Our engines used to be set up with the first crosslay having a 15/16 tip, and the rest having TFT Handlines. At some point in time, the decision was made to switch to 1.75" (from2"), and crosslays were reduced to 2 per rig- 1 200', and 1 300'. A 2.5" was moved to the crosslay, as well. The smoothbores got relegated to the engineer's compartment... We get new tools, hose, and nozzles with each new rig, so a fleet wide replacement doesn't happen. The 2.5's get playpipes, either TFT or Elkhart. The TFT's have automatics- they're non break aparts. The Elkharts are breakaparts, with stacked tips, or SM-20's ( yeah, I didn't understand the sm-20 thing either), The smoothbore is normally in place.

    I vividly recall providing an engine for the academy intermediate class one evening. (depts took turns providing apparatus for the class to use) That night was a live fire class in the structural trainer. When students pulled the first line, they were confused by the smoothbore nozzle!! Apparently, we were very much in the minority carrying one on a preconnect... The student on the knob asked if I had a different nozzle for it, so I gave him the spare TFT. Kinda surprised and dismayed me that none of these students wanted to even try it out... I ended up pumping two 2" ers and a 2.5 simultaneously, and dropping my intake pressure to >10 psi, through a 100' section of 5". Apparently, the water main back there is small, and doesn't like 5" hose and big pumps!

    At another session, an excited student nearly charged my supply bed before the instructor saw what he was doing, and shut the line down... Had to pull 100' of full 5" off the hosebed, and the whole class got a stern lecture from the instructor on WHY you wait for the pump to CALL for water before charging the line...

    The instructors used to watch for students gating back on the nozzle and would mess with them unmercifully. This is a propane burn building, and they'd either not allow the fire to go out, or they'd keep reigniting it, and beat the stuffing out of you. Afterwards, they'd tell you about how gating back reduced your flow, and if they'd wanted a booster line pulled, they'd ask for it. You can tell people in drills/ classes etc until you're blue in the face about gating back on the nozzle, but they never get it like they do when you SHOW them.

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    Sm-20 on a 2.5?? Strange that
    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    Sm-20 on a 2.5?? Strange that
    That's what I said! I think the SM-30 is for the bigger lines. My guess is that since we keep the smoothbore tips on the nozzle... Plus, ISO wants a playpipe with tips. The auto tip is just another option. I, personally, have never seen the selectomatic tip used on this line at a real fire. If all you need to flow is 200gpm, why pull the big line?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    That's what I said! I think the SM-30 is for the bigger lines. My guess is that since we keep the smoothbore tips on the nozzle... Plus, ISO wants a playpipe with tips. The auto tip is just another option. I, personally, have never seen the selectomatic tip used on this line at a real fire. If all you need to flow is 200gpm, why pull the big line?
    The SM-20's max flow is 200 GPM. Having one on a 2.5" line makes no sense. The SM-30's max flow is 325 GPM. This is a much better option.

    Where did you hear that ISO requires play pipes and stack tips? As far as I know all they want to see is 2 smooth bores and 2 fogs for your 2.5" lines per engine.
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    I personally think any fstandard og on a 2 1/2 is a paperweight 99 percent of the time. To much pressure and reaction force when compared to a 2 1/2 with a SB.

    And having a fog on your 2 1/2 inch high rise pack is a horrible Idea.

    With a 1 1/8 SB I can hold a 2 1/2 by myself. I cannot do that with a fog nozzle.

    Now that is with a 100psi fog on the 2 1/2. I have never flowed a low pressure fog on one.

    Just like when you see a stack tip with a 1 inch tip on the 2 1/2. Why? 210 GPM out of a 2 1/2 why not just flow 200 out of an 1 3/4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    The SM-20's max flow is 200 GPM. Having one on a 2.5" line makes no sense. The SM-30's max flow is 325 GPM. This is a much better option.

    Where did you hear that ISO requires play pipes and stack tips? As far as I know all they want to see is 2 smooth bores and 2 fogs for your 2.5" lines per engine.
    I agree 100%, but I wasn't in charge of purchasing... Your second paragraph is likely the reason they were purchased- to have fog tips for them, even if we never plan on using them.

