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  1. #1
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    Default 3rd Engine vs 95ft Quint by E-ONE

    My new company is looking to replace a piece. The initial talk with the new committee being formed, is to replace with almost a clone of another Engine in the house.

    The house has 3 Engines, will replace the oldest.

    Some people would like to see a Quint replace the unit.

    I had been on a purchasing committee in 02 for a 95 ft E-One Quint and we loved that piece.

    The first debate offered against the idea of a quint, is that there are other stations close by with aerials. However, they take time to get to a job. The counter to the debate, is ALL the mutual aid cos have 3 engines or more. So that is a dead debate.

    The community has built up over the last 10 years, and the 10 year projection to the community looks as strong as the previous 10 if not more. Additionally, there was recent discussion of a 4-story to be added, however the building commissioner stated our department could not protect (BS). Also, there is projected space saved for a new High School to be built in future years.

    I am a probationary member at the new house. I am trying to help people to think outside of the box and consider a Quint, and if not a Quint, a CAFS pumper.

    I have been an operator of a 95` E-One Quint since 2002, until I recently moved out of state from my old house.

    Can anyone help provide insight to me, to assist me to help the committee understand why a Quint would be a better long term investment vs. and 3rd engine. I dont want to say money is not an option, it is, however, the company will deal with the money issue if the understand this is truly a better purchase.

    I have brought up the issues of truck co ops, and venting roofs on truss roofs is now preferably done from an aerial device to protect the men.

    Finally, what are the requirements to have a Class -A rating on and Engine, and are there any ratings on Quints or Trucks with out water?

    My last Quint was set up as primarily Ladder ops secondary Suppression and third as a auxiliary Rescue.

    Thanks for any input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    My new company is looking to replace a piece. The initial talk with the new committee being formed, is to replace with almost a clone of another Engine in the house.

    The house has 3 Engines, will replace the oldest.

    Some people would like to see a Quint replace the unit.

    I had been on a purchasing committee in 02 for a 95 ft E-One Quint and we loved that piece.

    The first debate offered against the idea of a quint, is that there are other stations close by with aerials. However, they take time to get to a job. The counter to the debate, is ALL the mutual aid cos have 3 engines or more. So that is a dead debate.

    The community has built up over the last 10 years, and the 10 year projection to the community looks as strong as the previous 10 if not more. Additionally, there was recent discussion of a 4-story to be added, however the building commissioner stated our department could not protect (BS). Also, there is projected space saved for a new High School to be built in future years.

    I am a probationary member at the new house. I am trying to help people to think outside of the box and consider a Quint, and if not a Quint, a CAFS pumper.

    I have been an operator of a 95` E-One Quint since 2002, until I recently moved out of state from my old house.

    Can anyone help provide insight to me, to assist me to help the committee understand why a Quint would be a better long term investment vs. and 3rd engine. I dont want to say money is not an option, it is, however, the company will deal with the money issue if the understand this is truly a better purchase.

    I have brought up the issues of truck co ops, and venting roofs on truss roofs is now preferably done from an aerial device to protect the men.

    Finally, what are the requirements to have a Class -A rating on and Engine, and are there any ratings on Quints or Trucks with out water?

    My last Quint was set up as primarily Ladder ops secondary Suppression and third as a auxiliary Rescue.

    Thanks for any input.
    A few details are missing: MA or Auto aid,Area construction,Density,population,Water supply,other aerial devices in the area and how far out,etc. We run a 100' Quint,works VERY well for our needs but I can tell you Quints aren't for EVERYBODY.Speaking ONLY for my agency,a PROBIE doesn't have a very big say in what we buy. A voice,yes but a vote on what........NO. There are "Ratings"on ANY piece, you can look at ISO guidelines to see what and how they are rated. T.C.

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    I wasnt looking to become bashed for being a proby, if that was what you were leading to. I have put in my ties for 15+ years in a busy community in NJ prior to joining in a station in DE. My last 9 yrs were on the quint as interior-man or chauffeur. Quint ran first due to commercial, tax payers, multi-family (old folks homes, row homes, or apartments)

    Water- we have 2 engines with 1000 gallons ea. We have a TT tender with 6000 gallons. Some areas are hydranted, some are not. Areas not hydranted have auto dispatch for tender taskforce.

    Being a proby, I do not have access to CAD. These times are given are Approximate giving local. There are General Alarms (dual dispatch) and 2nd Alarms (when OIC calls for) there is a 75ft quint with a house with tight man-power that is about 20 min to the scene from a GA, on our East. There is a 100ft tower 25 min to the scene from a GA to our South. There is a 100ft straight stick quint 15 min to the scene to our North. These are approximate and from an initial General Alarm dispatch. Obviously 2nd alarm times would vary with time of dispatch.

