Thread: Sutphen

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    Default Sutphen

    Any comments on the Sutphen brand? I've heard a few complaints about electical issues and was looking for anyone that operates one. Also any problems, pros, cons that you wish to comment? Also does anyone know if it is an option to spray a ''bedliner like coating'' in the cab vs. vinyl?

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    Although I don't operate a Sutphen, I've been around their products for years, and have been to the factory before. I wouldn't hesitate to operate their product - great fit and finish, really good build practices, and tons of repeat customers.

    As for the Line-X in the cab, don't do it!! While it's tough, it's hell on exposed skin! I know of one department that did it on five pumpers from another manufacturer, and hows vowed never to do it again after the complaints they got from the members riding those rigs.
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    You can find complaints about specific items with any manufacturer. I sold Pierce for 10 years and they certainly had their share of recurring problems.

    If you are really interested contact some Sutphen customers. Your local dealer or the factory can supply with names and phone numbers. I do know that Syracuse, NY, Hartford, Ct and Orlando, Fla pretty much use all Sutphens.

    Sutphen does seem to have a very loyal customer base so that must say something for the product.

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    Quote Originally Posted by townshipmedic View Post
    Any comments on the Sutphen brand? I've heard a few complaints about electical issues and was looking for anyone that operates one. Also any problems, pros, cons that you wish to comment? Also does anyone know if it is an option to spray a ''bedliner like coating'' in the cab vs. vinyl?
    I have competed with them over the years and find they are a very good company. You certainly could do worse. If the dealer is worth his salt, you will be in good hands.

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    We have 2 Sutphen engines at my station. One is a 1980 and one is a 1994. Both have been very reliable!! One thing that stands out about Sutphen is their service department... in my opinion.

    I called them 2 weeks ago about a part that had broken on the 32 year old truck's pump panel. Their parts department answered in two rings and I told them what I needed. They said to give them a day or two to find it. I figured there was a slim chance of getting the parts I needed. The parts guy called back the next day and said the parts I needed were in the mail. Two days later they were on our doorstep.

    Total cost of the parts... $30.
    Standing by your product.. priceless!!

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    I've enjoyed my interactions that I've had with them. The rescue pumper that we just purchased was our 5th unit from them spanning a time frame beginning in 1989. 2 aerials and 3 pumpers for a not real big suburban department, so you can say we've been satisfied.

    As far as electrical issues go, I don't recall many that haven't been the result of something somebody at the firehouse installed after the fact that wasn't quite up to the correct methods. The 93 twin pumpers that we have (had, 1 just got sold) have been fine, with nothing more than the usual quirkiness that beholds a truck that old.

    As for the Line-X, one option that is out there is having the doghouse, etc. coated in the paint Zolatone. While at the plant on pre-build, we saw a Syracuse aerial that had that done, and it seemed very durable. The only downside to it remains that the cab is noisier than with the vinyl and insulation covering the doghouse. With that, we were able to forgo headsets in the cab because it became very quiet.

    It's been 9 months since we took delivery, and while the new rig has had a few hiccups here and there with small stuff, it's performed wonderfully and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I still have my build engineer's email and he's answered any question I've had after delivery.

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    Previous department had 2 Sutphen engines and a Sutphen quint when I left in 2002. They have since purchased 2 more engines.

    I have no issues. Nice ride, reliable and at least while I was there, no significant mechanical issues.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-27-2011 at 12:51 PM.
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    Our 1993 Stuphen Engine, runs just as good today as it did when it was new. Great rig. Would not bat an eye if we get a chance to buy a new one. Nothing runs like a Sutphen!
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    Default Relegated to reserve

    Our Sutphen heavy duty usually occupies the rear half of the middle bay (reserve position) and is generally parked behind a 1979 Mack CF. It holds this position because of the cab design and the decision to put a 3208 CAT lashed to a 1750 Watrous. The extra width of the CAT required a wider than normal dog-house, and as a result the larger drivers must slam the door shut with some degree of force to wedge our posteriors between the door and dog-house. There is very little room for your legs and feet and on a long run it becomes quite uncomfortable. I was once detailed to take this rig to a LODD at Erie and spent a very uncomfortable day running the 3 hrs each way.
    The second problem, (more serious) is the Class 1 pressure governor and the reaction time for the large CAT when providing water to the hand lines. Typical spike pressues on the lines still operating climb well over 300 psi when a working line is shut down. (We run 180 psi on preconnects) As a result, we found it necessary to install a relief valve as well as the pressure governor. This makes a very nice rig for pump training, but also requires well trained operators to avoid the two systems fighting each other. When working large industrial fires with high flow requirements (like feeding an aerial) this engine out-performs everything in the fleet except the 94 Pierce with a 3176 Cat and 2,000 gpm Watrous. Would we buy another one? NO, but when you have high flow requirements, I would take it before the KME's, Mack, or Pierce for performance and safety.