    I saw that in an article in an issue of Fire Rescue magazine, about how one dept improved their rating from a 9 to a 4. The inspector didn't give them credit for 2, 250 gpm fog playpipes. It may well have been that the issue was that they weren't breakaparts, and thus the strait tips they had couldn't be used on them.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    I personally think any fstandard og on a 2 1/2 is a paperweight 99 percent of the time. To much pressure and reaction force when compared to a 2 1/2 with a SB.

    And having a fog on your 2 1/2 inch high rise pack is a horrible Idea.

    With a 1 1/8 SB I can hold a 2 1/2 by myself. I cannot do that with a fog nozzle.

    Now that is with a 100psi fog on the 2 1/2. I have never flowed a low pressure fog on one.

    Just like when you see a stack tip with a 1 inch tip on the 2 1/2. Why? 210 GPM out of a 2 1/2 why not just flow 200 out of an 1 3/4.
    I couldn't agree more, and I'll go one further: I'd vastly prefer a regular smoothbore nozzle to a playpipe- esp if the line is being used offensively. PP's just seem clunky to me.

    If I pulled the 2.5", I always made sure the 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 tip was on it. If you're gonna go with the big line, you might as well be able to flow the big water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    I agree 100%, but I wasn't in charge of purchasing... Your second paragraph is likely the reason they were purchased- to have fog tips for them, even if we never plan on using them.

    I saw that in an article in an issue of Fire Rescue magazine, about how one dept improved their rating from a 9 to a 4. The inspector didn't give them credit for 2, 250 gpm fog playpipes. It may well have been that the issue was that they weren't breakaparts, and thus the strait tips they had couldn't be used on them.
    So you're saying the department in question had two shutoffs with 4 nozzles, 2 smooth bore and 2 fog, and because they couldnt interchange them they didn't get credit? Unless something is different from the last "Engine Company" equipment list, they want 2 2.5" fog nozzles with shutoffs and 2 2.5" smooth bore nozzles with shutoffs. So I guess the above situation makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    I couldn't agree more, and I'll go one further: I'd vastly prefer a regular smoothbore nozzle to a playpipe- esp if the line is being used offensively. PP's just seem clunky to me.

    If I pulled the 2.5", I always made sure the 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 tip was on it. If you're gonna go with the big line, you might as well be able to flow the big water.
    We use playpipes with stacked tips on our 2.5s here, 1", "1 1/8, 1 1/4, 1 1/2 tips. We only pull them for large structures, Break it down to the 1 1/2 tip and you can loop and sit a get somewhere around 480 gpm.
    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    So you're saying the department in question had two shutoffs with 4 nozzles, 2 smooth bore and 2 fog, and because they couldnt interchange them they didn't get credit? Unless something is different from the last "Engine Company" equipment list, they want 2 2.5" fog nozzles with shutoffs and 2 2.5" smooth bore nozzles with shutoffs. So I guess the above situation makes sense.
    I suppose I should have mentioned that this was an older issue. I can't remember if the why was explained, and I do not have that issue with me...

    I just remember seeing a photo of their engineer's cmpt, with two of the old style all chrome Akron fog playpipes. There were some sets of stacked tips in there as well. Perhaps I got it backwards, and ISO wanted 4 separate nozzles, not two with interchangable tips... Seems a bit excessive to need FOUR 2.5" nozzles per company. I can't recall ever seeing that many 2.5's in use from 1 rig, or even that many 2.5" lines ON a single rig.

    We carry 2 per rig, usually ON preconnects. Our old Pierce has 3 2.5" lines- 2 with nozzles, and a third with a wye for use with hose packs. The handlines don't get used very much- really big fires are rare here.

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    [QUOTE=GTRider245;1288049]Bones, while I agree that pistol grips do not cause poor nozzle handling, they without a doubt promote it. QUOTE]

    Well said.

