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Thread: Smooth Bore vs. Combo/Fog nozzles. Pros & Cons?

  1. #41
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    It's amazing because you speak much better than 90% of Americans.
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    Forum Member Theusje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    It's amazing because you speak much better than 90% of Americans.
    Well, I put some effort in it. If I don't know the spelling of a word than I google it. I also think twice when using than, then, they're, there, their, ...

    Also this is typing/writing. I have the time to think how I'll phrase a sentence.

    I think of this place as a source of knowlegde. I mean, this ain't Youtube or the comment section of the local newspaper. I gain nothing from bad writing or waging flame wars.

    Edit: Btw I really like your signature. It might get the guys thinking.
    Last edited by Theusje; 08-28-2011 at 03:46 PM.

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    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    I think the first clue that you're foreign is that you're nice. You're too nice to be American.
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    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I think the first clue that you're foreign is that you're nice. You're too nice to be American.
    I guess after 14 different foreign countries and 3 conflicts, I would disagree with that blanket statement.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Forum Member Theusje's Avatar
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    That's something Belgian.

    I'll try to explain with these vidoes
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceg6NQKHd70

    and this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnqkPjoqrUY

    We've done some great things but we are not really proud of it and we don't really care.

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    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I guess after 14 different foreign countries and 3 conflicts, I would disagree with that blanket statement.
    Jokes brother, jokes....
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Forum Member Miller337's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I think the first clue that you're foreign is that you're nice. You're too nice to be American.
    Gosh, thanks big guy. I think you are lonely and sad dude so I've p.m.ed Lose AllFIRESto come cheer you up. See this American boy is nice to you.

  8. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Cool story.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miller337 View Post
    Gosh, thanks big guy. I think you are lonely and sad dude so I've p.m.ed Lose AllFIRESto come cheer you up. See this American boy is nice to you.
    So this is what it's like to be drunk on a Sunday...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    Yes, but won't a smoothbore invert the thermal layer and cause steam if you flow too much water at once?

    You are right about checking the nozzle setting, our sm30s move really easy.
    I didn't see this get answered, so I'll offer a short one: No, is the answer to the above question. Or, maybe but highly unlikely. "Too much water at once" puts the fire out quicker or overcomes the BTU's decreasing steam production. In the case of fog, when you put "too much water" into the overhead, the conversion to steam forces the same down along with the smoke. With the larger droplets produced by a smoothbore nozzle, the water rains down with less steam production overhead. The larger droplets can absorb more heat before converting to steam and rising up.

    While you may never have operated a SB inside a structure, we typically can show similar results in live fire training using a combo nozzle, once on straight stream with limited steam production (still more than a SB) and then on the old time favorite 30 degree fog pattern. It tends to be very convincing in my experience. The SB is actually not much fun, as the fires go out with little fanfare, which is actually how we'd like them to go in the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I didn't see this get answered, so I'll offer a short one: No, is the answer to the above question. Or, maybe but highly unlikely. "Too much water at once" puts the fire out quicker or overcomes the BTU's decreasing steam production. In the case of fog, when you put "too much water" into the overhead, the conversion to steam forces the same down along with the smoke. With the larger droplets produced by a smoothbore nozzle, the water rains down with less steam production overhead. The larger droplets can absorb more heat before converting to steam and rising up.

    While you may never have operated a SB inside a structure, we typically can show similar results in live fire training using a combo nozzle, once on straight stream with limited steam production (still more than a SB) and then on the old time favorite 30 degree fog pattern. It tends to be very convincing in my experience. The SB is actually not much fun, as the fires go out with little fanfare, which is actually how we'd like them to go in the field.
    Actually, I did answer it back in post 16. You did elaborate a little more than I did though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually, I did answer it back in post 16. You did elaborate a little more than I did though.
    I guess I missed that, found it now, I like yours, much more succinct.

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    Look at this month's article in Fire Chief on smoothbore v. combo/fog.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    "well it aint all the way out but it got it damned near enough to go in there>"

    Classic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    "Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a ****?"

