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Thread: Smooth Bore vs. Combo/Fog nozzles. Pros & Cons?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I didn't see this get answered, so I'll offer a short one: No, is the answer to the above question. Or, maybe but highly unlikely. "Too much water at once" puts the fire out quicker or overcomes the BTU's decreasing steam production. In the case of fog, when you put "too much water" into the overhead, the conversion to steam forces the same down along with the smoke. With the larger droplets produced by a smoothbore nozzle, the water rains down with less steam production overhead. The larger droplets can absorb more heat before converting to steam and rising up.

    While you may never have operated a SB inside a structure, we typically can show similar results in live fire training using a combo nozzle, once on straight stream with limited steam production (still more than a SB) and then on the old time favorite 30 degree fog pattern. It tends to be very convincing in my experience. The SB is actually not much fun, as the fires go out with little fanfare, which is actually how we'd like them to go in the field.
    Actually, I did answer it back in post 16. You did elaborate a little more than I did though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually, I did answer it back in post 16. You did elaborate a little more than I did though.
    I guess I missed that, found it now, I like yours, much more succinct.

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    Look at this month's article in Fire Chief on smoothbore v. combo/fog.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    "well it aint all the way out but it got it damned near enough to go in there>"

    Classic.
    Career Firefighter
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    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    "Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a ****?"

    Just give me water.

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    Theusje: Sorry about not replying promptly to your post.
    I agree that your pump operators are under pumping at 4 to 6 bar. Your description includes the term “Water Thief” that in the states describes an appliance with one inlet (female) and three gated outlets (male) two 1 ½” and one 2 ½”.
    Assuming you are talking about the same device, the proper pump pressures for a 120 ft. leader of 70mm line into the thief and then 120 ft. attack lines coming out of the thief as follows:

    One 1 ¾” line with a 475 lpm nozzle needs a pump pressure of 115 psi (7.8 bar).
    Placing the second 1 ¾” line in service (250 gpm total) needs about 128 psi (8.75 bar)

    Assuming that you will then attach 120 ft. of 70 mm hose with a larger nozzle and double the application rate (500 + gpm), the pump pressure should be raised to nearly 11 bar (160 psi) This would compare favorably to a 2 ½” smooth bore of 1” diameter or 2.5 cm. (280 gpm)

    Expect to need 3 firefighters to handle this at a reaction force of 130 pounds. It would have a good reach of about 88 ft before it began to separate and be susceptible to winds or fire drafts.

    Kuh Shise

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    Thanks for the reply Kuh Shise.

    When using a waterthief we rarely attach more then two 1 ¾” lines onto it, atleast for interior fire fighting. Most of the times one line is enough, but it's good to know that addding that second line doesn't raise the pump pressure too much.

    We have another setup we use in high rises (10 floors max):

    180 feet of 2 ¾” hose and 240 feet of 1 ¾” hose

    We should be able to reach the 4th or 5th with the 2 ¾” hose, then place a waterthief and start using the 1 ¾” hose. To do this we have hose 2 ¾” hose folded in the engine in a kind of hosebed and folded into cassettes. The 1 ¾” hose is folded into cassettes and in bundles.

    The next video shows an example, I'm sorry for the music used:



    Theusje

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    Default Smooth Bore nozzle use

    This is a real old thread, but I thought I would bring it back to life. There are a number of new comers that haven't seen these type of nozzles put to use.

    Back a number of years ago, I was a volunteer member of a full time department. We were having a number of structure fires that were taking too long to put out. I arrived at one 2 story structure that was really roaring. The engine had already set up the deck gun with a combo nozzle and was putting it into the right front window on the first story. It wasn't having much effect.

    Several other members showed up and we pulled off a 1.75 hand line and I put a straight tip on the hose. Turned on the flow and shot the water into the left front window. The room went dark in about 30 seconds. Moved over to the right front window and did our thing again even with the deck gun still flowing water into the same window. Again the room went dark in about 30 seconds.

    The junior members just stood there in amazement. How come a hand line can do a better job than a large deck gun putting out the fire was their question. Even the fire chief had to see it to believe it. He was watching from the front corner of the property as this was taking place.

    We had a meeting with the members that were at the structure fire the following evening. The chief started asking how many had seen the difference that the hand line with the straight tip nozzle had on the heavy volume fire.

    To make a long story short, the chief changed the way the department was attacking heavy volume fires from that time forward. We always had one handline on the crosslay with a straight tip nozzle from that time. The department trained to pull the straight tip nozzles on any heavy working fire.

    After a while the state fire marshal started asking how we were able to stop a number of the fires that he was investigating. We told him we went back to the old days when they didn't have all these fancy combo nozzles. We were using the straight tip nozzles on the heavy fires we encountered. He was impressed and started talking with other departments he covered and asked them their tactics on fighting heavy involvement. If we were able to knock down fires so fast and used much less water, then maybe there just was something to the smooth bore nozzles.

