1. #1
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    Default Monitor Nozzle Choice?

    I opened a can of worms recently at our dept. The old school guys insist on leaving the adjustable fog nozzle on our monitor. I suggested taking of the fog nozzle and putting the stack tips on instead. My thoughts were that we use the monitor for large structure fires and blitz attacks and the larger droplet size from the smooth bore along with more reach and penetration would do a better job for us.

    So, what does everyone else run with and why?

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    we run with a set of stacked tips on our deck gun. If we are using it we are going against a large fire, so we want the large intact stream from a smoothbore. We do have a fog nozzle for it, but it spends most of its life in the compartment.

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    I agree on the stacked tip nozzle as well. In that application, you get more bang for your buck with a smooth bore nozzle. The reach and penetration would be much more useful in that application. We have portable monitors that we keep with fog nozzles on them sunce they are often deployed in apllications where the reach is not as critical, such as protecting exposures.

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    Stacked tips as well and the fog nozzle is stored in the compartment next to the monitor base.

    On our stacked tips, I want to say we've got the tips removed down to either 1.75 or 2 inch opening. Big gun, big water theory.

    On our aerial, an Akron Sabermaster for the monitor nozzle. The smoothbore is a 2 inch. We wanted the solid bore for most situations but have that fog capability when it may arise.

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    Stacked tips. Fog tip is mounted in dunnage area next to wagon pipe. I always found the quality of a smooth bore stream with the extended length stream straightener to be incredibly impressive next to the straight stream of a fog tip. At the end of the day, though its still a preference I guess.

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    Fog nozzle.

    The majority of the time we use the deck gun for an initial attack on large brush fires when we have a minimum manpower and for tank/exposure cooling operations at gas well, battery tank or refinery incidents. We find that the fog nozzle is much better in those applications than a smooth bore.

    We rarely use the master stream on structure fires as, quite frankly, we rarely have structure fires that require that type of flow.
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    Stacked, but we've swapped to fog for a store front blitz attack when appropriate ventilation is in place, but that's incredibly rare.

    Funny, the votes in this thread are unanimous. Good job in pressing an issue, some are content with their departments dangerous ways. Stay on them brother, persistence and knowledge is king.
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    Stacked tips, all except the newest engines that came with remote control deck guns that you can't swap tips on. Hopefully we won't make that mistake again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Stacked tips, all except the newest engines that came with remote control deck guns that you can't swap tips on. Hopefully we won't make that mistake again.
    I know what you mean, they are doing the exact same thing with the ladder pipes.

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    Red face

    We use stacked tips on our deck guns as well as our portable deluges. We do have 2 fog nozzles, one automatic that flows to 1000gpm, and one low pressure that flow to 500gpm for our Elkhart RAM. The Elkhart RAM normally has a 1 3/8 inch tip on it. The only reason we even have the automatic fog tip is it came on the deck gun on our new engine.

    A little story for you fog nozzle guys. Shortly after we got our 2000gpm pumper with the 1000 gallon booster tank we had a fire at a building under demolition. The building was about 2/3 down and burning like crazy throwing large embers all over the neighborhood. We pulled up roughly 75 feet away and tried to blitz it with the deck gun while a suply line was laid by the second engine. With the nozzle on straight stream we were unable to hit the fire. The stream would go about half way to the fire and make an abrupt almost 90 degree turn to the right. The wind was strong enough that it was deflecting the stream. We swiped the stacked tips off the other engine and were able to hit and kill the main body of the fire within seconds. The smoothbore stream was able to stay together through the wind and hit the fire.

    The fog nozzle has its place, exposure protection, knocking down and diluting chemical gas clouds, and mass decontamination. But in my humble opinion it is NOT the best choice for heavy fire attack.
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    What puts out fires?

    Absorption of BTU's.

    What is the most efficient method of absorbing BTU's?

    Rapid application of mass amounts of GPM.

