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  1. #41
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    gotcha - thank you -
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  2. #42
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Just as a side note to this, our dept. did some testing after a situation where a pedestrian was trapped under a car (I don't remember the specifics of the problem, I just remember it took a while to extricate). We tested a method of using a 24' extension ladder as a fulcrum to lift a car. Chocking the wheels and using the ladder as a fulcrum worked well using four firefighters. We tested this method using a slightly damaged ladder (nothing that affected structural integrity) and a junk car. The ladder method was sufficient to lift cars up to a midsize or small pickup. This is a good method for an engine or ladder company without extrication tools to do a rapid extrication. Just thought I'd throw this out there for a possible option to using spreaders.
    I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader. But if it worked for you, great.

    Lift an inch, crib an inch, no matter how you are lifting.
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  3. #43
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=FiremanLyman;1307928]I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader. [QUOTE]

    Ditto. Ladders aren't designed to be loaded from that angle, nor for that kind of load. This idea makes me nervous.
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=EastKyFF;1307959][QUOTE=FiremanLyman;1307928]I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader.

    Ditto. Ladders aren't designed to be loaded from that angle, nor for that kind of load. This idea makes me nervous.
    We tested this several times with a common 24' ladder on several midsize cars with no problems. Remember these ladders are tested fully extended with 4-500 pounds in the center of the ladder, but in this instance they are using the ladders fully retracted, and the weight is on one end. You are only lifting about half the weight of the car as it will still be on two wheels or step chocks. It is also a rapid extrication manuever. again, this is not a method designed for lifting a 1 ton dually pickup, just midsize cars or a light pickup. This is a manuever that needs to be practiced, and it's for when you need to remove a victim from under a car NOW, but you don't have better equipment at the scene. Any adult or even larger child will be bearing a lot of the weight of the car if they are under it as today's cars just don't have much clearance. I'd recommend trying it with a ladder that is maybe damaged at one end but solid otherwise. (Just so the Chief won't go nuts) Go to a junkyard with your rescue dummy, (NO, NOT the PROBIE!) and try it out, I think you'll be surprised how well it works.

  5. #45
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=johnsb;1307975][QUOTE=EastKyFF;1307959]
    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    I am not really that comfortable with this stated method. I suppose that if in a bind and you have to make a move now, then sure... I always like thinking outside of the box. My issue is that this seems even less of a secure method than the spreader.

    We tested this several times with a common 24' ladder on several midsize cars with no problems. Remember these ladders are tested fully extended with 4-500 pounds in the center of the ladder, but in this instance they are using the ladders fully retracted, and the weight is on one end. You are only lifting about half the weight of the car as it will still be on two wheels or step chocks. It is also a rapid extrication manuever. again, this is not a method designed for lifting a 1 ton dually pickup, just midsize cars or a light pickup. This is a manuever that needs to be practiced, and it's for when you need to remove a victim from under a car NOW, but you don't have better equipment at the scene. Any adult or even larger child will be bearing a lot of the weight of the car if they are under it as today's cars just don't have much clearance. I'd recommend trying it with a ladder that is maybe damaged at one end but solid otherwise. (Just so the Chief won't go nuts) Go to a junkyard with your rescue dummy, (NO, NOT the PROBIE!) and try it out, I think you'll be surprised how well it works.
    Since you can do a RESPECTABLE job of lifting one side of an average mid size sedan with a fulcrum and a 6-8' 4x4,a 24' ladder retracted shouldn't be an issue for an EMERGENCY rescue. If I had another method available(like an airbag) I'd probably prefer to use it but if all you have is a 24' extension ladder it will certainly do the job. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 12-06-2011 at 10:01 AM.

  6. #46
    Forum Member scooby0066's Avatar
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    I think we can all agree the video speaks for itself.

    I also think we can agree.. that this individual or possibly the squad... is doing the best job he/they can with the tools they have.

    Now, the argument is: apparently his toolbox is not full... or perhaps he/they have received some crappy training. Just so we are all on the same page, I know a few of you understand what i'm saying, but the majority here probably not. By toolbox, I'm not just referring to their physical tool box, but their mental capacity.


    For all we know, he/they could have actually been taught this technique. Before going to crazy throwing crap out there and at each other.. maybe its time some did some soul searching. Theres allot of ridiculous crap taught at training classes. Some of those doing the instructing, simply should not be.

    thats as far as I'm going to go with this,,, they are doing the best they can with the tools they have (quote is stolen from a individual named don cruise).

    now, if it where me, this is a sweet scenario for a low pressure cushion.


  7. #47
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    info like this bring into perspective a lot of things for me. this week in my emt class we talked about extraction and urgent moves etc... i appreciate the post.

  8. #48
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooby0066 View Post
    now, if it where me, this is a sweet scenario for a low pressure cushion.

    Don't forget the cribbing!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  9. #49
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooby0066 View Post
    I think we can all agree the video speaks for itself.

    I also think we can agree.. that this individual or possibly the squad... is doing the best job he/they can with the tools they have.