    All the house mention have a minimum of 2 or more Class A engines. Most have 3.

    This extra time, would allow an engine co to take a royal beating without the structure being vented.

    An engine co, 2nd or third in, would still be hard pressed for manpower to set up a 30+ ft ground ladder and venting the house.

    We fill the box for most alarms, all pieces respond for most all calls.

    I understand, and am reading through ISO guidelines.

    I understand Quints are not for everyone.

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    First of all, be aware that ISO and NFPA standards do not always agree. Something NFPA is sticter, somethings ISO is stricter. Best to look at both when speccing a rig.

    I ride on a 75 foot quint at my career gig and there are plusses and minuses to this type of apparatus.

    Plusses:

    An aerial device.

    Its own stand alone firefighting capability.

    Minuses:

    The hosebed from most manufacturers is a compromise at best. The use of chutes, loading through a side compartment, loading around the turntable, and having to raise the aerial to load the hosebed. Yes I have heard of side stackers, you pay for that by losing compartment space, and the EHL hose bed from Smeal. They are not the norm from most manufactures and with that convenience comes less compartment space.

    Unless you go BIG, there is rarely enough room to carry all the truck and engine equipment that a seperate truck and engine would carry.

    In the career world, and in many volly/POC locations, STAFFING is an issue. If you really want to run it as a quint you need at least 6 people assigned to the rig for a call. The boss, 2 teams of 2, and a driver/operator. Otherwise it is either an engine (usually), or a truck, but not both.


    Good luck, but be careful not to crunch too many toes in your enthusiastic attempts to get them to buy a quint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    I wasnt looking to become bashed for being a proby, if that was what you were leading to. I have put in my ties for 15+ years in a busy community in NJ prior to joining in a station in DE. My last 9 yrs were on the quint as interior-man or chauffeur. Quint ran first due to commercial, tax payers, multi-family (old folks homes, row homes, or apartments)

    Water- we have 2 engines with 1000 gallons ea. We have a TT tender with 6000 gallons. Some areas are hydranted, some are not. Areas not hydranted have auto dispatch for tender taskforce.

    Being a proby, I do not have access to CAD. These times are given are Approximate giving local. There are General Alarms (dual dispatch) and 2nd Alarms (when OIC calls for) there is a 75ft quint with a house with tight man-power that is about 20 min to the scene from a GA, on our East. There is a 100ft tower 25 min to the scene from a GA to our South. There is a 100ft straight stick quint 15 min to the scene to our North. These are approximate and from an initial General Alarm dispatch. Obviously 2nd alarm times would vary with time of dispatch.

    All the house mention have a minimum of 2 or more Class A engines. Most have 3.

    This extra time, would allow an engine co to take a royal beating without the structure being vented.

    An engine co, 2nd or third in, would still be hard pressed for manpower to set up a 30+ ft ground ladder and venting the house.

    We fill the box for most alarms, all pieces respond for most all calls.

    I understand, and am reading through ISO guidelines.

    I understand Quints are not for everyone.
    Based on the Updated information,Yes, I think considering an aerial device or quint is in order. Didn't mean to rustle your feathers on being a Proby but there are a LOT of just turned proby from Explorers on here that think they should be making assignment decisions.My suggestion would be to make the Aerial 1st or second out not third.I'm presuming when you say replacing the third Engine you are speaking of the Rig itself not the dispatch order.Based on my years OTJ any aerial much further than 15 minutes out will have fun trying to find a place to operate. Of course that is HERE not NJ.Within 20 minutes I can have 3-5 aerials in town or within 5 minutes of town. The reason for the Auto aid question is it makes a HUGE difference in the Aerial/Quint game. Catch up never worked well. T.C.

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    15 to 20 min is an eternity waiting for a truck... Like Rescue said- If you plan on USING that truck as more than a manpower mover, it has to get there early.

    We managed to preserve most of the compartment space on our quint AND avoid the ladder-must-be-raised, bed-must-be-packed-just-so, fix-compartment-doors-every-time-you-lay-hose chute problem. The catch: it only holds 700' of 5". The supply bed is a simple strait bed between the driver's high sides, and the torque box. You also need a pole to push the hose under the turntable so the guy on top can grab it. With a bit of practice, that's not a major issue. With 2 engines, we don't usually need to lay a ton of hose with the quint, anyway.