    Translation: the fog nozzle takes up space in the back of the compartment.
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    From an old school guy, I will offer a contrarian view. We keep the stacked tips in our compartment. We keep the 2000 gpm automatic master stream nozzle on the gun. Now before you jump all over me about little droplets of water, steam conversion, penetration or that garbage, we found that with the stacked tips on the rig, when we did have to pump a big fire, it was rare that anything but the smallest tip ever got used. Ya sure, a great looking high velocity stream, but we horribly restricted our flow. All too often, we saw only about 1000 gpm through our 2" tip. Sorry, just not enough. We needed the ability of a nozzle in an unmanned remote control capacity to give me a great stream if I am pumping it 500, 1000 or 2250 gpm. With fire flows and supply capabilities all over the place, changing tips to get maximum flow and reach just isn't getting it done during the incident. The other interesting thing we found was that 1500 gpm from a stacked tip being pumped at 85 psi base nozzle pressure, and 1500 gpm from an automatic nozzle operating at 85 psibase nozzle pressure had similar reach and penetration results. Amazing, same mass (gpm) and same velocity (psi) getting similar results...Mother Nature doesn't lie. So for us who truly understand the performance of automatic combination nozzles, the smooth bore has been relegated to the compartment behind the rehab equipment.

    I also just read a great article in the recent Fire Apparatus magazine that conveys exactly this same thought on a comparison of impact of different nozzles. Geeze guys, get with the 21st century at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Stacked, but we've swapped to fog for a store front blitz attack when appropriate ventilation is in place, but that's incredibly rare.

    Funny, the votes in this thread are unanimous. Good job in pressing an issue, some are content with their departments dangerous ways. Stay on them brother, persistence and knowledge is king.
    So what's dangerous about using on fog nozzle on the deck gun if we are using it for brush fire knockdown and exposure protection on battery tanks and cooling the framework at refianry fires?

    The fact is the pattern put out by a fog nozzle is the ideal pattern for these applications.

    As a rule, we will keep the fog tip on for structural applications at both my combo and volunteer departments but we do also have stacked tips for each moniter if command chooses to use them in a srtructural situation, however, those situations are very rare in our area and far less common than the applications described above.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-17-2011 at 04:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenFireFan View Post
    From an old school guy, I will offer a contrarian view. We keep the stacked tips in our compartment. We keep the 2000 gpm automatic master stream nozzle on the gun. Now before you jump all over me about little droplets of water, steam conversion, penetration or that garbage, we found that with the stacked tips on the rig, when we did have to pump a big fire, it was rare that anything but the smallest tip ever got used. Ya sure, a great looking high velocity stream, but we horribly restricted our flow. All too often, we saw only about 1000 gpm through our 2" tip. Sorry, just not enough. We needed the ability of a nozzle in an unmanned remote control capacity to give me a great stream if I am pumping it 500, 1000 or 2250 gpm. With fire flows and supply capabilities all over the place, changing tips to get maximum flow and reach just isn't getting it done during the incident. The other interesting thing we found was that 1500 gpm from a stacked tip being pumped at 85 psi base nozzle pressure, and 1500 gpm from an automatic nozzle operating at 85 psibase nozzle pressure had similar reach and penetration results. Amazing, same mass (gpm) and same velocity (psi) getting similar results...Mother Nature doesn't lie. So for us who truly understand the performance of automatic combination nozzles, the smooth bore has been relegated to the compartment behind the rehab equipment.

    I also just read a great article in the recent Fire Apparatus magazine that conveys exactly this same thought on a comparison of impact of different nozzles. Geeze guys, get with the 21st century at least.
    If you read the same article I did they author was conveying the exact opposite of what you are. They replaced all of their automatics with low pressure, fixed gallonage fogs and smooth bores.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what's dangerous about using on fog nozzle on the deck gun if we are using it for brush fire knockdown and exposure protection on battery tanks and cooling the framework at refianry fires?

    The fact is the pattern put out by a fog nozzle is the ideal pattern for these applications.

    As a rule, we will keep the fog tip on for structural applications at both my combo and volunteer departments but we do also have stacked tips for each moniter if command chooses to use them in a srtructural situation, however, those situations are very rare in our area and far less common than the applications described above.
    Why are you starting an argument? I truly couldn't care any less what you or your department does on tactics. Go away.
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    is there a link to this article?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    is there a link to this article?
    This is the one I was referencing: http://www.fireapparatusmagazine.com...perations.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenFireFan View Post
    From an old school guy, I will offer a contrarian view. We keep the stacked tips in our compartment. We keep the 2000 gpm automatic master stream nozzle on the gun. Now before you jump all over me about little droplets of water, steam conversion, penetration or that garbage, we found that with the stacked tips on the rig, when we did have to pump a big fire, it was rare that anything but the smallest tip ever got used. Ya sure, a great looking high velocity stream, but we horribly restricted our flow. All too often, we saw only about 1000 gpm through our 2" tip. Sorry, just not enough. We needed the ability of a nozzle in an unmanned remote control capacity to give me a great stream if I am pumping it 500, 1000 or 2250 gpm. With fire flows and supply capabilities all over the place, changing tips to get maximum flow and reach just isn't getting it done during the incident. The other interesting thing we found was that 1500 gpm from a stacked tip being pumped at 85 psi base nozzle pressure, and 1500 gpm from an automatic nozzle operating at 85 psibase nozzle pressure had similar reach and penetration results. Amazing, same mass (gpm) and same velocity (psi) getting similar results...Mother Nature doesn't lie. So for us who truly understand the performance of automatic combination nozzles, the smooth bore has been relegated to the compartment behind the rehab equipment.

