1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    About as much as the fact we have never had anyone hit...and don't wear vests.

    Really really hard to prove what caused a non-incident.
    Really really hard to prove an action (wearing a vest) would have stopped that incident from happening.
    That is my point...

    No one ever claimed that wearing a reflective vest makes you bulletproof, just more visible.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    We go with whatever the scene dictates. Lots of times it's bunker pants, a denim coat, and a ball cap. But, like I said, it's whatever the scene dictates. As for the vests; if my company is on the highway, there will be at least four other companies, the highway is shut down, and will be for quite some time. If I thought it a good idea I'd wear it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That is my point...

    No one ever claimed that wearing a reflective vest makes you bulletproof, just more visible.
    Before you see that vest with maybe 1.5 sq. ft. of material, would you not see the big 'ol truck with Chevrons and LED lights so bright they reflect of of street signs in broad daylight? Kinda my point. I think it just looks good on paper but in reality has about zero effect on an emergency scene. Kinda like turning on a keychain fob light, when you already have several quartz floodlights already on. If it makes guys feel safer, fine, I got no problem with guys who like them. I just don't put any faith in them any rely more on blocking vehicles and keeping a watchfull eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Before you see that vest with maybe 1.5 sq. ft. of material, would you not see the big 'ol truck with Chevrons and LED lights so bright they reflect of of street signs in broad daylight?
    Seeing the BRT might prevent a driver from running into the BRT -- it won't necessarily prevent that same driver from running over a far less conspicuous emergency worker. That's why we wear vests.


    I think it just looks good on paper but in reality has about zero effect on an emergency scene.
    Conspicuity research disagrees.

    I just don't put any faith in them any rely more on blocking vehicles and keeping a watchfull eye.
    Blocking vehicles and good situational awareness both help. So does making yourself more conspicuous.

    Seriously, is it all that painful to put on a vest?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Before you see that vest with maybe 1.5 sq. ft. of material, would you not see the big 'ol truck with Chevrons and LED lights so bright they reflect of of street signs in broad daylight? Kinda my point. I think it just looks good on paper but in reality has about zero effect on an emergency scene. Kinda like turning on a keychain fob light, when you already have several quartz floodlights already on. If it makes guys feel safer, fine, I got no problem with guys who like them. I just don't put any faith in them any rely more on blocking vehicles and keeping a watchfull eye.
    The problem is that folks ONLY see the big old red truck...

    To say that the vest doesn't make you more visible is to ignore common sense and science.

    If we never got off the big ol' red truck, you would have a valid point.

    This reminds me of the arguments against SCBA use and booster lines for structure fires.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Seeing the BRT might prevent a driver from running into the BRT -- it won't necessarily prevent that same driver from running over a far less conspicuous emergency worker. That's why we wear vests.



    Conspicuity research disagrees.



    Blocking vehicles and good situational awareness both help. So does making yourself more conspicuous.

    Seriously, is it all that painful to put on a vest?
    My point is that I want the BRT to be between me and the morons, so they wouldn't see me anyway, at least not until they were passing. Some administrators focus on the vest and not the bigger picture. Maybe if they started yanking drivers licenses and crushing the cars into cubes and sending them to China, just maybe some of these people would get the message about driving safe. I just think it's redundant wearing a vest in a closed area when I have other reflective material on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I just think it's redundant wearing a vest in a closed area when I have other reflective material on.
    How closed an area do you have in mind? I've seen drivers go to great lengths to drive around roadblocks and into "closed" areas. Despite our best efforts, there's always at least one idiot out there willing to test your idiot proof scene. The reflective material on bunker gear (if the nature of the incident has you wearing it) is notably less conspicuous than an ANSI traffic vest.

    Ignoring for a moment that we're required to wear them by law anyway, I personally think that the greatly improved conspicuity is well worth the infinitesimal bit of extra effort it takes to put the vest on.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    My point is that I want the BRT to be between me and the morons, so they wouldn't see me anyway, at least not until they were passing. Some administrators focus on the vest and not the bigger picture. Maybe if they started yanking drivers licenses and crushing the cars into cubes and sending them to China, just maybe some of these people would get the message about driving safe. I just think it's redundant wearing a vest in a closed area when I have other reflective material on.
    Scarecrow, welcome back!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    How closed an area do you have in mind? I've seen drivers go to great lengths to drive around roadblocks and into "closed" areas. Despite our best efforts, there's always at least one idiot out there willing to test your idiot proof scene. The reflective material on bunker gear (if the nature of the incident has you wearing it) is notably less conspicuous than an ANSI traffic vest.