    However, our district is almost all hydranted. Also, the quint is mainly designed for the village, and as an enhanced truck company. Cmpt space isn't an issue- there's plenty! A bit of thought put into using space wisely freed up plenty of cmpts. all 6 seats are scba seats, for example. hand tools are secured inside the cab, as are 4 spare air bottles ( in a nifty carousel on top of the dog house), the rest are in wheel well tubes. the diesel generator is located above the officers side forward outrigger, the booster reel is in the same spot on the drivers side. Cord reels are on the front bumper (with a trashline) and the rear corners- in what was dead space behind the access stairs. The 2 1/2" deadlay(400') takes up the 4th crosslay- which are pretty low to boot.

    We have sucessfully used this rig for both jobs simultaneously more than once. The key to this is simply to assign incoming manpower to whatever job needs done regardless of what type of truck they arrived on. Obviously, this works better in the volunteer/POC world, where members are not typically assigned to a specific company and function.

    A quint spotted close enough to the building to use it's aerial, is in easy range of it's preconnects as well. The pump (or aerial )can be operated by another driver- from one of the "manpower" rigs parked down the street, for example. And since all those tools and ladders are right there...

    If you're rated by the ISO, and have buildings that need a ladder, you are getting docked for not having one. There is a good source of funding in itself!

    Another good question: how much of your 1st due is readily accessable to a large apparatus with an aerial? If it's only going to be able to get to a few places, than it's probably not justifiable.

    And, as Fyred up said, try not to come on TOO strong as a new member. Keep making suggestions, and trying to help. Just avoid getting a bad rep as a pita know it all! ( at least until you've been there a while, lol)

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    Rescue, thank you. This is the type of input I was looking for.
    additionally, trust me, after 15 years in, and doing my share of hazing and bashing probys.... I know what kinda of scene I am in right now. I walk on thin ice. However, my mentor is the second chief, he and I are very tight, and I pass information through him.
    After 15 years, going another company, and thinking about proby, was a tough street to march down. In my new company, proby last for a full year!

    I like making the aerial first due, the reason behind that is the senior chauffeurs 'sometimes' get 'blinders' on and stop right in front of the scene, screwing the aerial.

    When I was an engine chauffeur, I liked pulling past the scene, so I, and the officer could get a view of 3 sides of the building before we even stop. This always left room for the aerial. I have been effed with this once, we did have to connect a high rise pack prior to second line entry. we were running 200' preconnects, I pulled to the other side of the house, and first line in was able to get to some of the fire, however radioed back for second crew to come in heavy on hose. It was a 'mc mansion' 5500sqft home, fire had extended to the second floor. The aerial was pulling up as we were hooking the high rise pack. We could have taken the preconnect off the quint, however, with 300 gallons of water, we decided it was faster to hook up the highrise, rather than pull 5" from quint back to engine and get water supply established. It was faster, and a good decision.

    I am a firm believer it venting as soon as engine crew is advancing on the fire. If we wait 15+ minutes for a MA aerial. The engine crew has taken a beating, the house is more likely to be a total loss. and you still have to add set-up time and everything.... so, you are looking at 22+ minutes until man is ready to cut on roof. TOO LONG!

    I had an E-One Quint Side Stacker 95ft HP I believe it was a Cyclone II with a Detroit 60 series, Allison EVS4000, 300 gallon water, set as a true quint + 1. We had a compartment set as an Auxiliary rescue tools, basic hurst for pops and cuts, no air bags not much cribbing. In case the Rescue was out on a hit, and we had a second hit, or for large scenes, we once had 7 cars and a TT scene was about 200 yards long... we called in MA for more hurst. However we had a rescue and our quint tower doing the critical pops.
    I liked the e-one over all manufactures for their rigid frame through out, the entire truck was a torque box, you can lift the entire truck off the ground completely, the stablizers had a 13'8" spread, if you could open the compartment doors, you could put the jacks down. From time you hit the Air brake, until ladder in the air was 1 min 2 seconds! Fast! Faster than any other rig in 2002.

    This is the type of input I like and appreciate big time. I am seasoned, however I know there are more people out here, with more experience and more knowledge. I am trying to fight an uphill battle from behind the scene, while walking on thin ice.

    Nozzel nut, you have got in plain an simple, most of what you described is how we operated

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    An engine co, 2nd or third in, would still be hard pressed for manpower to set up a 30+ ft ground ladder and venting the house.
    Not if that engine co was assigned truck duties.

