1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    1: What would you say is the reason behind this? House proximity? Station proximity? Slow turn out? What are you doing to change that?

    2: Judging by your mindset for other training systems, if you're likely to not face rescue situations, why are you (if you are) still training for them?
    Basic fire behavior and human anatomy should tell you that the longer a fire department response time, the less likely a victim is to survive. And yes, in the rural enviroment, the chances of a victim being viable on arrival is slim to none. Even if they have not been overrun by fire, the extended exposure to smoke id likely to kill them before we arrive. Those are the cold hard facts and we need to base our decsions on those facts.

    As far as your questions ......

    1. The rural areas of our district are very sparesly populated. Because of that, very few of our responders live in those areas. The majority of our volunteeers live where the bulk of our population lives, in the core area of the district, which is located along the southern border of our response area.

    And yes, it takes time for the rural responders to drive to the closest station, and then back to the scene, which may total 8-10 miles. When they arrive they are limited in what they can do due to the limited number of volunteers on-scene.

    It takes anywhere from 8-14 minutes for resources from our 3 southern stations, including our staffed station, to reach the rural areas of the district.

    And by the way, all of our district meets the rating requirements for station distribution with the exception of one, which is primarily trees, oilfield pumps and a few oilfield offices and sheds.

    We have decreased the response times in the rural areas over the last 5 years by installing a mobile home at 4 of our 5 volunteer stations, and allowing up to 2 members to live there for free in exchange for a 45-hour duty week. It has made a difference in response when they are there at a minimum investment to us.

    Our rural response time is as good, if not better than most rural areas. The simple fact is that you can't slow down the clock and you can't produce a ton of volunteers in sparsley popluated areas. Living in a rural area will always have it's drawback, and often delayed fire, EMS and LE response is on of them. And any long time resident of those areas understand, and generally accept, that reality.

    2. So what exactly do we not train for? And ten bucks says you will bring up 2nd story winndow rescues, which is certainly not the same situation as bread and butter structural fire rescues.

    Are there other areas that get equal priority? Yes. And yes, the liklihood of using a particuliar skill, such as extrication, brush fire operations or EMS, does factor into how it gets mixed into the training schedule.

    We do search and rescue training on a regular basis. In fact, we just replaced our small burn building with 3 attached Conex's, which will give the members a much larger area to train on search operations.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-19-2011 at 12:14 PM.
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    I'm just bringing up your point of "training to your area". You've stated that there are many things you do not find worth your time to train on as they are not situations you'd likely face, given they either do not exist or they happen so rarely. Given such stated low chances of viable victim rescues, how do you rationalize continued training on rescue and place others on a "we don't face that kind of problem here"?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I'm just bringing up your point of "training to your area". You've stated that there are many things you do not find worth your time to train on as they are not situations you'd likely face, given they either do not exist or they happen so rarely. Given such stated low chances of viable victim rescues, how do you rationalize continued training on rescue and place others on a "we don't face that kind of problem here"?
    Yes, there are things that we either do not exist in our response area, or could face but are unlikely to, that we do not train on because of time limitations, especially with the volunteer members.

    However, because structural fire rescue is a basic fire department function that can happen in any building within our area, as compared to say, 2nd floor rescues, which can only happen in an extremly limited number of occupancies in our area, it's a skill that we do train on often even though it's a very rare response function for us.

    Training time with volunteers is limited so therefore, we must train on the most likely scenarios first.
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    LA thank you for ruining another thread on this site. I have an idea lets start an LAfire thread on the main forum if you want to bash LA you post it in there. You all can argue with him all you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, there are things that we either do not exist in our response area, or could face but are unlikely to, that we do not train on because of time limitations, especially with the volunteer members.

    However, because structural fire rescue is a basic fire department function that can happen in any building within our area, as compared to say, 2nd floor rescues, which can only happen in an extremly limited number of occupancies in our area, it's a skill that we do train on often even though it's a very rare response function for us.

    Training time with volunteers is limited so therefore, we must train on the most likely scenarios first.
    Just so I know I'm fully understanding you:

    You're fully suggesting that fires in your area are prediomently routine in nature. A least routine enough that you are able to nearly predict both conditions on arrival and/or predict both skills and resources needed to get it under control.

    Though the basic fire ground operation of rescue is used in all but the most limited of circumstances, it's operation is both trained on and utilized, yet, many other basic fire ground operations, also rare and chances of utilization are low, are completely logical to both omit and ignore.

    In a nut shell, this is what you're saying?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    LA thank you for ruining another thread on this site. I have an idea lets start an LAfire thread on the main forum if you want to bash LA you post it in there. You all can argue with him all you want.
    If you'll look back FWD attacked me first .. Again.

