1. #26
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    Well, let's be blunt. From the looks of that rather macabre video, the victim was already dead before anybody tried anything. However, that does not excuse poor strategy and tactics (or an absence of them).

    Again, I don't want to MMQB what happened (especially since my alma mater, UK, is not known for QB's), but I am very concerned with what APPEARED to have happened and has been frankly stated elsewhere here.
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  2. #27
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    Blunt or not, if you can't do it right when there isn't any pressure, how in the hell can you expect to do it right when a life depends on just that?
    Anyone with any real experience had had to follow a wreck to impound, or worked behind the cloak of tarps, but it's tough not to fault the ESU's performance in this instance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Blunt or not, if you can't do it right when there isn't any pressure, how in the hell can you expect to do it right when a life depends on just that?
    Anyone with any real experience had had to follow a wreck to impound, or worked behind the cloak of tarps, but it's tough not to fault the ESU's performance in this instance.
    Hey, good point. They should have been able to assess him enough to know if he was viable. And if they did determine he was DOA, they should have left him right where he was until the coroner came.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    You beat me to it! I saw that and fell out of my chair!

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/stun...-motorcyclist/

    I am glad to see some people do think like me and would not just stand there. And i love how one of the people was a tiny woman in a skirt who got right in their and lifted with the rest of them. Meanwhile in NYC, you have half a dozen young and fit men doing NOTHING. These untrained civilians stepped up without any training and lifted a sedan off of a trapped person with no cribbing and without any issue, and the car was ON FIRE!. My hats off to them not just for stepping up when many people run or do nothing, but for proving my point that bystanders CAN help when seconds count.

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    Idk, it was college students, probably not from around there, so technically they're mercenaries. Also no safety vest and proper PPE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Idk, it was college students, probably not from around there, so technically they're mercenaries. Also no safety vest and proper PPE.
    And away we go...............3 2 1 Liftoff! T.C.

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    Bottom line: spreaders are for spreading.

    Crush syndrome??

    How about suffication fom a vehicle on your chest.
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    The video is only one perspective and one view. We that were not there do not have the luxury of knowing everything that was happening and who was doing what, so we really should not judge. Based on the limited information available from the video, it appears that they did screw up badly.
    Last edited by bcjack; 10-04-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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    Just as a side note to this, our dept. did some testing after a situation where a pedestrian was trapped under a car (I don't remember the specifics of the problem, I just remember it took a while to extricate). We tested a method of using a 24' extension ladder as a fulcrum to lift a car. Chocking the wheels and using the ladder as a fulcrum worked well using four firefighters. We tested this method using a slightly damaged ladder (nothing that affected structural integrity) and a junk car. The ladder method was sufficient to lift cars up to a midsize or small pickup. This is a good method for an engine or ladder company without extrication tools to do a rapid extrication. Just thought I'd throw this out there for a possible option to using spreaders.

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    As a fulcrum or a lever?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    As a fulcrum or a lever?
    Fulcrum. The ladder is pushed as far under the car as possible (some cars you need to lift the body to slip the ladder under it) and then you lift from the end of the ladder. Compact cars can even be rolled on their sides. Smaller cars won't generally damage the ladder.

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    So then a lever. That's why I was confused. Think of it as a door on its side. The door is a lever and the hinge, or ground in your case, is the fulcrum. The fulcrum *rarely* moves, the lever does the work pivoting and distributing force.

    Sorry to get technical, I just wanted to make sure I fully understood.
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    As you said - chock the wheels - using the ladder like a fulcrum the car would have a tendancy to roll forward, I would think the wheel chocks off the engine would be better than cribbing, but we may try it ourselves and experement. thanks
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    As you said - chock the wheels - using the ladder like a fulcrum the car would have a tendancy to roll forward, I would think the wheel chocks off the engine would be better than cribbing, but we may try it ourselves and experement. thanks
    I should've said before but we lifted from the side. You can also put step chocks on the opposite side that you are lifting from so it pivots on the chocks and the body isn't lowered on the opposite side as you lift. Sorry for leaving out the details but it's been about 3 or 4 years since we've done it. Just something for the toolbox when you don't have a better method handy.

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    gotcha - thank you -
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Just as a side note to this, our dept. did some testing after a situation where a pedestrian was trapped under a car (I don't remember the specifics of the problem, I just remember it took a while to extricate). We tested a method of using a 24' extension ladder as a fulcrum to lift a car. Chocking the wheels and using the ladder as a fulcrum worked well using four firefighters. We tested this method using a slightly damaged ladder (nothing that affected structural integrity) and a junk car. The ladder method was sufficient to lift cars up to a midsize or small pickup. This is a good method for an engine or ladder company without extrication tools to do a rapid extrication. Just thought I'd throw this out there for a possible option to using spreaders.
    I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader. But if it worked for you, great.

