1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Burning schit down to the foundation and killing everyone you possibly can. Also driving past scenes of accidents where no first responders are on the scene yet.......Anything and everything you can possibly do to avoid doing what we are here to do- to help others. Yeah, you keep right on doing that. I still wonder if your Chief knows you come on here spouting the crap that you do......??
    Last I knew firefighters don't kill people ,, the fire and the accidents do. We don't cause the problems. We are not responsible for the outcomes. The citizens who initiated the incident are.

    As far as driving past a scene .. find a situation where I actually have, and I'll write you a check for $1,000 as soon as you give me the proof.

    As far as avoiding helping others .. again, prove that statement.

    And as far as burning everything down and killing people ... I beleive in saving what we can save while we still walk away and go back to our families. Both of my Chiefs would agree with that. Neither one of them expects us to get hurt and neither one of them expects us to get killed doing our job either as career or volunteer members. They both expect us to train and respond, and do what we can within that level of training and department resources, while still walking away after the incident. Every time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-18-2011 at 12:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Last I knew firefighters don't kill people ,, .
    It's a good thing you are not a firefighter.


    Oh, and you still havn't answered my question: Does your chief know you come on here and spout the crap that you do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Naaaaaaaaaaaa. I think I'll just continue doing what I'm doing.
    You enjoy making an @$$ of yourself on a regular basis?

    Last I knew firefighters don't kill people ,, the fire and the accidents do. We don't cause the problems. We are not responsible for the outcomes. The citizens who initiated the incident are.
    See my previous line above...
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 09-18-2011 at 03:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    It's a good thing you are not a firefighter.


    Oh, and you still havn't answered my question: Does your chief know you come on here and spout the crap that you do?
    U have no idea what my Chiefs know about what I do but what I say here is no different than what I say at the station is regards to over-aggressiveness without gain, speed, PEE and taking risks that don't play out when weighted against the benefits.

    By the way, when I teach classes, I talk about the same "crap" regarding us being the priority and the residents being second.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    You enjoy making an @$$ of yourself on a regular basis?



    See my previous line above...
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?

    The only thing that we can control is our manpower and resources. Even our response time is dictated by where the occupants have made a choice to live.

    The fact is in a rural environment the fire department can have very little impact on the outcome of a fire. The responsibility for how it does turn out is almost fully dependent on the occupants.
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    Disagreement for the attention is just annoying now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?
    Simple: We became firefighters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    By the way, when I teach classes, I talk about the same "crap" regarding us being the priority and the residents being second.
    Which outlines the overall decline of the fire service in North Louisiana. As I've stated before, many instructors decline to go up for classes as the attempt to implement new ideas is obstructed by a lack of knowledge on the very basics. There is too much reliance on (incorrectly used) PPV and the very idea of any other ventilation is considered "too advanced".

    You are asking for your men to place themselves above all else. While our safety is paramount, we should never place ourselves above those we swore oath (regardless if you admit it's an oath or not, everyone else seems to understand what it is) to. A department ran by fear is not much of a department and you will lose more than you're attempting to save. You will lose public trust and eventually you will lose your department's identity. I truly do not care if you intend to spread your dangerous ideas or not but please quit acting like it's something profound and "oh so many" people are in agreeance with it.

    I'm still waiting for your explanation of why you chose to be in this profession. As an obviously selfless calling, you seem to be hanging your hat in the wrong field.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Disagreement for the attention is just annoying now.
    I was discussing the need for a ladder truck.

    Blame your buddy FWD for dragging this personal crap into it .. Again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?
    We assume responsibility the moment they call us. Even a green behind he ears probie can understand that little gem...


    The only thing that we can control is our manpower and resources. Even our response time is dictated by where the occupants have made a choice to live.
    One can live right across the stret from a firehouse and still have a major fire, or one can live at the edge of a response district and never have one.

    The fact is in a rural environment the fire department can have very little impact on the outcome of a fire. The responsibility for how it does turn out is almost fully dependent on the occupants.
    Really, Bobby? Cut the crap and admit that you know nothing, naught, nada, zero, zip, zilch, zippo, the big goose egg about the job and what it means. You claim to have 30+ years of experience, one would think that it wouldn't be your first year repeated 30+ years in a row.

    Even a small budget rural FD can have a great impact on the outcome of a fire. It takes guts, determination and courage... things that you lack.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Oper77... allow me to apologize for chatising Bobby on your thread....

    Back on the track.... I would go for the quint.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?
    Ummmm, maybe because it's our JOB?? If you dont want to accept the responsibilities set in the job description, why dont you become a plumber? Or is it their fault when the pipes leak? How about becoming a mechanic? Or is it their fault when their brakes and tires suffer from normal wear-and-tear??? Become a cook!!!! Or is it their fault that they are hungry? You are such an A S S HOLE!



    Blame your buddy FWD for dragging this personal crap into it .. Again.[/QUOTE] Nothing personal about you being a cancer to the entire fire service.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    We assume responsibility the moment they call us. Even a green behind he ears probie can understand that little gem...

