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    Default Rush to Lift? Victim Killed after Car Drops During Lift with Spreaders

    A college student pinned under a car that had crashed into his motorcycle in Brooklyn died after rescue workers struggling to free him from the wreckage dropped the vehicle on him in a tragic accident.
    I can think of no more stirring symbol of man's humanity to man than a fire engine.

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    I can think of no more stirring symbol of man's humanity to man than a fire engine.

    -343-

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    www.statter911.com has more video's showing the incident...

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    Exclamation ??????????????????????

    Okay, I've been in the fire service for 38 years and I have NEVER seen anything like this!! I know that I can backseat quaterback this event but I believe that it speaks for itself. There should definitely be some consequences for the individuals involved. WOW!
    Last edited by MaximI; 09-03-2011 at 09:08 PM.

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    Based strictly on what i saw in that video:

    With the FD arriving first and asessing the situation, Why would they (NYPD ESU) even bother to try and lift a car with a spreader when they know damn well the FD has Airbags?.

    Anybody from the FDNY or NYPD ESU can correct me if i am wrong, but it seems to me this was a case of an over anxious and careless NYPD Officer. If they (ESU) were the only ones on scene and their was clearly a situation where the risk of the vehicle falling on the victim during a rushed lift was a better option then waiting (As an example, the vehicle was on fire and the victim would soon be burned) i could understand that. But based on what i saw in that video, the victim was not moving or talking. The vehicle was not on fire or going anywhere. And FD was on scene setting up the proper lift. Absolutley no need for the ESU to use a spreader in this situation. While i am sure the Officer had good intentions, it was still a very bad decision.

    I have heard in the papers that they are saying the victim died from injuries sustained before the car was dropped on him. Any updates on this?

    Lastly, just another observation, i found it odd that their were close to a dozen people standing around before the FD arrived doing NOTHING to help. Granted, they likley had no training, but i just found it odd that they were just standing there. The amount of men their could have likley lifted the rear of that car right up by the wheel wells and one of the women could have pulled the guy out. They could have at least went for the car jack right away. Just my opinion. Me and three freinds lifted the entire rear of a Ford Ranger and walked the truck 180 degrees around. Not hard to lift the rear of most modern cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    Based strictly on what i saw in that video:

    With the FD arriving first and asessing the situation, Why would they (NYPD ESU) even bother to try and lift a car with a spreader when they know damn well the FD has Airbags?.

    Anybody from the FDNY or NYPD ESU can correct me if i am wrong, but it seems to me this was a case of an over anxious and careless NYPD Officer. If they (ESU) were the only ones on scene and their was clearly a situation where the risk of the vehicle falling on the victim during a rushed lift was a better option then waiting (As an example, the vehicle was on fire and the victim would soon be burned) i could understand that. But based on what i saw in that video, the victim was not moving or talking. The vehicle was not on fire or going anywhere. And FD was on scene setting up the proper lift. Absolutley no need for the ESU to use a spreader in this situation. While i am sure the Officer had good intentions, it was still a very bad decision.

    I have heard in the papers that they are saying the victim died from injuries sustained before the car was dropped on him. Any updates on this?

    Lastly, just another observation, i found it odd that their were close to a dozen people standing around before the FD arrived doing NOTHING to help. Granted, they likley had no training, but i just found it odd that they were just standing there. The amount of men their could have likley lifted the rear of that car right up by the wheel wells and one of the women could have pulled the guy out. They could have at least went for the car jack right away. Just my opinion. Me and three freinds lifted the entire rear of a Ford Ranger and walked the truck 180 degrees around. Not hard to lift the rear of most modern cars.
    With all due respect, you honestly beleive that civilians lifting a vehicle and pulling him out from underneath would have been a better plan that wait for trained responders with the proper extrication and medical training and resources?
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    They couldn't have done worse than the "trained responders", could they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, you honestly beleive that civilians lifting a vehicle and pulling him out from underneath would have been a better plan that wait for trained responders with the proper extrication and medical training and resources?
    Yes, because leaving a victim under a compressed object, allowing for compartment syndrome to take effect is always better, right? Oh yeah, wouldn't want to take a chance of giving the victim a C-spine injury...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Yes, because leaving a victim under a compressed object, allowing for compartment syndrome to take effect is always better, right? Oh yeah, wouldn't want to take a chance of giving the victim a C-spine injury...
    Until the car slips and falls back on the victim causing additional injury, or that gas line shifts and spills fuel on the victim ......