    Up until that post my comments were on topic.

    It's really simple ... You attack me, I'm responding. You don't attack me .. The thread stays on topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    LA thank you for ruining another thread on this site. I have an idea lets start an LAfire thread on the main forum if you want to bash LA you post it in there. You all can argue with him all you want.
    As you stated above....he is not alone. He has his "followers" that can't help but attack him on every thread....even when he is not on the thread.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Save for a few post, I feel the conversation right now is fairly civil. If you're this agitated that the conversation isn't your forte' then feel free to leave. Offline, do you cry and demand control of a conversation or do you put on your big boy pants and be mature about it?

    Yes, many, including me, attack lafire but if you're so determined to silence anyone who talks about something youdl don't like, you probably shouldn't use the Internet.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Just so I know I'm fully understanding you:

    You're fully suggesting that fires in your area are prediomently routine in nature. A least routine enough that you are able to nearly predict both conditions on arrival and/or predict both skills and resources needed to get it under control.

    Though the basic fire ground operation of rescue is used in all but the most limited of circumstances, it's operation is both trained on and utilized, yet, many other basic fire ground operations, also rare and chances of utilization are low, are completely logical to both omit and ignore.

    In a nut shell, this is what you're saying?
    Yes, that is what I am saying.

    No fires are "routine", however since I have been here, 95% of of our structure fires, excluding small sheds and outbuildings, have occurred in 3 types of structures - single-wides, double-wides and site built homes. The other 5% represents the rare commercial fire or odd-ball fire in a low frequency structure type.

    We have a limited number of occupancy types, and those fires in those occupancy types will generally spread in predictable ways and yes, at fairly predictatable speeds.

    There's no secret that you can look at building types and make a fairly accurate prediction of fire conditions in X amount of time under normal conditions. For example we know that an older model trailer will burn from end to end in less than 15 minutes from ignition. Given that, when we are dispatched to street Z, which is all older model trailers, we are likely to find a fully involved structure on arrival. We know that the newer double-wides may burn somewhat slower.

    I don't think that's rocket science.

    And yes, since the bulk of our fires are in those 3 structure types, we are very well aware of the skill sets and resources, including likely water and manpower requirements, needed for those operations.

    We have enough experienced members and members trained to advanced certification levels that faced with that rare commercial fire or odd-ball structure fire, we adapt, and deal with the situation, but again our training is focused on the skill levels of our volunteers, not our advanced members.

    Again, I'm sure you're departments are the same.

    You disagree wirth ommitting or training infrequently on low frequency operations. I have no problems with that, but I disagree.

    Training time is finite resource, especially with volunteers. Unless you decide that you want to mandate an increase in that training time, which will have concequences, the department must priotize it's training and that means deciding which skills are critical to it's operation, and which skills, though possibly still important, are less critical. In a perfect world, training time would be unlimited, but in the real world, decisions have to be made regarding which skills I will teach in the time I have to teach it. This is especially true in the volunteer enviroment.

    Does that mean that one day you may come across a building or vehicle fire you are not trained to fight or a rescue you are not trained to perform? Yes. And that's unfortunate, but that is the reality of dealing with volunteers with limited training time. I'm not afraid to say that there simply isn't enough time to train volunteers to handle every type of emergency we could possibly face but we can train them to handle most, if not all, of the emergencies we probably will face if we understand our districts.

    Even if we were to increase mandated training time by 25%, we would still have to make choices. Likeley it would be the same with a 50% increase, which would be unreasonable for volunteers and still leave uncovered topics that you may consider critical, but in our enviroment may have little if any relevence.

    I guess to you, that makes them unprepared and unprofessional. You beleive that all firefighters should be prepared to handle all situations, and that is your opinion. So be it. That might be fine in acareer enviroment with far more training time than is available with volunteers, but I guess I'm a little more realistic. To me, I beleive in making the most of the training time available and using that to make them better at the most likely situations we, as a department given our hazards and structures, will face. As I stated earlier I have no illusions about being ready for everything.

    Let's save the rest of this discussion for another time and thread.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-19-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Save for a few post, I feel the conversation right now is fairly civil. If you're this agitated that the conversation isn't your forte' then feel free to leave. Offline, do you cry and demand control of a conversation or do you put on your big boy pants and be mature about it?

    Yes, many, including me, attack lafire but if you're so determined to silence anyone who talks about something youdl don't like, you probably shouldn't use the Internet.
    or people could try to stay on topic.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    or people could try to stay on topic.
    Exactly it is getting old the thread turns into the same debate with LA. I will go out on a limb and even state that the first few post by LA were topic related. We were having a relevent discussion on engine versus quint and then it turns into the same old **** with LA. I by no means am trying to control or censor anyone on here. Just getting ****ed that every thread turns out this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Save for a few post, I feel the conversation right now is fairly civil. If you're this agitated that the conversation isn't your forte' then feel free to leave. Offline, do you cry and demand control of a conversation or do you put on your big boy pants and be mature about it?