    I have 2 engines in my station. They are assigned, on a call, as either truck or engine. All carry ladders that work for my area. Other station in town has a 105' TL. To be honest, most of our truck work is done with the aerial sitting in it's bed.

    With the amount of trees and power lines in the area...it's tough to get the ladder up in a lot of places.

    Tough decision for you. There is lots to consider. Good Luck.
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    \New Engine=350k-400k

    New Quint= 750k-900k

    As asked above, how much use is it going to get and what is the access.
    If it's all nice little paved developments with short setbacks then fine. If there all rural country dirt roads with long driveways and big setbacks then maybe not.

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    The small heart of the town, less than 1 sq mi is tight, right off the street, with some power line involvement.

    The more recent build up (last 10 year boom (minus the last 3 years of course)) is what some people refer to as 'mc mansions' roughly 2200-3800 sqft homes, with an average of a 45ft set back from curb. All underground utilities, and very few trees (premature trees at that). The homes have about a 4-6 foot exposed basement, with a standard 2 story construction with steep roofs. Making the distance from G2G (gutter to ground) 25-30ft. (important to know if you are throwing ground ladders at a 70` angle with 3-5 rungs above the gutter line)

    For the purpose of venting, most the time, a 95 ft platform could reach center roof shy of ridge, from the curb. Approximately less than 20 percent of homes, an aerial would probably need to be in the entrance of the driveway (which in my area are mostly concrete as opposed to asphalt). Additionally, we have no dirt roads, and no severe access restrictions to the best of my knowledge.

    As previously mentioned, money is not a determining factor for the new piece. Although we do not have a money tree, respectively, the return on investment and protection offered is more important to the initial cost.
    I am awaiting to receive a copy of the recent ISO report. Our community could benefit tremendously from a quint, if we dont 'need' one now, we will soon. With the addition of apartments, 55+ (age group) 4 story proposed buildings, (garage on the bottom and three stories of stick built apartments above, plus the roof) and a future High School.

    Mind you, with the 55+ 4 story. If you have a garage, then three stories of apartments, then a roof. Yikes, other than a few classes at the academy, I NEVER pulled a 40ft ladder with tormenting poles on a job. If I remember back to those classes, I believe it took a crew of 6 to put that ladder up; 2 base, 1 each tormentor, 2 walking the ladder up. Want to talk about spending man-power?

    With that being said, replacing a 3rd engine as a clone of the first, at a cost of 350-450k and then ADDING a quint at 700-900k in 3-5 years makes the purchase near 1.3mil.

    As mentioned in earlier posts (I think I mentioned it) we have two excellent pumpers and a rescue. Extraction on both pumpers as well as the rescue.

    So, replacing a 70something 3rd engine with a clone of the first engine, with yet another set of jaws, seems as not such a practical purchase compared with purchasing a Quint. Especially looking at the 5, 10 and 20 year projected growth of the community. With the elders understanding it is a matter of time until we finally purchase a quint.

    My question, am I being stubborn, am I not seeing a reason for replacing the third engine with a duplicate of the first? Do I have blinders on?

    If we had a quint with 300 gallons of water. Tender 6000 gallons roll second (simultaneously) with first piece out. Next 1st engine with 6 men, 1000 gallon of water, and 2nd engine with a crew of 5 with another 1000 gallons. I would suggest running quint first due, or second.



    Referring to another persons message. My previous company understood many people do not use the aerial as they though they would. We would make it a practice, to raise the tower on everything more than a R.A.C. (room and contents). It was great practice, we would use it more than most. It was more frequent to use the aerial than not. A few times they used the aerial for a CP. Yeah you heard right. On an accident scene with multi vehicles, spread out, with two in the woods. It gave the OIC a birds eye view of everything happening over a very large spread scene. Scene had multiple extractions.
    Operability of an aerial comes down to SOGs.

    We had run the aerial as FAST or RIT, however, the aerial was long to the scene, and was very impracticable in that situation due to access.


    With the past quint, we would have a minimum of chauffeur, officer, and MIN 2 pack men. With a confirmed job, we would usually have every seat filled, so 4 pack men, and two flip down seats. we would try to have a second operator in a flip down seat and an additional pack man in the other.

    We would get to the job, first men out both sides dropped back plates, second men out the door would drop first plates. 2 men and officer would grab appropriate tools and TIC for V.E.S below roof line; windows, floor above, floor below fire, extension.
    2 men, usually driver side would get saws and tools, rope bags and prepare for roof ops. and get in the bucket. Driver would put stabilizers down, then head to pump panel. Two bucket men would operate the tower from there.