    Again, I'd much prefer to arrive at the situation as it occurred rather than have to deal with any number of additional problems that can occur when civilians make good hearted efforts to intervene.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    I would be willing to bet the whole accident and being under a car wasn't much help either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dd View Post
    They couldn't have done worse than the "trained responders", could they?
    Dead on comment right there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    With all due respect, you honestly beleive that civilians lifting a vehicle and pulling him out from underneath would have been a better plan that wait for trained responders with the proper extrication and medical training and resources?
    No, i would much prefer for trained responders to deal with the situation. However, the idea of just standing there while a person is trapped under a vehicle, possibly with the rear axle compressing their chest is not exactly the worst idea. Especially when you have no idea when the First Responders will show up. Seems to me it's a better idea then standing their filming it and commenting on how "messed up" the guy is. And using the jack from the trunk to lift the left rear of the car is by no means a "Risky" idea. The jack is designed to do that. It is FAR less risky idea then using a spreader tool as a jack.

    And their is no way a gas line could be damaged by people lifting a car or even using the jack from the trunk. The lines are not routed anywhere near a place where they could be damaged doing either of what i suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    No, i would much prefer for trained responders to deal with the situation. However, the idea of just standing there while a person is trapped under a vehicle, possibly with the rear axle compressing their chest is not exactly the worst idea. Especially when you have no idea when the First Responders will show up. Seems to me it's a better idea then standing their filming it and commenting on how "messed up" the guy is. And using the jack from the trunk to lift the left rear of the car is by no means a "Risky" idea. The jack is designed to do that. It is FAR less risky idea then using a spreader tool as a jack.

    And their is no way a gas line could be damaged by people lifting a car or even using the jack from the trunk. The lines are not routed anywhere near a place where they could be damaged doing either of what i suggested.
    I'm not going to comment on the NY incident and using a spreader jack as a lift tool.There have been some very long standing issues between FDNY and NYPD ESU. This seems to be just another unfortunate incident in that history.

    Agreed that one of the factors will depend on the proximity to the responding agencies, and obviously, a rural incident is a different incident when compared to an urban situation and a 4-6 minute response, and may justify bystander actions that an urban incident would not.

    Sorry, but depending on the crash there could be a number of components damaged, including the fuel line, which left undisturbed, will remain in place until trained and equipped responders arrive. However once the vehicle is shifted, they may become displaced creating a greater problem. This comment was in specific reference to a car being lifted by a group of people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    He isn't intelligent enough to understand the layout of a basic car and he is too scared to admit that, sometimes, people doing the right thing can produce positive outcomes.

    It's funny, he would rather people do nothing and wait for him to arrive and do nothing.
    And where have I said that as an equipped responder I would do nothing in an incident such as this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Randomly pick 10 of your post. 9 will answer your question. The other one will be you coming up with an excuse for the other 9.
    I believe that many of those were in reference to fire situations with little if any life safety-hazards in non-occupied buildings such as abandoned and vacant structures and closed businesses, or technical rescue situations involving unequipped and/or untrained personnel, where there is significant operational risk involved, not a rescue situation involving trained and equipped members.

    This specific situation does not apply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    No, i would much prefer for trained responders to deal with the situation. However, the idea of just standing there while a person is trapped under a vehicle, possibly with the rear axle compressing their chest is not exactly the worst idea. Especially when you have no idea when the First Responders will show up. Seems to me it's a better idea then standing their filming it and commenting on how "messed up" the guy is. And using the jack from the trunk to lift the left rear of the car is by no means a "Risky" idea. The jack is designed to do that. It is FAR less risky idea then using a spreader tool as a jack.

    And their is no way a gas line could be damaged by people lifting a car or even using the jack from the trunk. The lines are not routed anywhere near a place where they could be damaged doing either of what i suggested.
    No real issue using a spreader to lift.....IF you follow the rules for ANY rescue lift. DON'T lift until you can crib and crib every inch you lift. I've used spreaders to lift vehicles off victims but NEVER without cribbing. Would an airbag be better? Probably but the same rules apply. Gas lines on MANY vehicles can be damaged if you're not careful where you put your lifting tool. On GM's for example,they run just inside of the rockers and frame reinforcements. And around here, the are usually corroded by deicing chemicals so you don't have to work too hard to cause a leak. T.C.

