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  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    Bottom line here is a civilian is DEAD, at lest partly because of the responders. .

    Not being there, and going off the second video. As someone else pointed out, look carefully.

    The victims legs are facing down, his torso is facing up. Most likely the victim was dead before anyone did anything. From the way the Engine assessed the Pt at first and talked to their officer, then the ladder started setting up, something tells me if the Pt had a chance, the ladder would move with haste.

    Did ESU over step once again? Yes. Were mistakes made? Yes. Do I think there is more than what we are seeing? Yes.
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    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.


  2. #22
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    I was always taught, "lift an inch, crib an inch". Where was the cribbing during the lift??

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcatrazlt View Post
    I was always taught, "lift an inch, crib an inch". Where was the cribbing during the lift??
    You were taught right! This incident worries me, but I prefer not to speculate since I don't know all the facts.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  4. #24
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    Its kind of ironic people are slamming ESU for an improper lift, and then slamming bystanders for not doing anything (because using human power would certainly be an improper lift). It would be a good idea for the bystanders to try, until they failed then we would all be saying "Stupid people should have waited for the professionals." Trying to lift the car off the guy sounds like a great idea, until you drop it.

    I doubt the response time would have put the guy at risk for crush syndrome. In an urban environment like this, you aren't waiting long enough for this to be a problem. The immediate risk to that guy would be compression of the chest.

  5. #25
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    Due to the risk of crush syndrome, current recommendation to lay first-aiders (in the UK) is to not release victims of crush injury who have been trapped for more than 15 minutes. Treatment consists of not releasing the tourniquet and fluid overloading the patient with added Dextran 4000 iu and slow release of pressure. If pressure is released during first aid then fluid is restricted and an input-output chart for the patient is maintained, and proteins are decreased in the diet.


    Not exactly the U.S., but gives an idea of time line..

  6. #26
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Well, let's be blunt. From the looks of that rather macabre video, the victim was already dead before anybody tried anything. However, that does not excuse poor strategy and tactics (or an absence of them).

    Again, I don't want to MMQB what happened (especially since my alma mater, UK, is not known for QB's), but I am very concerned with what APPEARED to have happened and has been frankly stated elsewhere here.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
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  7. #27
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Blunt or not, if you can't do it right when there isn't any pressure, how in the hell can you expect to do it right when a life depends on just that?
    Anyone with any real experience had had to follow a wreck to impound, or worked behind the cloak of tarps, but it's tough not to fault the ESU's performance in this instance.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  8. #28
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Blunt or not, if you can't do it right when there isn't any pressure, how in the hell can you expect to do it right when a life depends on just that?
    Anyone with any real experience had had to follow a wreck to impound, or worked behind the cloak of tarps, but it's tough not to fault the ESU's performance in this instance.
    Hey, good point. They should have been able to assess him enough to know if he was viable. And if they did determine he was DOA, they should have left him right where he was until the coroner came.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.”
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  9. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    You beat me to it! I saw that and fell out of my chair!

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/stun...-motorcyclist/

    I am glad to see some people do think like me and would not just stand there. And i love how one of the people was a tiny woman in a skirt who got right in their and lifted with the rest of them. Meanwhile in NYC, you have half a dozen young and fit men doing NOTHING. These untrained civilians stepped up without any training and lifted a sedan off of a trapped person with no cribbing and without any issue, and the car was ON FIRE!. My hats off to them not just for stepping up when many people run or do nothing, but for proving my point that bystanders CAN help when seconds count.

  11. #31
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Idk, it was college students, probably not from around there, so technically they're mercenaries. Also no safety vest and proper PPE.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  12. #32
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Idk, it was college students, probably not from around there, so technically they're mercenaries. Also no safety vest and proper PPE.
    And away we go...............3 2 1 Liftoff! T.C.

  13. #33
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    Bottom line: spreaders are for spreading.

    Crush syndrome??

    How about suffication fom a vehicle on your chest.
    Airway first.
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  14. #34
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    The video is only one perspective and one view. We that were not there do not have the luxury of knowing everything that was happening and who was doing what, so we really should not judge. Based on the limited information available from the video, it appears that they did screw up badly.
    Last edited by bcjack; 10-04-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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  15. #35
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    Just as a side note to this, our dept. did some testing after a situation where a pedestrian was trapped under a car (I don't remember the specifics of the problem, I just remember it took a while to extricate). We tested a method of using a 24' extension ladder as a fulcrum to lift a car. Chocking the wheels and using the ladder as a fulcrum worked well using four firefighters. We tested this method using a slightly damaged ladder (nothing that affected structural integrity) and a junk car. The ladder method was sufficient to lift cars up to a midsize or small pickup. This is a good method for an engine or ladder company without extrication tools to do a rapid extrication. Just thought I'd throw this out there for a possible option to using spreaders.

  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    As a fulcrum or a lever?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    As a fulcrum or a lever?
    Fulcrum. The ladder is pushed as far under the car as possible (some cars you need to lift the body to slip the ladder under it) and then you lift from the end of the ladder. Compact cars can even be rolled on their sides. Smaller cars won't generally damage the ladder.

  18. #38
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    So then a lever. That's why I was confused. Think of it as a door on its side. The door is a lever and the hinge, or ground in your case, is the fulcrum. The fulcrum *rarely* moves, the lever does the work pivoting and distributing force.

    Sorry to get technical, I just wanted to make sure I fully understood.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  19. #39
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    As you said - chock the wheels - using the ladder like a fulcrum the car would have a tendancy to roll forward, I would think the wheel chocks off the engine would be better than cribbing, but we may try it ourselves and experement. thanks
    ?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    As you said - chock the wheels - using the ladder like a fulcrum the car would have a tendancy to roll forward, I would think the wheel chocks off the engine would be better than cribbing, but we may try it ourselves and experement. thanks
    I should've said before but we lifted from the side. You can also put step chocks on the opposite side that you are lifting from so it pivots on the chocks and the body isn't lowered on the opposite side as you lift. Sorry for leaving out the details but it's been about 3 or 4 years since we've done it. Just something for the toolbox when you don't have a better method handy.

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