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    We've run their aerials for almost 30 years and nothing else. We haven't bought any Sutphen engines since 1991, but that was because of money. We hope to one day return to them for engines as well.

    We currently have 8 SP95's, 4 SPH100's, and 2 SL75's. I personally DO NOT like the SPH, but the SP's are awesome!!

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    Scooby-I'm just curious. What don't you like about the SPH aerial?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    Scooby-I'm just curious. What don't you like about the SPH aerial?
    It's a VERY poor ride with the short wheel base, poor departure angle, DO NOT like all the electronic controls for the outriggers.

    It's definitely got it's niche, just not with us.

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    Scooby,

    Any problems with the cables popping in the SPH? There is a department around us that is having a bad problem with it on their tower. FYI, Savannah just purchased one, I'm not sure how the tailswing is going to work in the downtown area, might be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chief60 View Post
    Scooby,

    Any problems with the cables popping in the SPH? There is a department around us that is having a bad problem with it on their tower. FYI, Savannah just purchased one, I'm not sure how the tailswing is going to work in the downtown area, might be interesting.
    Not that I am aware of. We only had an SPH for about 3 months while our SP-95 was down for some work. The four we have are now in service in companies that we never run with. The only things I particularly like about the SPH are 1)The a/c worked MUCH better than our SP, 2)The bucket is very roomy, and 3)The hydraulics are crazy fast.

    We have had the cable popping issue on our SP at times, but usually it has been found that it is due to our shop personnel over tightening them during service.
    Last edited by SCOOBY14B; 10-02-2011 at 03:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chief60 View Post
    Any problems with the cables popping in the SPH? There is a department around us that is having a bad problem with it on their tower. FYI, Savannah just purchased one, I'm not sure how the tailswing is going to work in the downtown area, might be interesting.
    Have the Dept. check the ladder guide plates (slides) as well as the ladder for lubrication. As well, have them check the tension on the cables (or their maintenance people). I've seen on a volly dept. that they had what they thought were cables popping, to find that the slides were dry and the ladder dry and dirty. After a few hours cleaning and lubing, it stopped, and moved quicker and quitter.

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    We run a 2005 70+ Quint, the only problem we have had is with the Hale Pump.

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    We have 2 Sutphen pumpers, a 2005 and a 2006. Unfortunately, they were standard Shield models bought "off the lot". We were not allowed to write a spec, so they are missing many of the options we are accustomed to. Despite that, they have been reliable rigs except for the suspensions and some electrical lighting issues.

    Turning radius is horrible. The ride is stiff and brutal. It feels like every pothole is transmitted through to your spine. One rig is slightly better after removing one of the leaf springs from each side, the other is waiting for the same modification. Between our roads and our run volume, this issue has really soured the members on these rigs. Several, including me, have gone to the clinic for back pain after riding the rig for a full shift. One guy gets regular shots in his spine for pain after being assigned to this company for 3 years.

    Obviously, these are issues with our maintenance program and leadership more than the rig-the rig could be modified if they would just take care of the problem. I would recommend an IFS or carefully specifying suspension components if you buy a Sutphen.
    Last edited by gunnyv; 10-14-2011 at 01:03 PM. Reason: more info

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    Our department had a 1980 SP95 that was replaced in 2002 with essentially an updated version of our 80. The 2002 has a Cummins ISM 450 with a 1,500 gpm Hale Qmax.

    KuhShise, like you I'm in the big boy league but I can't complain about the area beside the dog house. Even responding in bunker gear. It's snug but not tight in the drivers seat. Although I'm a loyal Hale fan I dislike the Class 1 pressure governor. If we replaced the Class 1 with a FRC I'd be real happy.

