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  1. #41
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    Yep, I'd been hoping to make it up earlier but the summer was busy work-wise. We were going to take a road trip the week after Labor Day but then I ended up in the EVOC TTT on the 2nd so figured I'd just wait till then to make the trip!


  2. #42
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    I have no idea on your call volume, but IMO, going down to 2 engines and a quint has the potential to backfire if one of the engines goes down.

    Sure, you could use the quint as an attack piece and the remaining engine as a supply piece when that happens, but that may be tough to pull off if the personnel are used to utilizing S & T that has the quint doing the truck work.

    Of course, if you have a department that is close enough with an engine that can take the place of the 2nd engine and handle supply work in a timely fashion, that becomes much less of an issue.

    The other issue quite honestly is how often is the stick going to be used. Any aerial represents not only an additional investment in money, but also a significant investment in training time. Do you have enough call for an aerial to justify that training investment?

    We are in what sounds like a similiar situation as we have seen some very explosive residental growth over the past 10 years. We have gone from a community of mobile hom,es and 1500-1800 sf homes to a community with much larger 2200-3000 sf homes including some larger 2-story buildings. While our large commercial property is limited to a large supermarket, 2 or 3 strip malls a few "small-box" stores, which on paper, may justify an aerial, the call volume in these structures simply cannot justify either the financial or training investment required.

    We do have access toa city 75" about a mile from our border, however die to the LA rating system, which deducts points for AMA given over a set percentage of total runs, we have not requested nor would the city likley put it on a first alarm assignment for us.

    There are certainly pluses to having an aerial, but you need to look at the number of times you would likely use the stick in an average year v. the number of times you would be better off with a third engine.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no idea on your call volume, but IMO, going down to 2 engines and a quint has the potential to backfire if one of the engines goes down.

    Sure, you could use the quint as an attack piece and the remaining engine as a supply piece when that happens, but that may be tough to pull off if the personnel are used to utilizing S & T that has the quint doing the truck work.

    Of course, if you have a department that is close enough with an engine that can take the place of the 2nd engine and handle supply work in a timely fashion, that becomes much less of an issue.

    The other issue quite honestly is how often is the stick going to be used. Any aerial represents not only an additional investment in money, but also a significant investment in training time. Do you have enough call for an aerial to justify that training investment?

    We are in what sounds like a similiar situation as we have seen some very explosive residental growth over the past 10 years. We have gone from a community of mobile hom,es and 1500-1800 sf homes to a community with much larger 2200-3000 sf homes including some larger 2-story buildings. While our large commercial property is limited to a large supermarket, 2 or 3 strip malls a few "small-box" stores, which on paper, may justify an aerial, the call volume in these structures simply cannot justify either the financial or training investment required.

    We do have access toa city 75" about a mile from our border, however die to the LA rating system, which deducts points for AMA given over a set percentage of total runs, we have not requested nor would the city likley put it on a first alarm assignment for us.

    There are certainly pluses to having an aerial, but you need to look at the number of times you would likely use the stick in an average year v. the number of times you would be better off with a third engine.
    Lessee if I got this straight. A GUY who does little to NO Ladder work and NO Aerial operations is advising a guy who KNOWS about quints on the subject of whether or not his response area needs one? Now that's FUNNY,I don't care WHO you are.As a Quint owner operator,La you couldn't be MORE off base. By the demographics that oper77 put up,he is in an EXECLLENT place to take advantage of a Quint. Surrounded by ENGINES but Aerial devices are close to a half hr out. I'd say that was PRIME Quint country. Or a straight Truck,which his Bosses DON'T want. T.C.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Lessee if I got this straight. A GUY who does little to NO Ladder work and NO Aerial operations is advising a guy who KNOWS about quints on the subject of whether or not his response area needs one? Now that's FUNNY,I don't care WHO you are.As a Quint owner operator,La you couldn't be MORE off base. By the demographics that oper77 put up,he is in an EXECLLENT place to take advantage of a Quint. Surrounded by ENGINES but Aerial devices are close to a half hr out. I'd say that was PRIME Quint country. Or a straight Truck,which his Bosses DON'T want. T.C.
    My previous department had a tower and then a quint for the last 12 years I was there, and I was one of the certified operators.