    You might just want to look into going back to the way out grandfathers did things. They didn't have access to the fancy combo nozzles. All they had was smooth bore back then. You might even find it does make a difference in how fast you can knock down a heavy seated fire.

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    I'm confused. Was the deck gun in a fog position?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim202 View Post
    This is a real old thread, but I thought I would bring it back to life. There are a number of new comers that haven't seen these type of nozzles put to use.

    Back a number of years ago, I was a volunteer member of a full time department. We were having a number of structure fires that were taking too long to put out. I arrived at one 2 story structure that was really roaring. The engine had already set up the deck gun with a combo nozzle and was putting it into the right front window on the first story. It wasn't having much effect.

    Several other members showed up and we pulled off a 1.75 hand line and I put a straight tip on the hose. Turned on the flow and shot the water into the left front window. The room went dark in about 30 seconds. Moved over to the right front window and did our thing again even with the deck gun still flowing water into the same window. Again the room went dark in about 30 seconds.

    The junior members just stood there in amazement. How come a hand line can do a better job than a large deck gun putting out the fire was their question. Even the fire chief had to see it to believe it. He was watching from the front corner of the property as this was taking place.

    We had a meeting with the members that were at the structure fire the following evening. The chief started asking how many had seen the difference that the hand line with the straight tip nozzle had on the heavy volume fire.

    To make a long story short, the chief changed the way the department was attacking heavy volume fires from that time forward. We always had one handline on the crosslay with a straight tip nozzle from that time. The department trained to pull the straight tip nozzles on any heavy working fire.

    After a while the state fire marshal started asking how we were able to stop a number of the fires that he was investigating. We told him we went back to the old days when they didn't have all these fancy combo nozzles. We were using the straight tip nozzles on the heavy fires we encountered. He was impressed and started talking with other departments he covered and asked them their tactics on fighting heavy involvement. If we were able to knock down fires so fast and used much less water, then maybe there just was something to the smooth bore nozzles.

    You might just want to look into going back to the way out grandfathers did things. They didn't have access to the fancy combo nozzles. All they had was smooth bore back then. You might even find it does make a difference in how fast you can knock down a heavy seated fire.
    I am a fan of smooth bore nozzles. In fact every line on my #1 POC FD has a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. BUT, I don't believe that the tip was the entire answer here. It was flow rate and actually hitting the fire. Sure the deluge gun flows a ton of water but if it never hits the fire what difference does it make.

    The facts are 200 gpm in a straight stream from my low pressure combo nozzle will extinguish the same amount of fire as a 200 gpm stream from a smooth bore tip. Well, assuming of course both hit the fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I'm confused. Was the deck gun in a fog position?
    Cap, let me tell you a little story. My #1 POC FD pulled up to an old feed mill under demolition. The crew assured me they would tear down the building and burn it on site in small controlled piles. Well, they lied and after a couple of days just torched the remainder of the building. As we arrived on scene, onboard our 2000 gpm engine, the sky was raining huge shingle sized chunks of flaming debris over the neighborhood. I ordered my driver to pull up next to the building, about 75 feet out and pump the deck gun to 130 pounds. I climbed up as the rest of the crew were establishing water supply and my driver opened up the deck gun discharge. I couldn't hit the fire. the wind was taking my straight stream from our automatic nozzle and bending it almost 90 degrees at about 30 feet from the rig. We upped the pressure to 150 and still nothing. I had him shut it down and went an swiped the stacked tip nozzle from the other engine, put the 1 1/2 inch tip on fired the gun back up at 100 psi EP and proceeded to kill the fire.

    Conclusion? The solid stream held together enough to resist the wind, the straight stream from the automatic nozzle being hollow couldn't do it. All of our master streams now carry stacked tip nozzles.
    RFDACM02 likes this.
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    I suspect jim202's deck gun was not being used to it's greatest ability. The high nozzle position may have dictated an angle for the stream that just did not allow it to do the job. But the handline being operated from the ground and up close allowed the stream to hit the ceiling of fire room(s), allowing fire to darken down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    I suspect jim202's deck gun was not being used to it's greatest ability. The high nozzle position may have dictated an angle for the stream that just did not allow it to do the job. But the handline being operated from the ground and up close allowed the stream to hit the ceiling of fire room(s), allowing fire to darken down.

    I concur with this.

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    Golly guys, I said the same thing above...
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    Just elaborating.

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    I wish someone would make adouble stack nozzle that was a 7/8 inch tip on top of a 1 inch tip. Added to out 1 1/4 inch slug tip this would be perfect for our 2 inch hose.

    It would give us a good 1 3/4 inch flow of 160 gpm, then bump us to 209, and then take us to 300 at 42 psi at the tip.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-21-2013 at 05:38 PM. Reason: typos
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    I like those numbers.

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