Which Engine to Purchase

[firepundit]

Could not agree more

Perhaps they have already evaluated the dealers and warranty issues? They might be farther in the process than we are aware.

[fireinfo10]

It was a central states body, & NO they were not low bidder by a long shot.They actually came in next to high bid and not responsive to several parts of the spec.
We don't have a problem with Central States as we have a 91 engine they built which has held up very well for us.

Rosey purchased Central and General a few years ago. Both were old respected builders. General builds spec trucks with extruded bodies and builds the bodies for Rosey aerials (still good quality stuff).

A 1991 Central iis pre-Rosey. The old Central built some nice trucks. Find and look at some recent units against ______ other major brand. Centrla will be the low bidder (or should be). The Yugo end of the market. A recent program/demo pumper in my area - Right rear compartment electical panel - plastic terminal block, wiring labeled with masking tape and magic marker. Impressive.

If a spec truck Central would be any better quality I don't know.

I'd never buy an thing other than an extruded body so that is my start point.

[LVFD301]

http://www.southernfireservice.com/

We have KME, KME, and the above company. (and three ex military home made rigs)

Southern was pretty good to deal with, but they really shined when it came to warranty. I had a small air leak in an auxillary line, called them in the afternoon, they told me to use whoever I would like and have them send the bill to them.

I did, they did, and it was repaired 12 hours later.

(incidently, it was our local (115 miles away) KME dealer that took care of it)

[LVFD301]

Oh, and get everything, even conversations during construction in written form! No matter how much you trust them, memories are not always good.

[islandfire03]

Rosey purchased Central and General a few years ago. Both were old respected builders. General builds spec trucks with extruded bodies and builds the bodies for Rosey aerials (still good quality stuff).

A 1991 Central iis pre-Rosey. The old Central built some nice trucks. A recent program/demo pumper in my area - Right rear compartment electical panel - plastic terminal block, wiring labeled with masking tape and magic marker. Impressive.
.

You are correct ours is pre Rosy days. I have seen a couple since being bought out and they are still pretty well built. Nothing fancy,but not falling apart ,bent tool boxes either.

That's the kind of issue that should have been rectified at final inspection.
We spec that ALL wires will be marked at both ends and every 12" along the run for identification with permanent marking numbers in addition to color coding, That way if a problem occurs you can open up a loom and trace any wire.

[Rescue101]

Rosey purchased Central and General a few years ago. Both were old respected builders. General builds spec trucks with extruded bodies and builds the bodies for Rosey aerials (still good quality stuff).

A 1991 Central iis pre-Rosey. The old Central built some nice trucks. Find and look at some recent units against ______ other major brand. Centrla will be the low bidder (or should be). The Yugo end of the market. A recent program/demo pumper in my area - Right rear compartment electical panel - plastic terminal block, wiring labeled with masking tape and magic marker. Impressive.

If a spec truck Central would be any better quality I don't know.

I'd never buy an thing other than an extruded body so that is my start point.

If you are looking for a LOW price and know little to nothing about speccing a Firetruck,there are any number of horror stories out there. As I said earlier,we have three Rosie CS Engines ranging fron 96ish to 2004. NO issues with fit and finish. And we're not doing 3K runs a year but the roads around here leave something to be desired so it balances out. You like extruded bodies,others prefer other construction methods. One of the better bodies I've seen around here is a Luvene(now Crimson)BOLTED SS. VERY nicely done. T.c.

[oper77]

Guys, I am appreciating this input greatly!

I have purchased and ebook and google books, by a guy I used to know, now retired J.C. NJ. Battalion Chief. William C. Peters, Fire Apparatus Purchasing Handbook, , great read, with great info. Some of the photos depicted in the book are of my old sister company and by a brother, and mentor in the service.

Small world.

I recommend anyone purchasing, should read this book, and take the advise of everything posted in this forum so far. So much invaluable information.

THANK YOU

[gunnyv]

I would love to see Crimson, Toyne, etc bid on the rig we are speccing. But they don't have service centers or dealers within 100 miles. The ones who are close are Pierce, Smeal, Rosenbauer, Seagrave, Sutphen, Spencer, and Ferrara. We do not have our own maintenance dept, so warranty service means the rig has to go back to the dealer for major work. With a limited number of spare rigs, we can't have the service center too far away. Our spec calls for 60 miles.

I wish I had more options. Two of the dealers are new and have no track record for sales or service. One of the companies sold us two engines that were junk, so they will not be considered. Our most recent rigs were stock models from another, so their dealer thinks he's got the inside track with the Chief on price and won't bother working with us. One of the salesmen I've dealt with should be a used car salesman, another is a kid who doesn't know anything. All in all, not real impressed with the folks I'm dealing with.

[chiefengineer11]

I would love to see Crimson, Toyne, etc bid on the rig we are speccing. But they don't have service centers or dealers within 100 miles. The ones who are close are Pierce, Smeal, Rosenbauer, Seagrave, Sutphen, Spencer, and Ferrara. We do not have our own maintenance dept, so warranty service means the rig has to go back to the dealer for major work. With a limited number of spare rigs, we can't have the service center too far away. Our spec calls for 60 miles.

I wish I had more options. Two of the dealers are new and have no track record for sales or service. One of the companies sold us two engines that were junk, so they will not be considered. Our most recent rigs were stock models from another, so their dealer thinks he's got the inside track with the Chief on price and won't bother working with us. One of the salesmen I've dealt with should be a used car salesman, another is a kid who doesn't know anything. All in all, not real impressed with the folks I'm dealing with.

I put in an earlier post the fact that since there was no Toyne dealer near us, we were able to direct them to a well known and respected local fire apparatus repair shop. They, in turn, were able to come together on an agreement to do warranty and any other service our Toyne and any others that appear in the area (several have, more to come). By the way, where's Allendale from you?