    If you re-read my post you will see that nowhere did I advise him if he should have an aerial or not, but I did discuss the downside of running with 2 engines if they did purchase an aerial instead of the third engine.

    I did say that my combo department, even though we on paper have some commercial structures and are starting to see some newer homes that could justify an aerial, and are only true current access to an aerial is the city, we could not justify the purchase of an aerial at this time as the run volume where it would be used is simply not there.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #45
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    where it would be used is simply not there.
    Exactly. What do yard breathers need with an aerial. Now please, for the love of christ, shut the hell up and let people who know what they are talking about advise the man.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #46
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    How much of an issue would the cost be for your department? Seems to me that the flexibility provided by having a different type of apparatus would be a plus, but is it worth the price?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Exactly. What do yard breathers need with an aerial. Now please, for the love of christ, shut the hell up and let people who know what they are talking about advise the man.
    Maybe you need to shut the hell up.

    You need to stop confusing my personal feelings regarding FD operations with the operations of my combo department. If I had my way, we would operate exterior only far more than we do. Unfortunately, there are members and officers that beleive that making interior attacks most of the time is a good thing. I personally disagree with that and I would personally like to see us operate exterior only far more than we do.

    As far as the aerial we average maybe 1 fire every 3 years where there would even be a remote possibility of having to use an aerial, so even though we have structures where an aerial could be used, and the number are increasing, the actual fire volume cannot justify it's purchase. In many of the cases where we could use an aerial, we can still utilize ground ladders to achieve the same goal, though it may take a littler longer and/or a little more manpower.

    There simply could be no way for us to justify it with the exception of a rating point or two.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-17-2011 at 07:12 PM.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe you need to shut the hell up.

    You need to stop confusing my personal feelings regarding FD operations with the operations of my combo department. If I had my way, we would operate exterior only far more than we do. Unfortunately, there are members and officers that beleive that making interior attacks most of the time is a good thing. I personally disagree with that and I would personally like to see us operate exterior only far more than we do.
    Which is precisely why you need to stop advising other, progressive firefighters on tactics, policies and procedures for offensive structural firefighting, except maybe in matters of which portable folding chairs or which sports/bottled waters are best for rehab.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Which is precisely why you need to stop advising other, progressive firefighters on tactics, policies and procedures for offensive structural firefighting, except maybe in matters of which portable folding chairs or which sports/bottled waters are best for rehab.
    Naaaaaaaaaaaa. I think I'll just continue doing what I'm doing.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Naaaaaaaaaaaa. I think I'll just continue doing what I'm doing.
    Burning schit down to the foundation and killing everyone you possibly can. Also driving past scenes of accidents where no first responders are on the scene yet.......Anything and everything you can possibly do to avoid doing what we are here to do- to help others. Yeah, you keep right on doing that. I still wonder if your Chief knows you come on here spouting the crap that you do......??
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Burning schit down to the foundation and killing everyone you possibly can. Also driving past scenes of accidents where no first responders are on the scene yet.......Anything and everything you can possibly do to avoid doing what we are here to do- to help others. Yeah, you keep right on doing that. I still wonder if your Chief knows you come on here spouting the crap that you do......??
    Last I knew firefighters don't kill people ,, the fire and the accidents do. We don't cause the problems. We are not responsible for the outcomes. The citizens who initiated the incident are.

    As far as driving past a scene .. find a situation where I actually have, and I'll write you a check for $1,000 as soon as you give me the proof.

    As far as avoiding helping others .. again, prove that statement.