    The additional jump seat (flip down) would work with establishing a water supply if needed and maybe jump on either crew. If potential of flowing water from aerial, the 3rd man would jump to the officers crew. Due to only having weight capacity of 2 men with master stream ops in bucket.

    If the last man on the truck (the last flip down seat) was there, he would run the turntable operations. chauffeur and this man would usually be trained similar and be inter-changeable.

    We had special shields on our helmets, blue shield would denote that you are truck trained, aerial trained, and were cleared to operate. If you didnt have a blue shield it was a clear discretion of officer if you could get on the truck. If there were enough blue shields to fill the truck, black shields were not permitted to ride.

    Usually, we would have all seat asignment fulfilled an operational within 2:15 on the scene, including water supply.

    The interior crew, or officer crew I referred to, if needed, would pull a pre-connect, not smaller than what has already in service. If V.E.S. was par, and truck was operating, officer crew would take third man, and would establish interior attack. If there was an engine company in operations on a large fire, and a 2 1/2 in service, the truck co would pull another 2 1/2 as assist. we had a rule, never pull a line smaller than what is in service, and also, Big Fire, Big water.

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    Maybe you need a truck, not a quint? Sounds like engines may be more readily had than a functional truck company? Why confuse the issue with a pump and hose? Can you're staffing allow proper turnout on both engines and a truck or is the quint idea part of a manpower shortage issue as well?

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    to be honest, I hate to say this, knowing many suffer man-power issues. After seeing we fill a box for an auto alarm, and seeing 31 pack men on a structure at 2am! Man-power seems cool.

    I was told by senior. Mr FD himself, they will NEVER buy a truck!

    So, if it is aerial, it must be set to quint. Yet we are still battling for the understanding of the necessity of a quint instead of the engine

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Maybe you need a truck, not a quint? Sounds like engines may be more readily had than a functional truck company? Why confuse the issue with a pump and hose? Can you're staffing allow proper turnout on both engines and a truck or is the quint idea part of a manpower shortage issue as well?
    Because WE can. Because it WORKS! Are you ever going to figure out the GATE to the City,or do I have to send Meehan AFTER you? T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    I am a firm believer it venting as soon as engine crew is advancing on the fire. If we wait 15+ minutes for a MA aerial. The engine crew has taken a beating, the house is more likely to be a total loss. and you still have to add set-up time and everything.... so, you are looking at 22+ minutes until man is ready to cut on roof. TOO LONG!
    Seriously, if you are WAITING for a ladder truck to do ventilation I would question the tactics of your fire department. Neither of my POC FDs has an aerial device, and the travel distance for a mutual aid ladder truck makes calling them, other than in the most extreme cases, completely impractical.

    In fact, in our entire county there are only 4 aerials and to get one here to our village would be a minimum of 20 to 30 minutes. We assign ventilation to one of our engine company crews and they either use our ground ladders, or hooks for horizontal vents.

    My point? Well, if I were your chief, or an educated fire board member, I would laugh at you saying "Are you seriously saying that without a ladder truck you can't ventilate? Because if that is your justification for needing a ladder truck it is ludicrous."

    I suggest you work harder at justifying a Quint, because even I couldn't support an aerial device if that was the sole, or major reason for justifying needing one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Because WE can. Because it WORKS! Are you ever going to figure out the GATE to the City,or do I have to send Meehan AFTER you? T.C.
    I know YOU can, but I like to see how many other can or should.

    I'm going out for shoulder surgery in October, so I may have some time, to say the least, though I might need a chauffeur for the first few weeks they tell me. Can you hook me up with a left sided shifter for a Chevy Tahoe?

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    merely a reason.

    I am working on other reasons.

    Show me good reasons not to.

    The size of homes I described, and proposed construction in the next 5yrs, utilizing an engine crew to vent with 32-40ft ground ladders chews up an ENTIRE engine crew for a minimum of 7 minutes.

    What is the relevance of 7 minutes? Disregard the time of discovery, the call in the dispatch, the respond to station, the respond to the scene. Which all adds up to a lot of time. 7 minutes of direct fire contact is what LAM beams, joist, and truss roofs can take, prior to becoming an extremely large risk of failure.

    Horizontal vent, is good for a kitchen fire or R.A.C. fire. when you have a larger volume of fire, tried an true, vertical vent in a roof is more efficient.

    So, that is just venting.