    Now, the argument is: apparently his toolbox is not full... or perhaps he/they have received some crappy training. Just so we are all on the same page, I know a few of you understand what i'm saying, but the majority here probably not. By toolbox, I'm not just referring to their physical tool box, but their mental capacity.


    For all we know, he/they could have actually been taught this technique. Before going to crazy throwing crap out there and at each other.. maybe its time some did some soul searching. Theres allot of ridiculous crap taught at training classes. Some of those doing the instructing, simply should not be.

    thats as far as I'm going to go with this,,, they are doing the best they can with the tools they have (quote is stolen from a individual named don cruise).

    now, if it where me, this is a sweet scenario for a low pressure cushion.

    Scoob,Speaking ONLY for my area you are much more likely to find HP bags than LP's. You can do the job either way but I bet you can count the LP bag sets in Maine and not use your fingers more than ONCE. T.C.

  10. #50
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Lever=\=fulcrum.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  11. #51
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Lever=\=fulcrum.
    NOT exactly. A fulcrum is a part of a lever system. A Lever is a lever.
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  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    No, it's exact. Your illustration proves it. Move the load between the fulcrum and action point and it's still the same. The ladder is the lever as the ground is the fulcrum. A fulcrum is a constant in a majority of all force multiplying systems, only the load and lever configurations differ.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  13. #53
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    Fulcrum:
    Nasty *** flying machine! T.C.

  14. #54
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    No, it's exact. Your illustration proves it. Move the load between the fulcrum and action point and it's still the same. The ladder is the lever as the ground is the fulcrum. A fulcrum is a constant in a majority of all force multiplying systems, only the load and lever configurations differ.
    Lever REQUIRES a fulcrum which MAY be a separate component. So NOT exact. In the case of using a ladder to raise a car you MIGHT just use the Ladder by raising one end using the ground as the fulcrum. Or you might opt to use some cribbing as a fulcrum in which case to now have a lever with a secondary fulcrum. A winch is a lever,where is the fulcrum there? T.C.

  15. #55
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    If we're going to pick nits... a lever and a fulcrum are two distinct components of the simple machine, "the lever". A "lever" without a fulcrum is just a stick and cannot do any useful work. A fulcrum without a lever can't do any useful work either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Lever REQUIRES a fulcrum which MAY be a separate component. So NOT exact.
    The fulcrum is always seperate from the lever. It is the point in space where the lever transfers force to a relatively immoveable object; not a physical object itself.

    A winch is a lever,where is the fulcrum there?
    The winch is an example of another simple machine, "the wheel and axle"; not a lever. If you were to compare by analogy, the "fulcrum" of a winch is the axle or maybe more accurately, the points at which the axle transfers force to a relatively immovable object.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  16. #56
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    If we're going to pick nits... a lever and a fulcrum are two distinct components of the simple machine, "the lever". A "lever" without a fulcrum is just a stick and cannot do any useful work. A fulcrum without a lever can't do any useful work either.



    The fulcrum is always seperate from the lever. It is the point in space where the lever transfers force to a relatively immoveable object; not a physical object itself.



    The winch is an example of another simple machine, "the wheel and axle"; not a lever. If you were to compare by analogy, the "fulcrum" of a winch is the axle or maybe more accurately, the points at which the axle transfers force to a relatively immovable object.
    I really should refrain from posting when I've thriple shifted. You would be correct on the lever and the diagram below was what I was thinking when i mentioned the winch. DUH! I use this stuff every day, T.C.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    If we're going to pick nits... a lever and a fulcrum are two distinct components of the simple machine, "the lever". A "lever" without a fulcrum is just a stick and cannot do any useful work. A fulcrum without a lever can't do any useful work either.



    The fulcrum is always seperate from the lever. It is the point in space where the lever transfers force to a relatively immoveable object; not a physical object itself.



    The winch is an example of another simple machine, "the wheel and axle"; not a lever. If you were to compare by analogy, the "fulcrum" of a winch is the axle or maybe more accurately, the points at which the axle transfers force to a relatively immovable object.


    Thank you.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  18. #58
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I really should refrain from posting when I've thriple shifted. You would be correct on the lever and the diagram below was what I was thinking when i mentioned the winch. DUH! I use this stuff every day, T.C.
    No worries. Except that a pulley (system) is yet another type of simple machine distinct from both the lever and the wheel & axle. I'll grant that the analogy of a "spinning lever" in the drawing isn't entirely inappropriate.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    No worries. Except that a pulley (system) is yet another type of simple machine distinct from both the lever and the wheel & axle. I'll grant that the analogy of a "spinning lever" in the drawing isn't entirely inappropriate.
    Daily driver for me. Every one of my rigs has a minimum of 4 blocks on them(not Firetrucks) Leverage can be found in many places, a vehicle frame being one. The 25 ton truck has 6 blocks on it. Now if you want to talk compounding,I can show you how to develop some POWER. With a small winch. T.C.

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