    And as far as burning everything down and killing people ... I beleive in saving what we can save while we still walk away and go back to our families. Both of my Chiefs would agree with that. Neither one of them expects us to get hurt and neither one of them expects us to get killed doing our job either as career or volunteer members. They both expect us to train and respond, and do what we can within that level of training and department resources, while still walking away after the incident. Every time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-17-2011 at 11:16 PM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Last I knew firefighters don't kill people ,, .
    It's a good thing you are not a firefighter.


    Oh, and you still havn't answered my question: Does your chief know you come on here and spout the crap that you do?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Naaaaaaaaaaaa. I think I'll just continue doing what I'm doing.
    You enjoy making an @$$ of yourself on a regular basis?

    Last I knew firefighters don't kill people ,, the fire and the accidents do. We don't cause the problems. We are not responsible for the outcomes. The citizens who initiated the incident are.
    See my previous line above...
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 09-18-2011 at 02:18 PM.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    It's a good thing you are not a firefighter.


    Oh, and you still havn't answered my question: Does your chief know you come on here and spout the crap that you do?
    U have no idea what my Chiefs know about what I do but what I say here is no different than what I say at the station is regards to over-aggressiveness without gain, speed, PEE and taking risks that don't play out when weighted against the benefits.

    By the way, when I teach classes, I talk about the same "crap" regarding us being the priority and the residents being second.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    You enjoy making an @$$ of yourself on a regular basis?



    See my previous line above...
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?

    The only thing that we can control is our manpower and resources. Even our response time is dictated by where the occupants have made a choice to live.

    The fact is in a rural environment the fire department can have very little impact on the outcome of a fire. The responsibility for how it does turn out is almost fully dependent on the occupants.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  16. #56
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    Disagreement for the attention is just annoying now.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?
    Simple: We became firefighters.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    By the way, when I teach classes, I talk about the same "crap" regarding us being the priority and the residents being second.
    Which outlines the overall decline of the fire service in North Louisiana. As I've stated before, many instructors decline to go up for classes as the attempt to implement new ideas is obstructed by a lack of knowledge on the very basics. There is too much reliance on (incorrectly used) PPV and the very idea of any other ventilation is considered "too advanced".

    You are asking for your men to place themselves above all else. While our safety is paramount, we should never place ourselves above those we swore oath (regardless if you admit it's an oath or not, everyone else seems to understand what it is) to. A department ran by fear is not much of a department and you will lose more than you're attempting to save. You will lose public trust and eventually you will lose your department's identity. I truly do not care if you intend to spread your dangerous ideas or not but please quit acting like it's something profound and "oh so many" people are in agreeance with it.

    I'm still waiting for your explanation of why you chose to be in this profession. As an obviously selfless calling, you seem to be hanging your hat in the wrong field.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Disagreement for the attention is just annoying now.
    I was discussing the need for a ladder truck.

    Blame your buddy FWD for dragging this personal crap into it .. Again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So please explain to me how we somehow assume responsibility for the survival of the occupants or the well-being of their property when they control the conditions that lead to the fire, the conditions that influenced the behavior and the spread of the fire and the conditions that hindered or helped their escape such as smoke detectors and EDITH?
    We assume responsibility the moment they call us. Even a green behind he ears probie can understand that little gem...


    The only thing that we can control is our manpower and resources. Even our response time is dictated by where the occupants have made a choice to live.
    One can live right across the stret from a firehouse and still have a major fire, or one can live at the edge of a response district and never have one.

    The fact is in a rural environment the fire department can have very little impact on the outcome of a fire. The responsibility for how it does turn out is almost fully dependent on the occupants.
    Really, Bobby? Cut the crap and admit that you know nothing, naught, nada, zero, zip, zilch, zippo, the big goose egg about the job and what it means. You claim to have 30+ years of experience, one would think that it wouldn't be your first year repeated 30+ years in a row.

    Even a small budget rural FD can have a great impact on the outcome of a fire. It takes guts, determination and courage... things that you lack.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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