    Lift an inch, crib an inch, no matter how you are lifting.
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  18. #43
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    [QUOTE=FiremanLyman;1307928]I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader. [QUOTE]

    Ditto. Ladders aren't designed to be loaded from that angle, nor for that kind of load. This idea makes me nervous.
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    [QUOTE=EastKyFF;1307959][QUOTE=FiremanLyman;1307928]I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader.

    Ditto. Ladders aren't designed to be loaded from that angle, nor for that kind of load. This idea makes me nervous.
    We tested this several times with a common 24' ladder on several midsize cars with no problems. Remember these ladders are tested fully extended with 4-500 pounds in the center of the ladder, but in this instance they are using the ladders fully retracted, and the weight is on one end. You are only lifting about half the weight of the car as it will still be on two wheels or step chocks. It is also a rapid extrication manuever. again, this is not a method designed for lifting a 1 ton dually pickup, just midsize cars or a light pickup. This is a manuever that needs to be practiced, and it's for when you need to remove a victim from under a car NOW, but you don't have better equipment at the scene. Any adult or even larger child will be bearing a lot of the weight of the car if they are under it as today's cars just don't have much clearance. I'd recommend trying it with a ladder that is maybe damaged at one end but solid otherwise. (Just so the Chief won't go nuts) Go to a junkyard with your rescue dummy, (NO, NOT the PROBIE!) and try it out, I think you'll be surprised how well it works.

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    [QUOTE=johnsb;1307975][QUOTE=EastKyFF;1307959]
    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader.

    We tested this several times with a common 24' ladder on several midsize cars with no problems. Remember these ladders are tested fully extended with 4-500 pounds in the center of the ladder, but in this instance they are using the ladders fully retracted, and the weight is on one end. You are only lifting about half the weight of the car as it will still be on two wheels or step chocks. It is also a rapid extrication manuever. again, this is not a method designed for lifting a 1 ton dually pickup, just midsize cars or a light pickup. This is a manuever that needs to be practiced, and it's for when you need to remove a victim from under a car NOW, but you don't have better equipment at the scene. Any adult or even larger child will be bearing a lot of the weight of the car if they are under it as today's cars just don't have much clearance. I'd recommend trying it with a ladder that is maybe damaged at one end but solid otherwise. (Just so the Chief won't go nuts) Go to a junkyard with your rescue dummy, (NO, NOT the PROBIE!) and try it out, I think you'll be surprised how well it works.
    Since you can do a RESPECTABLE job of lifting one side of an average mid size sedan with a fulcrum and a 6-8' 4x4,a 24' ladder retracted shouldn't be an issue for an EMERGENCY rescue. If I had another method available(like an airbag) I'd probably prefer to use it but if all you have is a 24' extension ladder it will certainly do the job. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 12-06-2011 at 10:01 AM.

  21. #46
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    I think we can all agree the video speaks for itself.

    I also think we can agree.. that this individual or possibly the squad... is doing the best job he/they can with the tools they have.

    Now, the argument is: apparently his toolbox is not full... or perhaps he/they have received some crappy training. Just so we are all on the same page, I know a few of you understand what i'm saying, but the majority here probably not. By toolbox, I'm not just referring to their physical tool box, but their mental capacity.


    For all we know, he/they could have actually been taught this technique. Before going to crazy throwing crap out there and at each other.. maybe its time some did some soul searching. Theres allot of ridiculous crap taught at training classes. Some of those doing the instructing, simply should not be.

    thats as far as I'm going to go with this,,, they are doing the best they can with the tools they have (quote is stolen from a individual named don cruise).

    now, if it where me, this is a sweet scenario for a low pressure cushion.


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    info like this bring into perspective a lot of things for me. this week in my emt class we talked about extraction and urgent moves etc... i appreciate the post.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooby0066 View Post
    now, if it where me, this is a sweet scenario for a low pressure cushion.

    Don't forget the cribbing!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooby0066 View Post
    I think we can all agree the video speaks for itself.

    I also think we can agree.. that this individual or possibly the squad... is doing the best job he/they can with the tools they have.

    Now, the argument is: apparently his toolbox is not full... or perhaps he/they have received some crappy training. Just so we are all on the same page, I know a few of you understand what i'm saying, but the majority here probably not. By toolbox, I'm not just referring to their physical tool box, but their mental capacity.


    For all we know, he/they could have actually been taught this technique. Before going to crazy throwing crap out there and at each other.. maybe its time some did some soul searching. Theres allot of ridiculous crap taught at training classes. Some of those doing the instructing, simply should not be.

    thats as far as I'm going to go with this,,, they are doing the best they can with the tools they have (quote is stolen from a individual named don cruise).

    now, if it where me, this is a sweet scenario for a low pressure cushion.

    Scoob,Speaking ONLY for my area you are much more likely to find HP bags than LP's. You can do the job either way but I bet you can count the LP bag sets in Maine and not use your fingers more than ONCE. T.C.

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    Lever=\=fulcrum.
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