    Now, engine ops, (suppression)one of the ops of a quint, I am not going to compare Macintosh apples to granny smith. The only primary difference to engine ops off a quint vs an engine is approx 700 gallons of water, or 6 minutes with one 1 3/4. As previously mentioned, we have two other engines the role simultaneous with 1000 gallons each, and if we arent in the hydranted area we have 6000 TT tender 2nd due, with a tender task force AA (auto alerted, or auto alarmed).

    I was merely stating that Truck co ops primary function as I been trained is V.E.S. and a Quint effectively efficiently enables 4 pac and 1 officer to effictively do V.E.S in a much safer and expeditious manner without depleting man-power or energy level.

    And as mentioned. The company is open to the IDEA of a quint, the need more understanding of why we should be smart and buy a quint now for 990k, and not in 4 years AFTER they spend 450k on a THIRD engine that will be a clone of the first engine.

    Additionally, engines are of abundance in my community most cos have 3 engines.

    A properly outfitted Quint, with men trained, experienced, practiced, and well versed in Truck co, self rescue, RIT, advanced tactics, etc. Would be a more practical unit than just a 3rd engine in a sea of engines.

    there is a little more science behind just putting the wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Yes an engine co can vent, expelling man-power and time. Whats so bad about expelling the man-power and time. The interior engine crew takes a BEATING trying to get to the seat of the fire and extinguish it. Sometimes running into one or many obstacles.

    IF you can have two men in a tower, and on the roof within 3 minutes of arriving on scene, about the time it takes for an engine co to advance onto the fire, and they radio back stating they are at the seat, and the boys in the bucket go to make the cut. Thing go a lot smoother, the engine co can really darken down the fire, possibly use less water.

    Additionally, I have seen more house fires turn into foundation savers WITHOUT proper vertical ventilation.

    Remember, save property.

    Out fit smart, train like its the real thing, and be safe.

    If you are going to buy a quint eventually for 900 dont spend 450 first and make the total purchase 1.3mil

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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    merely a reason.

    I am working on other reasons.

    Show me good reasons not to.

    The size of homes I described, and proposed construction in the next 5yrs, utilizing an engine crew to vent with 32-40ft ground ladders chews up an ENTIRE engine crew for a minimum of 7 minutes.

    What is the relevance of 7 minutes? Disregard the time of discovery, the call in the dispatch, the respond to station, the respond to the scene. Which all adds up to a lot of time. 7 minutes of direct fire contact is what LAM beams, joist, and truss roofs can take, prior to becoming an extremely large risk of failure.

    Horizontal vent, is good for a kitchen fire or R.A.C. fire. when you have a larger volume of fire, tried an true, vertical vent in a roof is more efficient.

    So, that is just venting.

    Now, engine ops, (suppression)one of the ops of a quint, I am not going to compare Macintosh apples to granny smith. The only primary difference to engine ops off a quint vs an engine is approx 700 gallons of water, or 6 minutes with one 1 3/4. As previously mentioned, we have two other engines the role simultaneous with 1000 gallons each, and if we arent in the hydranted area we have 6000 TT tender 2nd due, with a tender task force AA (auto alerted, or auto alarmed).

    I was merely stating that Truck co ops primary function as I been trained is V.E.S. and a Quint effectively efficiently enables 4 pac and 1 officer to effictively do V.E.S in a much safer and expeditious manner without depleting man-power or energy level.

    And as mentioned. The company is open to the IDEA of a quint, the need more understanding of why we should be smart and buy a quint now for 990k, and not in 4 years AFTER they spend 450k on a THIRD engine that will be a clone of the first engine.

    Additionally, engines are of abundance in my community most cos have 3 engines.

    A properly outfitted Quint, with men trained, experienced, practiced, and well versed in Truck co, self rescue, RIT, advanced tactics, etc. Would be a more practical unit than just a 3rd engine in a sea of engines.

    there is a little more science behind just putting the wet stuff on the red stuff.

    Yes an engine co can vent, expelling man-power and time. Whats so bad about expelling the man-power and time. The interior engine crew takes a BEATING trying to get to the seat of the fire and extinguish it. Sometimes running into one or many obstacles.

    IF you can have two men in a tower, and on the roof within 3 minutes of arriving on scene, about the time it takes for an engine co to advance onto the fire, and they radio back stating they are at the seat, and the boys in the bucket go to make the cut. Thing go a lot smoother, the engine co can really darken down the fire, possibly use less water.

    Additionally, I have seen more house fires turn into foundation savers WITHOUT proper vertical ventilation.

    Remember, save property.

    Out fit smart, train like its the real thing, and be safe.

