Thread: HAV/Humat Valve

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    Question HAV/Humat Valve

    Good day everyone..........I have a question for the group.........I have done a little research on these and am wondering if the engine HAS to pump to another or can it supply itself with the benefits of said device.......reason I ask ahd a fire last night in an area we knew had bad water but it turned out have REALLY bad pressure.........anyone use these routinely ?
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Joshie......

    It all depends on the static (or residual, I cant remember, time for a pump refresher class.....) pressure of the plug. You can have 30psi but have all the volume in the world.....This is a great example of a perfect use for a Humat. We used to go on drills with another company here in our county (squrt1262 knows who ran them, that big oafy looking guy with the goofy moustache that thinks he knows everything about moving water.....) where he would plant me on a hydrant with only about 60 static....But it had all the water you could move through it. One time I remember being on it with our old 1250 Hahn, and was supplying a single 5" that had at least two deluge devices and a few handlines on the other end......I remember moving at least 1500 IIRC and that was with the throttle out to the stops and the intake down to about 5-10.....Oafy looking guy would call back to me on the radio and say "send me more." I would reply "Dont have it." He would reply "Your father would give it to me" and my reply would be "I can't give you what I don't have!!!!"

    Now, if the plug has plenty of juice to go with the volume (assuming you are using 5") and depending on the length of the lay, no you would not need an engine to pump the device. I have laid out 1500' of 5" before on plugs with 125psi and had plenty of water on the other end.
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    let me go on to mention this is no bigger than a 6 inch main (very old) and we had 60 psi at the intake but as soon as we open up a 2 1/2 of course that would drop to damn near zero.......
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Josh - As Randy has indicated, you don't have to put an engine on a Humat valve. If the hydrant is strong enough (pressure and gpm), you're good to go. But by using a Humat (or any of several competitors), you can drop a supply line and get some water flow right away without having to wait for another engine to hook up to it. If and when another engine is able to be used to support the hydrant and boost the supply line pressure, that is done without interrupting the flow from the hydrant.

    As Randy says though, Humats won't make water. If there isn't any there, you aren't getting any. But if there's lots of water there but at low pressure, you can increase the pressure to whatever you want, again, without interruption.

    We keep referring to Humat valves because they are the most common ones in our area. There are others. Now, it just so happens that we have a spare one in our station that could be made available. If you're interested, get ahold of me and we'll talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Now, it just so happens that we have a spare one in our station that could be made available. If you're interested, get ahold of me and we'll talk.
    It's Chiefengineer11's Junkyard Clearance Sale!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1 View Post
    let me go on to mention this is no bigger than a 6 inch main (very old) and we had 60 psi at the intake but as soon as we open up a 2 1/2 of course that would drop to damn near zero.......
    If it dropped to near zero then a Humat, four-way hydrant valve, or whatever you want to call it will most likely not help. Something is wrong if a 6" main with static 60 PSI cannot sustain a 2-1/2. Go to that hydrant and open it up all the way with only the 2-1/2" uncapped and pitot it. Something ain't right.

    If the supply simply is not there, no fancy valve will produce it. The second pumper will only collapse the suction hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Something is wrong if a 6" main with static 60 PSI cannot sustain a 2-1/2. Go to that hydrant and open it up all the way with only the 2-1/2" uncapped and pitot it. Something ain't right.
    I agree. Full of built up corrosion & deposits......Or maybe collapsed somewhere???
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    see that is why you gotta come on here and ask the peoples............now I know.......thanks to you all.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Joshie......

    It all depends on the static (or residual, I cant remember, time for a pump refresher class.....) pressure of the plug. You can have 30psi but have all the volume in the world.....This is a great example of a perfect use for a Humat. We used to go on drills with another company here in our county (squrt1262 knows who ran them, that big oafy looking guy with the goofy moustache that thinks he knows everything about moving water.....) where he would plant me on a hydrant with only about 60 static....But it had all the water you could move through it. One time I remember being on it with our old 1250 Hahn, and was supplying a single 5" that had at least two deluge devices and a few handlines on the other end......I remember moving at least 1500 IIRC and that was with the throttle out to the stops and the intake down to about 5-10.....Oafy looking guy would call back to me on the radio and say "send me more." I would reply "Dont have it." He would reply "Your father would give it to me" and my reply would be "I can't give you what I don't have!!!!"

    Now, if the plug has plenty of juice to go with the volume (assuming you are using 5") and depending on the length of the lay, no you would not need an engine to pump the device. I have laid out 1500' of 5" before on plugs with 125psi and had plenty of water on the other end.
    Exact situation which caused my previous VFD to start using 4 way valves 15 -20 years ago. Our system gave us very good volume but very low pressures.

    As a rule, we would pump the hydrant with the 2nd or 3rd due engine. However if it was a very short lay or the situation turned out to be less than expected and the flows without the pump at the hydrant was adequate for the incident, we would often not commit a pumper to the hydrant so that we could keep it available for another run or another assignment.

    My current VFD has a 4-way valve that we purchased for a couple of fairly specific commercial and public assembly situations. We have a very limited area which is served by hydrants in the village. More often than not, if we get a fire in this area we will use a 3" supply line or simply work off out 10,000g of on-board water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    More often than not, if we get a fire in this area we will use a 3" supply line or simply work off out 10,000g of on-board water.
    You need a lot more then that for surround-and-drowns......But then again how much water can you dump into a trailer?
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    'Bout a Thousand/ IF you do it RIGHT, hehe T.C,

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    You need a lot more then that for surround-and-drowns......But then again how much water can you dump into a trailer?
    Your humor never disappoints.

    Actually they are older smallish homes generally less than 1500-1700sf, or in a couple of cases, remodeled shotgun homes at about 1300sf.