    I am a user of a CAFS engine with 150 to 200 ft. of preconnect 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 smoothbore pistol grips. They work very well for us. I think it all goes to training and size up on how you operate your line, not necessarily the nozzle. Alot of fire, alot of (soapy) water. I would much rather flow excess water out of a smoothbore than not enough out of a incorrectly or wrongly-accidently set combo nozzle. I know the PSI that will be running on my line so in my opinion I shouldn't have to set a GPM to run at on my nozzle. It only causes more problems.

    More often than not, your ventilation in a volunteer response area will not be spot on coordinated with your attack lines. So the smoothbore will drastically lower the chance of getting steam burns.

    We carry combos on our engines, however the preconnects are smoothbores.

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    GT, I bet you talked to Mac McGarrity, didn't you? He basically sold you the exact same thing that he sold my department a few years back. While I like those two nozzles, and the Key Combat hose that we bought with them, that guy is a salesman first and foremost, and a VERY opinionated one at that.

    I took a high rise class from him and a guy from Chicago Fire, and the class turned into a giant sales pitch for a product that hadn't been released yet, was projected to cost upwards of $40,000, and is only suitable for large departments with lots of money and lots of large high rises that catch fire all the time.

    We use the same setup with the Chief nozzle, and we also have the smoothbore. However, we use a 1" long-taper tip with a stream straightener behind it. The 1" tip because we're using Key Combat 1 3/4" hose that is nearly 2" hose once you pressurize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    GT, I bet you talked to Mac McGarrity, didn't you? He basically sold you the exact same thing that he sold my department a few years back. While I like those two nozzles, and the Key Combat hose that we bought with them, that guy is a salesman first and foremost, and a VERY opinionated one at that.

    I took a high rise class from him and a guy from Chicago Fire, and the class turned into a giant sales pitch for a product that hadn't been released yet, was projected to cost upwards of $40,000, and is only suitable for large departments with lots of money and lots of large high rises that catch fire all the time.

    We use the same setup with the Chief nozzle, and we also have the smoothbore. However, we use a 1" long-taper tip with a stream straightener behind it. The 1" tip because we're using Key Combat 1 3/4" hose that is nearly 2" hose once you pressurize it.
    Hey man,

    I just saw this post from a few weeks ago. Yes, I dealt with Mac McGarry on the nozzles. I have taken a few of his engine ops classes as well as a high rise class. He is a very knoweledgeable individual when it comes to this stuff.

    While I agree that he can be opinionated (after all, he works for Elkhart), I don't know if I would go as far as to say he is a salesman first. Main reason I say that is because the exact setup he pushes is made up of the lowest priced products that Elkhart sells. He will tell you right off the bat that he can get you 3 smooth bores for the price of a single Select-O-Matic, and then tell you the reasons why the SB is a better choice (depending on application). The other reasons he gives for choosing Elkhart over competition can all be discovered on your own (all metal construction, service history, etc.). I spent almost an hour on the phone with him when we were going through our specs and it doesn't take long to figure out that he has his heart in this business.

    As far as the class expirience goes, I am assuming you are talking about Elkhart's Hero Pipe system. I agree with you- impractical for most fire departments.

    Our nozzles came in today, and we will be training with them tonight. I am waiting for the new fiscal year to come in so we can order some Ponn Conquest to match them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BenFireFan View Post
    With so few actual fires, and so many actual medical calls, we tried to totally simplify our operations.
    Sounds like us. To simplify our operations we now pull up and throw 1000cc bags of normal saline at the fire until it goes out. Doesn't work very well but every medic can do it......

    Seriously though, we changed overt to Elkhart Chief 150gpm@50psi fogs about two years ago from SM-20's on all preconected 1-3/4 fog lines, our other 1-3/4 preconects are 15/16" SB's. I am in no way a nozzle expert but I will say that whatever you go to make sure that training is conducted for ALL positions. We made flow charts using in-line pressure gauges for EACH of our preconnects. Remember that not all hose gives you the same friction loss and pump pressures need to be adjusted accordingly so you get proper nozzle operation. It took putting some of our drivers on the nozzle and pumping them at the pressures they were giving us to make them realize that CQ squared L can give you WAY too much. The flow charts also help some of the medics when they step up to drive, now if they could only get the pump in gear.............
    If your going to cry about doing the job you signed up for do us all a favor and quit, there are plenty of dedicated people standing in line for the best job in the world.