    Ignoring for a moment that we're required to wear them by law anyway, I personally think that the greatly improved conspicuity is well worth the infinitesimal bit of extra effort it takes to put the vest on.
    So what to you propose for the nozzleman and his backup who are NOT required to wear the vest by law? Do we need to have flaggers for them, to guide the morons around them? Even if you have a jumpsuit covered with LED's, some moron would still try to run you over. (BTW, I'm driving the engine today so I have my vest with me, because my sweat shirt isn't reflective.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Scarecrow, welcome back!
    Okay I guess there's a joke in there somewhere, must've gone over my head.(?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    So what to you propose for the nozzleman and his backup who are NOT required to wear the vest by law? Do we need to have flaggers for them, to guide the morons around them?
    Not necessarily flaggers but, in addition to blocking off a buffer zone around them as well as practical, somebody should be watching their backs.

    Even if you have a jumpsuit covered with LED's, some moron would still try to run you over.
    Probably true. But that's no reason not to wear a traffic vest anyway.

    (BTW, I'm driving the engine today so I have my vest with me, because my sweat shirt isn't reflective.)
    Everybody on the engine should have a vest with them regardless of what they happen to be wearing today.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Still haven't heard any good reason not to wear a vest....
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Still haven't heard any good reason not to wear a vest....
    It also covers my flashlight and radio on my turnout coat. I know, still not good enough for you. I still believe whoever passed the law owns stock in the reflective vest industry.

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    "Not necessarily flaggers but, in addition to blocking off a buffer zone around them as well as practical, somebody should be watching their backs."

    I agree. To me, this is much better protection than a vest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I know, still not good enough for you.
    You got it...
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    "Not necessarily flaggers but, in addition to blocking off a buffer zone around them as well as practical, somebody should be watching their backs."

    I agree. To me, this is much better protection than a vest.
    And all that and wearing the vest too for everyone who doesn't have a specific reason not to wear one is better protection still.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Call me stupid, but to me, I would like to see Globe, MP, and the others develop the materials in the gear so that they can be ANSI compliant on their own. I don't think that it would be that great of a problem to do so, but I am not a textile engineer. As we are "supposed" to wash our gear any time that it becomes even slightly soiled, it should stay nice and bright.

    Personally, I would still wear the vest so that I could take the coat off when prudent and still be able to be more visible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Call me stupid, but to me, I would like to see Globe, MP, and the others develop the materials in the gear so that they can be ANSI compliant on their own. I don't think that it would be that great of a problem to do so, but I am not a textile engineer. As we are "supposed" to wash our gear any time that it becomes even slightly soiled, it should stay nice and bright.

    Personally, I would still wear the vest so that I could take the coat off when prudent and still be able to be more visible.
    I hear you... In the summer, I always liked the option to not wear my structural coat if working on the roadway and the gear wasn't needed.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I hear you... In the summer, I always liked the option to not wear my structural coat if working on the roadway and the gear wasn't needed.
    I like the option of a lighter extrication type suit, lighter but still protects against flash fires and sharp edges. If they could come out with brighter dyes in the nomex or other fire resistant material, then it would make the vest moot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I like the option of a lighter extrication type suit, lighter but still protects against flash fires and sharp edges. If they could come out with brighter dyes in the nomex or other fire resistant material, then it would make the vest moot.
    Really hate that darn vest, huh?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Really hate that darn vest, huh?
    Yep.

    Another thing I been wondering about is that since it seems any employee that works within 50' of a street or parking lot is wearing one, are people going to become desensitized to seeing them? Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Yep.

    Another thing I been wondering about is that since it seems any employee that works within 50' of a street or parking lot is wearing one, are people going to become desensitized to seeing them? Just a thought.
    You better hope not, or then you will be required to wear the blinking light vest.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Call me stupid, but to me, I would like to see Globe, MP, and the others develop the materials in the gear so that they can be ANSI compliant on their own. I don't think that it would be that great of a problem to do so, but I am not a textile engineer. As we are "supposed" to wash our gear any time that it becomes even slightly soiled, it should stay nice and bright.

    Personally, I would still wear the vest so that I could take the coat off when prudent and still be able to be more visible.
    Where is the money going to come from to pay for the new "High Tech" turnout gear meeting the ANSI requirements??? What is the timeline for making the transition from the old to the new???
    everyonegoeshome.com

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    I am sure that the additional cost will be pushed directly to us that will be purchasing the units as is the case with most unfunded government mandates, but it would be an option as I do not see all departments going with this (if it does ever become available) and going away from tradition.

    I am asking for it to be done and I am in no way in any position to make it happen. Even if my department put its full purchsaing power behind the "movement" to accelerate the process, I doubt the 3 sets of gear a year will prompt much action. It is just something that I would like to see for all safety concerns.

    I like the vests on all incidents, just to have the visibility among myself and the crews is enough reason for me, let alone the public. To me, being able to do a quick visual scan and see where people are and how many I can't see is a great parallel to other accountability practices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You better hope not, or then you will be required to wear the blinking light vest.
    Like this??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTLoR...eature=related

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