    If you are going to buy a quint eventually for 900 dont spend 450 first and make the total purchase 1.3mil
    Look, I am not telling you that you shouldn't try for a quint. But to say you WAIT for a ladder company to vent makes you look foolish. Sorry to be so harsh, but it is true. Also, if you have 31 guys for a structure fire, and 3 engines you have PLENTY of people to throw ladders. So, enough with that nonsense of not having the personnel to do it.

    If it takes more than 3 guys to put up a 32-40 foot ladder, and 7 minutes to do it, maybe some ladder drills are in order. If you don't feel safe operating on the roof on a roof ladder do the next best thing, set up at the gable end and pop the vent or cut a hole as close to the peak as possible. Perfect answer? Nope, but it does get you vertical venting and can and does alleviate conditions inside.

    Again, good luck on getting a quint, but I simply can't get past you saying you WAIT for a ladder truck to vertically vent. Or that throwing ground ladders takes too long or is labor intensive when you say you have 31 guys showing up for a structure fire. My career FD responds on the initial call with an engine, a quint, a ladder truck, and a med unit, for a grand total of 13 guys and we manage to pull hoselines, throw ladders, vent if needed, and do search. Is it tough while you are waiting for first alarm companies to arrive? Yep, and sometimes you have to prioritize. But we don't wait for anything or anyone to get to work.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    3 story building...fire on first floor.....roof vent is really a priority?

    My guess with all your expected construction is that it will be light weight trusses....very unsafe for FFs working on that. Working from the bucket....much better. That can be some reasoning.


    Side question....with all this new construction going on....are you guys fighting and pushing for sprinklered buildings?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    The small heart of the town, less than 1 sq mi is tight, right off the street, with some power line involvement.

    The more recent build up (last 10 year boom (minus the last 3 years of course)) is what some people refer to as 'mc mansions' roughly 2200-3800 sqft homes, with an average of a 45ft set back from curb. .
    2200 -3800 sq ft barely constitutes a camp up here

    The true definition of a MC Mansion is a 5-8000 sq. ft weekend palace with a 400 to 2000 ft driveway built off of a long narrow single lane road that is inaccessible to all but a small nimble short wheelbase engine. Most of these have gardens and exotic landscaping that make the closest point of approach as much as 300 feet from the driveway
    Don't have much need for an aerial here

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    2200 -3800 sq ft barely constitutes a camp up here

    The true definition of a MC Mansion is a 5-8000 sq. ft weekend palace with a 400 to 2000 ft driveway built off of a long narrow single lane road that is inaccessible to all but a small nimble short wheelbase engine. Most of these have gardens and exotic landscaping that make the closest point of approach as much as 300 feet from the driveway
    Don't have much need for an aerial here
    Sounds like you need one of these.......
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    Yikes! Okay! sounds crappy to me. Sorry. For where this town was 10 years ago, trailer parks, small 1400 sg ft ranches, and a few Victorian farm houses, to developments of 200+ homes, with gutter to ground distances of 28+ feet.
    So I guess in comparison from the 10 years ago, to today, to the 10 year projection, I guess that is where they came to use the term mc mansions.





    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    2200 -3800 sq ft barely constitutes a camp up here

    The true definition of a MC Mansion is a 5-8000 sq. ft weekend palace with a 400 to 2000 ft driveway built off of a long narrow single lane road that is inaccessible to all but a small nimble short wheelbase engine. Most of these have gardens and exotic landscaping that make the closest point of approach as much as 300 feet from the driveway
    Don't have much need for an aerial here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    3 story building...fire on first floor.....roof vent is really a priority?

    My guess with all your expected construction is that it will be light weight trusses....very unsafe for FFs working on that. Working from the bucket....much better. That can be some reasoning.


    Side question....with all this new construction going on....are you guys fighting and pushing for sprinklered buildings?
    This is what we are reading. I have read up on about 15 truck co ops SOGs nation wide, state that if a structure has burned for greater than 7 minutes and is truss construction, their SOGs call for venting from aerial device ONLY.

    Also, I watched a video of side by side mock-ups of a truss construction roof vs a stick construction roof. Both were run in-direct contact, than direct contact of fire. Truss shows signs of structural damage with 5-7 minutes.

    And again, LAM beams and joist. Fast burners.

    I was discussing safety for the men.

    And it isnt just the projection construction type. It has been the norm in this community for the past 10 years. I would GUESSTIMATE that 55-65% of all residential structures in this town are truss roofs. There has been a lot of developments pop up on farm land in the last 10 years.