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    I have more of a question to go along with this discussion than a comment. We have selectomatics, phantom adjustable gallonage and chief break apart nozzles where I work. Who has much experience with any of these and in your opinion what are the up/downsides of each?? Also where in your opinion does the adjustable gallonage come into play if at all??? I personally believe there are much better options for a nozzle to take into a structure fire than adjustable gallonage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irons33fd View Post
    I have more of a question to go along with this discussion than a comment. We have selectomatics, phantom adjustable gallonage and chief break apart nozzles where I work. Who has much experience with any of these and in your opinion what are the up/downsides of each?? Also where in your opinion does the adjustable gallonage come into play if at all??? I personally believe there are much better options for a nozzle to take into a structure fire than adjustable gallonage.
    Select-O-Matics: In my opinion every bit as good as the more famous TFTs. I prefer the SM-30 because of it's higher flow. Like every other automatic it does what it is designed to do and usually the problem comes from lack of training for the nozzle person, the pump operator, company officers, and lack of maintenance. Available in 75 or 100 psi models.

    Phantom Adjustable Gallonage Nozzle: Again does exactly what it was designed to do, allow control of the flow by dialing a specific gallonage flow. Coordination between the nozzle operator and the pump operator is paramount. If the nozzle is set at one gpm and the pump operator is pumping for another either the nozzle will be underpumped and have a poor quality stream, or be overpumped and have greater nozzle reaction. There is some greater versatility because you can dial down to a flow for a brush or nuisance fire and then up for a heavy flow interior fire attack. Available in 75 or 100 psi models.

    Chief Nozzles: Single gallonage/Single pressure nozzles. Designed to flow a set gallonage at a set nozzle pressure. Such as 200 gpm at 75 psi. For best performance the pump operator must pump the proper pressure to make that flow happen. Available in numerous gpms and in 50, 75, and 100 psi models.


    I freely admit my favorite is the Chief nozzle. Simplicity at its best. Few moving parts, designed to be operated with the bale all the way open, nothing to set for flow, just open the bale and away you go. My #1 POC FD uses the Elkhart Chief 75 psi/200 gpm combination nozzle tip hooked to a pistol grip Elkhart shut-off with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We initially underpump the combo tip to around 55 psi to get around 160 gpm, we can of course go to 75 psi and flow 200 gpm, or toss the combo tip altogether and flow around 300 gpm at around 40 psi through the 1 1/4 inch tip. We do use 2 inch hose though so the flows are well with in it's capability.

    My thought on nozzles? Keep the type limited and if possible make them all the same or at least the same type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    We teach the rookies all the way open or all the way closed when fighting fire here. TFT's bale gating operation takes that and throws it out the window.
    Thats like driving with the gas all the way to the floor or all the off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokediver6102 View Post
    Thats like driving with the gas all the way to the floor or all the off.
    Exactly. Attacking a fire in the fully developed stage is like a drag race to get it extinguished. In a drag race you have the pedal all the way on the floor, until the race is over. Once the fire is darkened down gating back is fine.

    It is nothing less than stupid to attack a fire with a partially opened nozzle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    It is nothing less than stupid to attack a fire with a partially opened nozzle.
    Been in many fires that only need a few cracks of the nozzle. I agree that new people should be trained to handle the line fully opened, if they can't then they need to look for a new profession, but there are many situations where a fully opened nozzle does 2+ times damage than the fire has done. This is where the knowledge/experience and the command/control of the company officer comes in but it should also be taught in training. 100% agree that fully involved means fully open but the in between is just as important.
    Last edited by Firemedic 61; 10-30-2011 at 04:25 PM.
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    Yeah if the fire is small sure just crack the nozzle, yeah you can knock down a fully involved room that way. But why mess around with it? Hit it full bore and be done.
    Bring enough hose.

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    You don't need an automatic nozzle to crack the nozzle to extinguish a small fire. It works fine with any type of nozzle.
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