    I also just read a great article in the recent Fire Apparatus magazine that conveys exactly this same thought on a comparison of impact of different nozzles. Geeze guys, get with the 21st century at least.
    Frankly, your excuse for not using smoothbores is one of laziness and poor training. Nothing more, nothing less. If my fellow firefighters on my little POC FD's can switch the tips, I should think your guys could too. If you need 2000gpm you could go to a 2 3/4 inch smoothbore tip and flow 2010 at 80 psi NP. Is you deck gun actually rated to flow 2000gpm?

    If your idea of the 21st century is the laziness of using an automatic combination nozzle on a deck gun, because your guys won't change the tip, I want no part of it.

    This thought occurred to me this morning...Why not just leave the biggest smoothbore tip you have on the gun all the time? That way if you felt you didn't need 2010 gallons a minute with the 2 3/4 inch tip you could always put whatever smaller sized tip on to allow you to flow less.

    Also, what is the brand and model of this deck gun you have that will flow 2000 gpm? Because it certainly is not the standard deck gun found on most engines.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-18-2011 at 10:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenFireFan View Post
    The other interesting thing we found was that 1500 gpm from a stacked tip being pumped at 85 psi base nozzle pressure, and 1500 gpm from an automatic nozzle operating at 85 psibase nozzle pressure had similar reach and penetration results. Amazing, same mass (gpm) and same velocity (psi) getting similar results...Mother Nature doesn't lie. So for us who truly understand the performance of automatic combination nozzles, the smooth bore has been relegated to the compartment behind the rehab equipment.

    I also just read a great article in the recent Fire Apparatus magazine that conveys exactly this same thought on a comparison of impact of different nozzles. Geeze guys, get with the 21st century at least.
    This is great in the back parking lot, sure you can match SB vs. fog and get very similar results, but when you add a large volume of fire you introduce another factor. Heat.

    The heat is constantly chewing through the fog stream as they have far more surface area and smaller droplets to convert to steam and carry away. As was noted in another thread on the topic, look at any pictures of a defensive operation where both types of streams are being employed, you notice the fog often is making a hard right or left turn before it even reached the fire, the smoothbore is far less effected by the heat and wind. Larger droplets carry straighter further, than the millions of smaller water particles. Interior work does not have he same stream lengths, heat or the open sky to allow the steam to be carried away, thus the arguments for interior handlines vs. exterior master streams application do not coincide as neatly.

    I will say one reason I've seen attributed to fog guns on master streams is exposure protection of tightly packed buildings. The smoothbore may peel away siding whereas you can readily adjust the fog to have "less punch". If you had to switch nozzles, it would appear that going to a defensive deep boring stream allows for more time than arriving and employing an exposure stream. Not how we operate, but one argument I've seen from somewhere well respected as an aggressive urban FD.

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    We run with a Williams Fire and Hazard foam educting Scout (up to 750)and compartmented stacked tips on one engine and a larger foam educting 1500 gpm (lightening?) with a foam educting 1000 gpm ground monitor (lightning?) on the other.

    We have an Alcohol processing plant in our jurisdiction. Foam by the tote. We've had decent luck with the foam educting nozzles. (Accuracy and foam)

    We've used straight bores when needed. (Reach and punch)

    It depends on the situation.

    (program note: The guy that builds the Williams Fire nozzles is on our department. At times we are guinea pigs. It's a good thing.)

    We just have not had enough BIG ONES to really come to a diffinitive opinion.
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    Post deleted. Re-thought.
    Last edited by DFDMAXX; 08-18-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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