    Great side question.... As of this time, I do not have any information. However, being a construction manager from NY/NJ working in conjunction with the UCC, and coming down here and looking an construction, makes me SCARED! I never have seen any building like this. It was explained that the communities just adopted the ICC as opposed to the UCC. Which would explain why my stairs make me feel like im in a old home it london. My stair treads are 6.25" deep, as opposed to the 8.75". I am trying to nose around and find out about sprinklers for multi family, stick construction. I havent done enough digging yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Maybe you need a truck, not a quint? Sounds like engines may be more readily had than a functional truck company? Why confuse the issue with a pump and hose? Can you're staffing allow proper turnout on both engines and a truck or is the quint idea part of a manpower shortage issue as well?
    Can you describe the benefit to have a truck over a quint? My understanding is if the men are trained, and practiced the same, then the vehicle they work off of, whether it has a pump and hoses or not makes no difference. However, having come from a company that bought a quint tower in 02 and making it first run like previously mentioned, you have the water if need be to make initial attack.

    I may not see the bigger issue, and I am open to listen (or read), what are the benefits of going true truck with no water?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Look, I am not telling you that you shouldn't try for a quint. But to say you WAIT for a ladder company to vent makes you look foolish. Sorry to be so harsh, but it is true. Also, if you have 31 guys for a structure fire, and 3 engines you have PLENTY of people to throw ladders. So, enough with that nonsense of not having the personnel to do it.

    If it takes more than 3 guys to put up a 32-40 foot ladder, and 7 minutes to do it, maybe some ladder drills are in order. If you don't feel safe operating on the roof on a roof ladder do the next best thing, set up at the gable end and pop the vent or cut a hole as close to the peak as possible. Perfect answer? Nope, but it does get you vertical venting and can and does alleviate conditions inside.
    Sir, I am not trying to make myself sound like a dumb *****, but I have re-read a few of my posts, where did I state we WAIT for aerials to do a vent? Do you mean where I refer back to the engine crew to be at the seat of the fire and radio to ops to radio to roof to make the cut?

    I try to speak as accurately as possible, and if I am doing something to make myself look stupid, I want to correct it. I am new here, and this is my first week posting. Additionally, sometimes, as I am thinking, it isnt always conveyed in my typing.

    I am here to interact with you all, to learn from a diverse crowd with varying experience, and I most certainly can take criticism, respectfully.

    I want you all to open my eyes, I admit, I can be blind to things in front of me, it take a big man to admit that, but a bigger to learn from it.

    Also, last eve, as we toured a few pieces, and had some discussions, a simple count, out of about 5 towns there is a supply of better than 16 engines with 4 aerials.

    Its not about feeling SAFE, it is a safe practice, so we dont end up on the LODD list. My primary role outside FD is construction management and Safety. It is my obligation to abate hazards on a construction site, to have no loss time work injuries.

    We do not expose men to greater risks to save minimal stuff. However, if we can protect our men from injury, we will protect people and property more effectively.

    We do plenty of ladder drills with ground ladders. IF you dont believe it takes up to 7 minutes to put up a 32-40 with tormentor poles, go to your academy, run an evolution, let the senior guys stand back, and you stand there with a stop watch. You would be surprised at the numbers, when it is you timing the events. in TRAINING scenarios, more times, the suppression crew was knocking down the fire, before the Truckie engine men had the ladder set and were on the roof pulling the saw up.

    Also, a 40ft with tormentor poles, they train the guys out of the academy to put up a 40fter with 6 men. can it be done with less, sure, is it safer to do with less? are you exposing your men to possible injury or mishap?

    I am not talking about "feeling unsafe" I am talking about putting men a greater risk and exposure then necessary.

    And to all, I dont take any of this as bashing or being harsh or whatever, I respect input. and I am very open, to having my eyes opened more. 15 years in, and I still am learning everyday.

    Yet, no body has come forth with a reason why NOT to go Quint in favor or a 3rd engine duplicating the 1st engine.
    Last edited by oper77; 09-14-2011 at 08:14 AM.

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    Thank you for all the input on this topic so far.

    As of last night, I will be given access to CAD, a county map with district-ing layout, and each company's apparatus list as well as a copy of the last ISO rating report. These will allow me to have more valuable information related to the community's true needs.

    Back to the original question, Should a company replace a 1970s 3rd engine with a duplicate of the 1st engine? Taking out the account of money. OR, if the need be present, and the man-power and training is available, would a Quint be a better ROI?

    Spin off of the question, does any one house, have a clone of an engine or truck or rescue? What are the benefits to having two of the same piece?

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