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  1. #21
    Forum Member bcjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Would you require a vest for the pump operator if the road was completely shut down? How about operating in a parking lot on a fire?
    Roadway shut down...Yes. Wearing the vest as a routine practice makes it habit and it becomes second nature to put it on. That reduces the chance of "forgetting" it when on the road.

    Parking lot...Yes. See above.
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  2. #22
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Also, the reflective quality of turnouts is not designed for roadside use. It's designed for fireground operations.
    Almost. Actually, the reflective attributes, qualities, and standards are very much the same. Turnouts fall short in the conspicuity standards.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  3. #23
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    Should have added that when I was assigned to the rescue, I'd just wear NFPA approved coveralls and a hood, helmet and gloves. We had an engine company for suppression if needed, so I didn't get oil, gas and blood on my turnout gear.

    Honestly, I think vests are much ado about nothing. I haven't seen a recent incident in the last 6 months that I've paid attention to, where a vest would've made a difference in a LODD or serious injury. Seems to me that just about every firefighter that's been hit was hit by a drunk drivers that already disregarded lights/cones/reflective striping, or a vehicle that was already out of control that hit them. I want to rely more on a big hunk of something between me and the morons, along with a bit of situational awareness. Short of that, give me a spare guy with a bazooka. Vests are nice when we do fill the boot though.

  4. #24
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Honestly, I think vests are much ado about nothing. I haven't seen a recent incident in the last 6 months that I've paid attention to, where a vest would've made a difference in a LODD or serious injury. Seems to me that just about every firefighter that's been hit was hit by a drunk drivers that already disregarded lights/cones/reflective striping, or a vehicle that was already out of control that hit them. I want to rely more on a big hunk of something between me and the morons, along with a bit of situational awareness. Short of that, give me a spare guy with a bazooka. Vests are nice when we do fill the boot though.
    Doesn't the absence of an incident where a vest was worn maybe indicate they work? How that can be used to prove they don't matter doesn't make sense.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  5. #25
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Doesn't the absence of an incident where a vest was worn maybe indicate they work? How that can be used to prove they don't matter doesn't make sense.
    About as much as the fact we have never had anyone hit...and don't wear vests.

    Really really hard to prove what caused a non-incident.
    Really really hard to prove an action (wearing a vest) would have stopped that incident from happening.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #26
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    About as much as the fact we have never had anyone hit...and don't wear vests.

    Really really hard to prove what caused a non-incident.
    Really really hard to prove an action (wearing a vest) would have stopped that incident from happening.
    That is my point...

    No one ever claimed that wearing a reflective vest makes you bulletproof, just more visible.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #27
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    We go with whatever the scene dictates. Lots of times it's bunker pants, a denim coat, and a ball cap. But, like I said, it's whatever the scene dictates. As for the vests; if my company is on the highway, there will be at least four other companies, the highway is shut down, and will be for quite some time. If I thought it a good idea I'd wear it though.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That is my point...

    No one ever claimed that wearing a reflective vest makes you bulletproof, just more visible.
    Before you see that vest with maybe 1.5 sq. ft. of material, would you not see the big 'ol truck with Chevrons and LED lights so bright they reflect of of street signs in broad daylight? Kinda my point. I think it just looks good on paper but in reality has about zero effect on an emergency scene. Kinda like turning on a keychain fob light, when you already have several quartz floodlights already on. If it makes guys feel safer, fine, I got no problem with guys who like them. I just don't put any faith in them any rely more on blocking vehicles and keeping a watchfull eye.

  9. #29
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Before you see that vest with maybe 1.5 sq. ft. of material, would you not see the big 'ol truck with Chevrons and LED lights so bright they reflect of of street signs in broad daylight?
    Seeing the BRT might prevent a driver from running into the BRT -- it won't necessarily prevent that same driver from running over a far less conspicuous emergency worker. That's why we wear vests.


    I think it just looks good on paper but in reality has about zero effect on an emergency scene.
    Conspicuity research disagrees.

    I just don't put any faith in them any rely more on blocking vehicles and keeping a watchfull eye.
    Blocking vehicles and good situational awareness both help. So does making yourself more conspicuous.