    Maybe you assume responsibility for the outcome. I don't. The simple fact is that the decisions they have made regarding far personal choices such as alcohol and drug use, and the precautions they have taken regarding fire safety means that the responsibility for the outcome of the incident is more often in not in their hands, not ours, as it will have a direct impact on what we face when we arrive.


    One can live right across the stret from a firehouse and still have a major fire, or one can live at the edge of a response district and never have one.

    And response time will have a positive or negative impact on the event.



    Really, Bobby? Cut the crap and admit that you know nothing, naught, nada, zero, zip, zilch, zippo, the big goose egg about the job and what it means. You claim to have 30+ years of experience, one would think that it wouldn't be your first year repeated 30+ years in a row.

    Even a small budget rural FD can have a great impact on the outcome of a fire. It takes guts, determination and courage... things that you lack.
    It also takes a reasonable response time, which like it or not, handicaps many rural VFDs. It's not uncommon in this area for a single district to cover 300 plus miles from 6-7 stations. In many cases the bulk of the district's manpower can easily be 15-20 miles away from the more rural fringes with far less manpower available. Even in a couple of the rural districts in the northeast where I volunteered a 15 minute plus response time simply due to distance was the norm.

    Delayed notification, which is more common in the rural areas due to the distance between homes or the commonality of rarely traveled roads also plays into the handicaps as well.

    It also takes funding which many rural districts lack. Again, many it's not the case where you are but here, with the 75K Homestead Exemption, funding for many rural districts is a tremendous isssue and many, if not most of them, are under-equipped.
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    BOTH OF YOU SHUT THE F*** UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    you to are fighting about the same crap you always do. Keep you alls crap in the general forum. This is the apparatus innovation forum. This thread is about quints and engines. Not the merit of the rural FD, or how is responsible for the fire, Interior or exterior attacks.

    You two's little game is getting old real quick. Both of you supposed "old" guys need to grow up. Both of you know each others position, but continue to argue about it. Not one of you are going to change each others mind.

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    Ditto. I swear the exact same stuff is being said by and about the exact same people as was being said two years ago when I first joined. Check out for six months and you see the same crap again. I just can't believe that they don't get tired of it.

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    You guys, especially FWD, need to put LA on your ignore list. I've done it for nearly a year and other than other people reposting his nonsense, the time I've spent on FH.com is shorter and more productive.

    That being said, I must tell you LA and others of the same ilk, when you are so adamant about self-preservation/firefighters first, I wonder if you actually believe in RIT or two in /two out (beyond an excuse to stay out)? In the end, you're promoting no increased risk to those outside the emergency for those already in danger. So do you leave trapped firefighters? If not, how do you leave trapped civilians who don'r have the protection we bring to the fight? I know I'd have zero faith in those who think like you being my back-up or rescue personnel.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-19-2011 at 09:38 AM. Reason: keyboard misspelled words again

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    BOTH OF YOU SHUT THE F*** UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    you to are fighting about the same crap you always do. Keep you alls crap in the general forum. This is the apparatus innovation forum. This thread is about quints and engines. Not the merit of the rural FD, or how is responsible for the fire, Interior or exterior attacks.

    You two's little game is getting old real quick. Both of you supposed "old" guys need to grow up. Both of you know each others position, but continue to argue about it. Not one of you are going to change each others mind.
    I have no issues with that.

    As I have said before, don't bait me and I won't comment beyond the thread topic, if I even comment at all. decide you want to stir up things up .....

    It's really is that simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    You guys, especially FWD, need to put LA on your ignore list. I've done it for nearly a year and other than other people reposting his nonsense, the time I've spent on FH.com is shorter and more productive.

    That being said, I must tell you LA and others of the same ilk, when you are so adamant about self-preservation/firefighters first, I wonder if you actually believe in RIT or two in /two out (beyond an excuse to stay out)? In the end, you're promoting no increased risk to those outside the emergency for those already in danger. So do you leave trapped firefighters? If not, how do you leave trapped civilians who don'r have the protection we bring to the fight? I know I'd have zero faith in those who think like you being my back-up or rescue personnel.
    To answer your question, no, I don't leave trapped firefighters.

    First of all, they are my fellow firefighters, and as such, they are the priority.

    Secondly, and probably more important, they have a far better chance of survival than civilians as they may still have air, they have PPE, they have communications to guide us to their location and they should have tools which they can use to begin self-rescue. They also have training and fire experience, so they should be able to survive a hostile ebviroment fire longer than untrained and unprotected civilians. For that reason, they are viable far longer than civilian victims.

    The hard cold facts is that in a rural or light surburban enviroment, such as ours, as well as my VFD, most civilian victims are dead long before our arrival, and often dead even before we are toned. In other words, we rarely run on viable victims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My previous department had a tower and then a quint for the last 12 years I was there, and I was one of the certified operators.

    If you re-read my post you will see that nowhere did I advise him if he should have an aerial or not, but I did discuss the downside of running with 2 engines if they did purchase an aerial instead of the third engine.