    10,000g works well though as it makes a nice river in the street, and that's not even counting the mutual aid apparatus we'll bring in for manpower.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-15-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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    Verify the curb valve for the hydrant in the street is open. Check with water company. Had this issue here, valve was almost all the way closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Your humor never disappoints.

    Actually they are older smallish homes generally less than 1500-1700sf, or in a couple of cases, remodeled shotgun homes at about 1300sf.

    10,000g works well though as it makes a nice river in the street, and that's not even counting the mutual aid apparatus we'll bring in for manpower.
    Try a Smooth bore. See above. Sooner you put it out,sooner you go home. T.c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Your humor never disappoints.

    Actually they are older smallish homes generally less than 1500-1700sf, or in a couple of cases, remodeled shotgun homes at about 1300sf.

    10,000g works well though as it makes a nice river in the street, and that's not even counting the mutual aid apparatus we'll bring in for manpower.
    The sad thing is that you think it's humor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Try a Smooth bore. See above. Sooner you put it out,sooner you go home. T.c.
    Prefers fog. Works just as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    The sad thing is that you think it's humor.
    No. The sad part is you can't have a normal conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No. The sad part is you can't have a normal conversation.
    I have had plenty of normal conversations with many of the members here in the engineering forums- including in real life over dinner or a few drinks at various shows. Some in here have even broken bread at my dinner table with my family. One of the active members in here even raised me. One thing he was very successful at was teaching me the love of the fire service, it's sacred traditions, the nobility of the occupation and the lives of others above all else. This same man has been at pump panels pumping water to the very lines that I have pulled into the depths of hell, the sights of which would have made you curl up into a fetal position and suck your thumb while you mumble incoherently. The same man that would disown me if I ever stooped down to your level and dared to use the "safety" excuse.

    One thing he was NOT successful at was teaching me humility and biting my tounge- He never could stop me from verbalizing my hatred of others stupidity. That being said, I have neither the time nor the inclination to converse normally with a spineless coward who uses the excuse of "safety" to disguise their cowardice.

    In your case, I think he would make an exception about teaching me to bite my tounge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Prefers fog. Works just as well.
    NOT if you work with much fire. Fog is OK for LP tanks. T.c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NOT if you work with much fire. Fog is OK for LP tanks. T.c.
    Again, that is your choice.

    I have worked with fog nozzles far more than solid stream, and I feel very comfortable with working with them in just about any residental situation, which has been easily 95% of the fires I have worked.

    Do solid stream have their place? Sure. Commercial fires, warehouse and other large open area fires and some other situations. I have used them in those situations and the reach and penetration is nice. But for the bulk of the operations I have been involved in, I prefer fog.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, that is your choice.

    I have worked with fog nozzles far more than solid stream, and I feel very comfortable with working with them in just about any residental situation, which has been easily 95% of the fires I have worked.

    Do solid stream have their place? Sure. Commercial fires, warehouse and other large open area fires and some other situations. I have used them in those situations and the reach and penetration is nice. But for the bulk of the operations I have been involved in, I prefer fog.
    Used combos for YEARS,QUITE familiar with them.100psi at the nozzle to make them work RIGHT. SB,50 psi at the nozzle and MORE water delivered. Since I stayed at the Holiday Inn last night that would make it a NO Brainer on making life easier for my crews. Less reaction,easier maneuvering,and more water. WHY wouldn't this be better? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Used combos for YEARS,QUITE familiar with them.100psi at the nozzle to make them work RIGHT. SB,50 psi at the nozzle and MORE water delivered. Since I stayed at the Holiday Inn last night that would make it a NO Brainer on making life easier for my crews. Less reaction,easier maneuvering,and more water. WHY wouldn't this be better? T.C.
    I certainly agree that less reaction and lower pressures is much easier for the crews. No disagreement there.

    I just find that I have more options with a combo nozzle. Again, it's just my preference and a lot of that preference is likely based on the frequency of use.
    Given the choice, I would prefer a fog nozzle for 95% of the structural incidents we respond to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I certainly agree that less reaction and lower pressures is much easier for the crews. No disagreement there.

    I just find that I have more options with a combo nozzle. Again, it's just my preference and a lot of that preference is likely based on the frequency of use.
    Given the choice, I would prefer a fog nozzle for 95% of the structural incidents we respond to.
    I've still got both but the changeover is well underway to go with SB's. I find the reach and hard hit of the SB along with easier handling FAR outweigh the chicken(or boiled alive)factor of the Combination. We have a couple Vindicators too, a hard hitting nozzle that knocks fire down Quick. Like I said, the Combi's are mainly used on propane tanks,with very little Interior done with them.Not real sure of the "options" you speak of. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I've still got both but the changeover is well underway to go with SB's. I find the reach and hard hit of the SB along with easier handling FAR outweigh the chicken(or boiled alive)factor of the Combination. We have a couple Vindicators too, a hard hitting nozzle that knocks fire down Quick. Like I said, the Combi's are mainly used on propane tanks,with very little Interior done with them.Not real sure of the "options" you speak of. T.C.
    Depends on the region.

    You see very little SB in this half of the state including the full-time career departments, Simply not used. Area has been raised on fog and works on fog.

    If you look at our structure fires v. other fires that fog works better on - brush, vehicle, well and battery tank - vast majority of the time the preconnects are pulled it's not for structure fires. I agree with my command staff that fogs are far better for residential fires. We can go 2-3 years without any type of a commercial fire where the SBs are more relevenat.

    Again, fogs work far better for us.
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    Have another question regarding the Hydrant Assist Valves... I've looked at a few of them and my department is considering getting at least one. The thing is, We are in the process of installing permanent hydrant Storz adapters on all of our hydrants... All of the HAV's I've looked at are made for the threaded steamer connections... Can they be used with the Storz adapters on the hydrant?

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