    Seriously, is it all that painful to put on a vest?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  10. #30
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Before you see that vest with maybe 1.5 sq. ft. of material, would you not see the big 'ol truck with Chevrons and LED lights so bright they reflect of of street signs in broad daylight? Kinda my point. I think it just looks good on paper but in reality has about zero effect on an emergency scene. Kinda like turning on a keychain fob light, when you already have several quartz floodlights already on. If it makes guys feel safer, fine, I got no problem with guys who like them. I just don't put any faith in them any rely more on blocking vehicles and keeping a watchfull eye.
    The problem is that folks ONLY see the big old red truck...

    To say that the vest doesn't make you more visible is to ignore common sense and science.

    If we never got off the big ol' red truck, you would have a valid point.

    This reminds me of the arguments against SCBA use and booster lines for structure fires.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Seeing the BRT might prevent a driver from running into the BRT -- it won't necessarily prevent that same driver from running over a far less conspicuous emergency worker. That's why we wear vests.



    Conspicuity research disagrees.



    Blocking vehicles and good situational awareness both help. So does making yourself more conspicuous.

    Seriously, is it all that painful to put on a vest?
    My point is that I want the BRT to be between me and the morons, so they wouldn't see me anyway, at least not until they were passing. Some administrators focus on the vest and not the bigger picture. Maybe if they started yanking drivers licenses and crushing the cars into cubes and sending them to China, just maybe some of these people would get the message about driving safe. I just think it's redundant wearing a vest in a closed area when I have other reflective material on.

  12. #32
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I just think it's redundant wearing a vest in a closed area when I have other reflective material on.
    How closed an area do you have in mind? I've seen drivers go to great lengths to drive around roadblocks and into "closed" areas. Despite our best efforts, there's always at least one idiot out there willing to test your idiot proof scene. The reflective material on bunker gear (if the nature of the incident has you wearing it) is notably less conspicuous than an ANSI traffic vest.

    Ignoring for a moment that we're required to wear them by law anyway, I personally think that the greatly improved conspicuity is well worth the infinitesimal bit of extra effort it takes to put the vest on.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  13. #33
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    My point is that I want the BRT to be between me and the morons, so they wouldn't see me anyway, at least not until they were passing. Some administrators focus on the vest and not the bigger picture. Maybe if they started yanking drivers licenses and crushing the cars into cubes and sending them to China, just maybe some of these people would get the message about driving safe. I just think it's redundant wearing a vest in a closed area when I have other reflective material on.
    Scarecrow, welcome back!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    How closed an area do you have in mind? I've seen drivers go to great lengths to drive around roadblocks and into "closed" areas. Despite our best efforts, there's always at least one idiot out there willing to test your idiot proof scene. The reflective material on bunker gear (if the nature of the incident has you wearing it) is notably less conspicuous than an ANSI traffic vest.

    Ignoring for a moment that we're required to wear them by law anyway, I personally think that the greatly improved conspicuity is well worth the infinitesimal bit of extra effort it takes to put the vest on.
    So what to you propose for the nozzleman and his backup who are NOT required to wear the vest by law? Do we need to have flaggers for them, to guide the morons around them? Even if you have a jumpsuit covered with LED's, some moron would still try to run you over. (BTW, I'm driving the engine today so I have my vest with me, because my sweat shirt isn't reflective.)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Scarecrow, welcome back!
    Okay I guess there's a joke in there somewhere, must've gone over my head.(?)

  16. #36
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    So what to you propose for the nozzleman and his backup who are NOT required to wear the vest by law? Do we need to have flaggers for them, to guide the morons around them?
    Not necessarily flaggers but, in addition to blocking off a buffer zone around them as well as practical, somebody should be watching their backs.

    Even if you have a jumpsuit covered with LED's, some moron would still try to run you over.
    Probably true. But that's no reason not to wear a traffic vest anyway.

    (BTW, I'm driving the engine today so I have my vest with me, because my sweat shirt isn't reflective.)
    Everybody on the engine should have a vest with them regardless of what they happen to be wearing today.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  17. #37
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Still haven't heard any good reason not to wear a vest....
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Still haven't heard any good reason not to wear a vest....
    It also covers my flashlight and radio on my turnout coat. I know, still not good enough for you. I still believe whoever passed the law owns stock in the reflective vest industry.

  19. #39
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    "Not necessarily flaggers but, in addition to blocking off a buffer zone around them as well as practical, somebody should be watching their backs."

    I agree. To me, this is much better protection than a vest.

  20. #40
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I know, still not good enough for you.
    You got it...
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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