    Just give me water.

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    Theusje: Sorry about not replying promptly to your post.
    I agree that your pump operators are under pumping at 4 to 6 bar. Your description includes the term “Water Thief” that in the states describes an appliance with one inlet (female) and three gated outlets (male) two 1 ½” and one 2 ½”.
    Assuming you are talking about the same device, the proper pump pressures for a 120 ft. leader of 70mm line into the thief and then 120 ft. attack lines coming out of the thief as follows:

    One 1 ¾” line with a 475 lpm nozzle needs a pump pressure of 115 psi (7.8 bar).
    Placing the second 1 ¾” line in service (250 gpm total) needs about 128 psi (8.75 bar)

    Assuming that you will then attach 120 ft. of 70 mm hose with a larger nozzle and double the application rate (500 + gpm), the pump pressure should be raised to nearly 11 bar (160 psi) This would compare favorably to a 2 ½” smooth bore of 1” diameter or 2.5 cm. (280 gpm)

    Expect to need 3 firefighters to handle this at a reaction force of 130 pounds. It would have a good reach of about 88 ft before it began to separate and be susceptible to winds or fire drafts.

    Kuh Shise

  18. #58
    Forum Member Theusje's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply Kuh Shise.

    When using a waterthief we rarely attach more then two 1 ¾” lines onto it, atleast for interior fire fighting. Most of the times one line is enough, but it's good to know that addding that second line doesn't raise the pump pressure too much.

    We have another setup we use in high rises (10 floors max):

    180 feet of 2 ¾” hose and 240 feet of 1 ¾” hose

    We should be able to reach the 4th or 5th with the 2 ¾” hose, then place a waterthief and start using the 1 ¾” hose. To do this we have hose 2 ¾” hose folded in the engine in a kind of hosebed and folded into cassettes. The 1 ¾” hose is folded into cassettes and in bundles.

    The next video shows an example, I'm sorry for the music used:



    Theusje

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    Default Smooth Bore nozzle use

    This is a real old thread, but I thought I would bring it back to life. There are a number of new comers that haven't seen these type of nozzles put to use.

    Back a number of years ago, I was a volunteer member of a full time department. We were having a number of structure fires that were taking too long to put out. I arrived at one 2 story structure that was really roaring. The engine had already set up the deck gun with a combo nozzle and was putting it into the right front window on the first story. It wasn't having much effect.

    Several other members showed up and we pulled off a 1.75 hand line and I put a straight tip on the hose. Turned on the flow and shot the water into the left front window. The room went dark in about 30 seconds. Moved over to the right front window and did our thing again even with the deck gun still flowing water into the same window. Again the room went dark in about 30 seconds.

    The junior members just stood there in amazement. How come a hand line can do a better job than a large deck gun putting out the fire was their question. Even the fire chief had to see it to believe it. He was watching from the front corner of the property as this was taking place.

    We had a meeting with the members that were at the structure fire the following evening. The chief started asking how many had seen the difference that the hand line with the straight tip nozzle had on the heavy volume fire.

    To make a long story short, the chief changed the way the department was attacking heavy volume fires from that time forward. We always had one handline on the crosslay with a straight tip nozzle from that time. The department trained to pull the straight tip nozzles on any heavy working fire.

    After a while the state fire marshal started asking how we were able to stop a number of the fires that he was investigating. We told him we went back to the old days when they didn't have all these fancy combo nozzles. We were using the straight tip nozzles on the heavy fires we encountered. He was impressed and started talking with other departments he covered and asked them their tactics on fighting heavy involvement. If we were able to knock down fires so fast and used much less water, then maybe there just was something to the smooth bore nozzles.

    You might just want to look into going back to the way out grandfathers did things. They didn't have access to the fancy combo nozzles. All they had was smooth bore back then. You might even find it does make a difference in how fast you can knock down a heavy seated fire.

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    I'm confused. Was the deck gun in a fog position?

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