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    I'm fairly sure he was only speaking of people using human power or a jack to lift the car. Unless they've started routing fuel lines under wheel wells, bumpers, or solid unibody reinforcement points, he's 100% correct.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I'm fairly sure he was only speaking of people using human power or a jack to lift the car. Unless they've started routing fuel lines under wheel wells, bumpers, or solid unibody reinforcement points, he's 100% correct.
    Yes or using the jack from the car. That is all most bystanders would have to work with. I was strictly commenting on what i saw in the video in question. And then again if the car was resting on only his legs which would not be affecting his breathing in any way, i would not have even commented on the issue. But when someone's torso is under the car and based on the location of his body it was quite apparent that his chest was pinned, i would say that even with emergency services being called, seconds count. They would not have put the victim at any risk had they jacked the car up using the factory jack.

    If the accident was in front of an auto parts store or a service station, they might run out with the shop type jack which if placed too far inboard under the vehicle can pinch fuel and brake lines. But now we are looking too far into things because based on the video, none of that was the case. And sure, using a spreader to lift a vehicle is perfectly fine when used with shoring. But with no shoring at all, it's a very bad idea. As i said before, i could have understood them doing it if they were the only ones on scene and NOT lifting the car immediatley would be more of a risk doing the lift without shoring. But based on the video, that was not the case either. FD was on scene with all the proper equipment and was getting into position. The car was not on fire and waiting another minute would not have changed the outcome of the incident. So in my opinion ESU made a poor choice.

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    We've had our differences. THIS is not one of them. And we have situations different from yours, NOT a lot of deicing going on in La. Right on all counts although the factory provided jack isn't much to work with either. Hand power? Got mixed feelings on this one,I've been on the job long enough to see outcomes on both sides of the fence here,some good,some fatal.Wasn't there,not my district. IF it HAD been my job,I would have taken a different approach. Think I'll sit back and see how it shakes out. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-04-2011 at 07:42 PM.

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    Bottom line here is a civilian is DEAD, at lest partly because of the responders. We should all take out of this, stabilize the vehicle and crib as you lift.
    At this point it doesn't matter who is at fault or why the responders did what they did. They had a duty to act, and they were negligent, contributing to the death of a civilian.
    Even a first year law student will be able to get millions out of the City of New York.
    I'm betting that each and every one of us have seen similar situations in their career. Take back to your job the lessons from this incident and make sure we do no harm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD View Post
    Bottom line here is a civilian is DEAD, at lest partly because of the responders. .

    Not being there, and going off the second video. As someone else pointed out, look carefully.

    The victims legs are facing down, his torso is facing up. Most likely the victim was dead before anyone did anything. From the way the Engine assessed the Pt at first and talked to their officer, then the ladder started setting up, something tells me if the Pt had a chance, the ladder would move with haste.

    Did ESU over step once again? Yes. Were mistakes made? Yes. Do I think there is more than what we are seeing? Yes.
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    I was always taught, "lift an inch, crib an inch". Where was the cribbing during the lift??

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    Quote Originally Posted by alcatrazlt View Post
    I was always taught, "lift an inch, crib an inch". Where was the cribbing during the lift??
    You were taught right! This incident worries me, but I prefer not to speculate since I don't know all the facts.
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    Its kind of ironic people are slamming ESU for an improper lift, and then slamming bystanders for not doing anything (because using human power would certainly be an improper lift). It would be a good idea for the bystanders to try, until they failed then we would all be saying "Stupid people should have waited for the professionals." Trying to lift the car off the guy sounds like a great idea, until you drop it.

    I doubt the response time would have put the guy at risk for crush syndrome. In an urban environment like this, you aren't waiting long enough for this to be a problem. The immediate risk to that guy would be compression of the chest.

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    Due to the risk of crush syndrome, current recommendation to lay first-aiders (in the UK) is to not release victims of crush injury who have been trapped for more than 15 minutes. Treatment consists of not releasing the tourniquet and fluid overloading the patient with added Dextran 4000 iu and slow release of pressure. If pressure is released during first aid then fluid is restricted and an input-output chart for the patient is maintained, and proteins are decreased in the diet.


    Not exactly the U.S., but gives an idea of time line..

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