    Yes, many, including me, attack lafire but if you're so determined to silence anyone who talks about something youdl don't like, you probably shouldn't use the Internet.
    How many of your 1500 post are related to LA arguing. You post alot of valid stuff and have many great points. But I am willing to be atleast 500 post are filled with the same old lafire bs. You could almost copy and paste every thread that turns into an LAfire debate.

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    I won't refute that. I'm a one trick pony.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    How many of your 1500 post are related to LA arguing. You post alot of valid stuff and have many great points. But I am willing to be atleast 500 post are filled with the same old lafire bs. You could almost copy and paste every thread that turns into an LAfire debate.
    Dang..... You've figured out my cut and paste trick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    How many of your 1500 post are related to LA arguing. You post alot of valid stuff and have many great points. But I am willing to be atleast 500 post are filled with the same old lafire bs. You could almost copy and paste every thread that turns into an LAfire debate.
    I think that as long as he continues to spread his bullschit, a few of us out here will combat him. I feel it's my duty, as a "senior man" here in the virtual firehouse to help guide and educate the younger and less experienced members and steer them away from the trainwreck of information that he disburses.

    As someone previously mentioned- you can put him on ignore. And that goes for myself, as well. I will lose approximately .02 nanoseconds of sleep if you choose that route (if that much.)

    Have a pleasant day!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I think that as long as he continues to spread his bullschit, a few of us out here will combat him. I feel it's my duty, as a "senior man" here in the virtual firehouse to help guide and educate the younger and less experienced members and steer them away from the trainwreck of information that he disburses.

    As someone previously mentioned- you can put him on ignore. And that goes for myself, as well. I will lose approximately .02 nanoseconds of sleep if you choose that route (if that much.)

    Have a pleasant day!
    Okay, then confront him WHEN he spews it. This thread...HE DIDN'T!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATFDFF View Post
    Okay, then confront him WHEN he spews it. This thread...HE DIDN'T!
    Fair enough. I just dont feel he is qualified to dispense information regarding tactical offensive firefighting when considering the purchase of a major piece of equipment.

    I will cease and desist further engagement with him in this thread effective immediately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Fair enough. I just dont feel he is qualified to dispense information regarding tactical offensive firefighting when considering the purchase of a major piece of equipment.

    I will cease and desist further engagement with him in this thread effective immediately.
    Thank You!!!

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    Lets get back to talking about fire trucks!

    Does anybody carry a 45 or 50 footer on a quint?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Lets get back to talking about fire trucks!

    Does anybody carry a 45 or 50 footer on a quint?
    I dont think I have EVER seen a quint that did not have anything more than one 35'
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I dont think I have EVER seen a quint that did not have anything more than one 35'
    Well,OBVIOUSLY,you never looked at OURS! Better check back in that ol TC's building a Ladder thread............hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I dont think I have EVER seen a quint that did not have anything more than one 35'
    Yea we only carry

    1 14' small ext ladder
    1 10' attic ladder
    2 14' roof ladder
    1 16' roof ladder
    1 24' ext ladder
    1 35 ext ladder

    However with up to 6 quints on a working fire we have plenty of ground ladders on scene. However I wish we had a few 45' or 50' ladders for those few times they are needed. We used to carry them on the tiller trucks prior to switching to the quint concept back in 1998.

    I have never seen one on a quint and was wondering if anyone does.

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    Wouldn't the need for that tall of a ground ladder be precluded by the honkin big ladder on top of the truck? Seems to me that would probably be easier and safer to use than a 45' or 50'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    Wouldn't the need for that tall of a ground ladder be precluded by the honkin big ladder on top of the truck? Seems to me that would probably be easier and safer to use than a 45' or 50'.
    Not necessarily. Trees between the window and truck, power lines, other accessibility hindering scenarios...

    We carry a 45' on ours for that very reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by auxman View Post
    Wouldn't the need for that tall of a ground ladder be precluded by the honkin big ladder on top of the truck? Seems to me that would probably be easier and safer to use than a 45' or 50'.
    No it is useful in places where the bigger ladder on top cannot fit. The rear or sides of a four story, when you cannot get the truck down the alley. The rear of a garden apartment.
    just to name a few. Whilie these ladders are not used on everyday they come in handy.

    TAJM611- Is that a quint or true ladder truck? Straight truck or tiller?

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