    I did say that my combo department, even though we on paper have some commercial structures and are starting to see some newer homes that could justify an aerial, and are only true current access to an aerial is the city, we could not justify the purchase of an aerial at this time as the run volume where it would be used is simply not there.
    NO downside to running a QUINT with TWO Engines available.We do it all the Time.Get out of your abandoned playpen, and realize that a QUINT,PROPERLY USED, is a TACTICAL weapon.IF you READ the OP's information,he is SURROUNDED with Multi Engine companies,readily available. Ladder/Truck/Aerials,whatever you care to call them,NOT so much.WHICH makes it a prime application for a Truck or a Quint. Guess that lesson didn't take either. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    The hard cold facts is that in a rural or light surburban enviroment, such as ours, as well as my VFD, most civilian victims are dead long before our arrival, and often dead even before we are toned. In other words, we rarely run on viable victims.
    First off, it's not a rural or suburban problem. It's a bossier parish problem, as that's the first time I've had a member of a department say that.

    Two questions:

    Why do you think you rarely run on viable victims?

    Does this influence your training and/or skill set.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    First off, it's not a rural or suburban problem. It's a bossier parish problem, as that's the first time I've had a member of a department say that.

    Two questions:

    Why do you think you rarely run on viable victims?

    Does this influence your training and/or skill set.
    This ought to be GOOD. Stand by while I stock up on some essentials like popcorn. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-19-2011 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NO downside to running a QUINT with TWO Engines available.We do it all the Time.Get out of your abandoned playpen, and realize that a QUINT,PROPERLY USED, is a TACTICAL weapon.IF you READ the OP's information,he is SURROUNDED with Multi Engine companies,readily available. Ladder/Truck/Aerials,whatever you care to call them,NOT so much.WHICH makes it a prime application for a Truck or a Quint. Guess that lesson didn't take either. T.C.
    I fully understand the value of a quint, and I would love to have one here as it would have some very valuable applications.

    I did discuss in my situation how a quint could be a valuable tool but right now, given the volume of fires or technical rescues where it would be, or could be, ulilized is simply not there and does not justify the investment.

    Again, I didn't recommend to the OP that he should or should not purchase a quint as I know nothing about his department or his operations. I did discuss, the drawback, IMO of having 2 v. 3 engines.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-19-2011 at 11:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    First off, it's not a rural or suburban problem. It's a bossier parish problem, as that's the first time I've had a member of a department say that.

    Two questions:

    Why do you think you rarely run on viable victims?

    Does this influence your training and/or skill set.
    Question 1: In the 9 years I have been here, we have had one rescue opportunity, and the rescue was successful. So victims still in the home on arrival is a VERY rare event for us. In addition, we have not had a structural fire fatality in the 9 years that I have been here.

    To the best of my knowledge, we have never had a structural fire fatality.

    The fact is in the area outside of our core if we respond to a working fire, 75%of the time the structure is well or heavily involved, and if there were victims inside, due to the level of fire, they would not be viable. The reason is simple -time and distance, as well as in some cases, a delayed notification.

    One of our neighboring departments with similiar rural demographics have experienced 2 fatal fires in the last year. Both structures were fully involved on arrival with no chance of victim viability and in both cases a delayed notification (passerbys), heavy fire at the time it was reported and extended response times were all major players.

    As far as my other previous VFDs, again, distance and response times has been the major factor in the 3 fatal fires which I have worked.

    Question 2: I don't think it has an influence on our training or skill set. I don't see why it would or should.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-19-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Question 1: In the 9 years I have been here, we have had one rescue opportunity, and the rescue was successful. So victims still in the home on arrival is a VERY rare event for us. In addition, we have not had a structural fire fatality in the 9 years that I have been here.

    To the best of my knowledge, we have never had a structural fire fatality.

    The fact is in the area outside of our core if we respond to a working fire, 75%of the time the structure is well or heavily involved, and if there were victims inside, due to the level of fire, they would not be viable. The reason is simple -time and distance, as well as in some cases, a delayed notification.

    One of our neighboring departments with similiar rural demographics have experienced 2 fatal fires in the last year. Both structures were fully involved on arrival with no chance of victim viability and in both cases a delayed notification (passerbys), heavy fire at the time it was reported and extended response times were all major players.

    As far as my other previous VFDs, again, distance and response times has been the major factor in the 3 fatal fires which I have worked.

    Question 2: I don't think it has an influence on our training or skill set. I don't see why it would or should.
    1: What would you say is the reason behind this? House proximity? Station proximity? Slow turn out? What are you doing to change that?

    2: Judging by your mindset for other training systems, if you're likely to not face rescue situations, why are you (if you are) still training for them?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Um, WOW.

    This place obviously has issues. There is so much crap here, I think I wont waist time getting involved.

    I appreciate all the people who were testing me, or trying me, to help me open my eyes.

    I think I have the answer to my questions.

    I am in an engine rich community and a truck/quint poor community, and the people who have them, arent fully experienced in their response, application, and full potential. That is where my experience comes in.

    I have been called to appear before the chiefs to make my debate, pending my debate gets the approval of the chiefs, I will be asked to meet with the committee, and from there I will have to put on a presentation to the company as a entity.

    If anyone has Valuable, experienced input they care to offer, please feel free to private message me.

    Thank you to all who have constructively commented and offered input to this topic.

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