[gunnyv]

Allendale is almost 200 miles, so no dice there. Every apparatus repair shop in our area-at least that I'm aware of-is a dealer. I doubt that they will like the idea of servicing a truck we buy from someone else, or go through the trouble of setting up such an agreement. I hope I'm wrong. Other than the shop distance, there are no other factors in our spec precluding them from a bid.

[SCOOBY14B]

Just my 2 cents:

We have 32 of a "3 letter manufacturer" all delivered in the last 3-4 years...hopefully NO MORE!!

[FWDbuff]

Allendale is almost 200 miles, so no dice there. Every apparatus repair shop in our area-at least that I'm aware of-is a dealer. I doubt that they will like the idea of servicing a truck we buy from someone else, or go through the trouble of setting up such an agreement. I hope I'm wrong. Other than the shop distance, there are no other factors in our spec precluding them from a bid.

So work a deal with Toyne (OR WHOEVER!!!! Remember- "airtight spec" read my previous post) to have a local truck shop make repairs. The Cummins, Cat or Detroit house for driveline trouble. Pump dealer takes care of pump issues, etc. Work the spec so that the MANUFACTURER handles warranty issues, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Then it's up to THEM to pay the bill, and argue with whoever later. Worked beautifully with us and Toyne (closest Toyne shop 400 miles away.)

[RFDACM02]

So work a deal with Toyne (OR WHOEVER!!!! Remember- "airtight spec" read my previous post) to have a local truck shop make repairs. The Cummins, Cat or Detroit house for driveline trouble. Pump dealer takes care of pump issues, etc. Work the spec so that the MANUFACTURER handles warranty issues, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. Then it's up to THEM to pay the bill, and argue with whoever later. Worked beautifully with us and Toyne (closest Toyne shop 400 miles away.)

This is the same thing we started out with. A FD near us had 2 Toynes and had been very pleased with that same arrangement, which gave us the confidence to do the same. As it were, Toyne entered into a contract for service with a local shop (another large dealer) for service work. We had no issues with who was doing or paying what, though they ended up parting ways, we still haven't seen any negatives of our original deal.

[oper77]

Just my 2 cents:

We have 32 of a "3 letter manufacturer" all delivered in the last 3-4 years...hopefully NO MORE!!

Contact me. I would like to know more

[fireinfo10]

I would love to see Crimson, Toyne, etc bid on the rig we are speccing. But they don't have service centers or dealers within 100 miles. The ones who are close are Pierce, Smeal, Rosenbauer, Seagrave, Sutphen, Spencer, and Ferrara. We do not have our own maintenance dept, so warranty service means the rig has to go back to the dealer for major work. With a limited number of spare rigs, we can't have the service center too far away. Our spec calls for 60 miles.

I wish I had more options. Two of the dealers are new and have no track record for sales or service. One of the companies sold us two engines that were junk, so they will not be considered. Our most recent rigs were stock models from another, so their dealer thinks he's got the inside track with the Chief on price and won't bother working with us. One of the salesmen I've dealt with should be a used car salesman, another is a kid who doesn't know anything. All in all, not real impressed with the folks I'm dealing with.

The other major brand dealers don't have mobile service? Certainly the norm in my area. And a typical bid requirement. Or the dealer contracts with an independent apparatus repair firm (including warranty work).

Very little in the relm of "normal" that can't be done in you station. An experienced trained mechanic with appropriate tools is all that is required. And his mileage cost is less than your cost to drive an apparatus. Major parts, when required, are typically going to have to be ordered in regardless of where the service work is performed.

[chiefengineer11]

The other major brand dealers don't have mobile service? Certainly the norm in my area. And a typical bid requirement. Or the dealer contracts with an independent apparatus repair firm (including warranty work).

Very little in the relm of "normal" that can't be done in you station. An experienced trained mechanic with appropriate tools is all that is required. And his mileage cost is less than your cost to drive an apparatus. Major parts, when required, are typically going to have to be ordered in regardless of where the service work is performed.

Point well made, there. One of the reasons I like to hold maintenance and repair work in house as much as possible is, absent an OOS breakdown, the vehicle is down only for the length of time it's actually being worked on. Ditto if you bring someone in. If it has to go away to a shop, it's usually gone for the day, at least.

[gunnyv]

The other major brand dealers don't have mobile service? Certainly the norm in my area. And a typical bid requirement. Or the dealer contracts with an independent apparatus repair firm (including warranty work).

Very little in the relm of "normal" that can't be done in you station. An experienced trained mechanic with appropriate tools is all that is required. And his mileage cost is less than your cost to drive an apparatus. Major parts, when required, are typically going to have to be ordered in regardless of where the service work is performed.

Yes, some of the local dealers have mobile service. In fact, we will require it in our spec. Some are "all purpose, all brand" apparatus shops that do maintenance on anything, anywhere, and currently work on our fleet. But we've never had a rig that wasn't purchased through one of them.

Unfortunately, many of our warranty issues have been with suspensions or water tanks, requiring the truck to be put on a lift or the tank accessed. When you run an apparatus 15K miles a year on Michigan roads, you're going to shake things loose. Part of that has to do with a rig with IFS with proprietary parts, another has to do with bargain spec rigs the previous chief bought off the lot.

As previously stated, my concern is that the local shops, which all represent other apparatus manufacturers, will not be interested in providing warranty service for another maker. I'm going to contact the reps for Toyne and a couple other dealers in that position and determine their interest in jumping through the hoops to work with us.

[GTRider245]

Just my 2 cents:

We have 32 of a "3 letter manufacturer" all delivered in the last 3-4 years...hopefully NO MORE!!

Beat the commercial cabs though don't they?

Haha...