    SCOOBY14B, I've been on, but never responded with, a couple SPH100's and really liked them. The thing I disliked about the SP's is the bucket design and I thought the SPH's were great. Thought it really improved the Sutphen line.

    We also have a 1983 engine. It was a demo unit and the department requested extra leaf springs which makes it ride rough. Cummins engine with a 1,500 gpm Hale pump. Other than the 2.5" intakes being in compartment I can't complain about the truck. It runs (down the road and pumping) like a Cheetah on crack! One of my favorite rigs. It was recently bumped to front line a few months ago and works good. Only thing newer trucks have on it is the newer upgrades like generator and NFPA updates.

    Between the three trucks our department has operated Sutphen's for almost 60 years and can't complain about the quality. Regardless of if members will admit it or not Sutphen is the standard our other apparatus are measured against. We've replaced a couple engines that Sutphen had a shot at but due to one reason or another they didn't get the nod.

    Besides the fact that they build a great product, one of the main reasons I like Sutphen is due to the customer service. I really wish other builders were to that standard. I'll site two examples.

    Few years ago we were preparing to pump test our 2002 SP95, hit the primer button and blew the fuse. Dead in the water from the turn table up. Looked but there wasn't one in town. Called Sutphen and the receptionist said they would call back. Got a call while driving down the road. Had the passenger talk and he was told it was something the chassis plant would handle. We were three blocks from the station. I'm backing into the station when the phone rings again, it's the chassis plant. We had the part, and a spare, the next day.

    Last year we had Sutphen out doing the routine yearly inspection. Tech was new but though he felt a "buckle" in the yoke on the bucket. We looked and saw where it appeared the monitor chipped a brick turning out of the station. Ordered a new yoke and had it delivered for $15K. Before we started replacement an experienced tech from Sutphen came out and looked at the truck. When the original tech spoke to him and said what he found after the inspection the answers provided weren't satisfactory to the experienced tech so he came out. There was nothing wrong with the yoke even though it appears the monitor contacted the pillar. The truck was given a clean bill of health and the replacement yoke was sent back. Cost to the department, $0. Loyalty created, priceless.

    There are many companies that build apparatus and some do a great job but in my opinion there is Sutphen and everyone else. Just my views.

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    Hey Walt, long time no see. How you been Brother.

    We had spec'ed out a 75 stick the first of this year. I was pushing hard for a Sutphen. You just can't beat their 3 to 1 safety ratio (got to love the huckbolts). Plus Sutphen has the easiest ladder to maintain on the marker, hands down. But. . . . . . . . . the lowest bidder won, and we will be taking delivery of a tandem axle 75' straight stick HME!

    In short spec your out your truck the right way so you don't get stuck with something you really don't want.
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    Bull


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    We had an early 80's Sutphen pumper, and it was solid as a rock. Other than that big step getting into the cab, it was a good apparatus, and it's still in service in a small burg in a neighboring county.
    Then, we bought 3 identical pumpers in 2004. Can't say that these 3 have been stellar performers. They have FoamPro systems on them that are unreliable. The foam system doesn't work, take the truck to fleet maintenance, the foam system gets worked on. The company takes it back, next shift does a test run on the apron and it works OK, but the next time it is needed, it doesn't work. We replace circuit boards and other parts regularly. These pumpers also have a PTO/hydraulic generator on them. One has not been reliable for years because, get this, it gets water in it. You would think that it goes without saying that a fire engine is gonna be wet. Oh well.
    I believe that the problems with these three pumpers is a result of a very simply issue. We awarded the bid to Sutphen because they were the low bid. The spec we used was not familiar to Sutphen, and was not based upon what they normally build. I firmly believe that if we had designed out spec around what Sutphen normally does, these three pumpers would be more reliable. The guys who went to the pre construction bid stated that as the Sutphen people and our people went page by page through the spec, the Sutphen guys were scratching their heads trying to understand what is was that they were going to have to build. Not a good sign......

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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    Our Sutphen heavy duty usually occupies the rear half of the middle bay (reserve position) and is generally parked behind a 1979 Mack CF. It holds this position because of the cab design and the decision to put a 3208 CAT lashed to a 1750 Watrous. The extra width of the CAT required a wider than normal dog-house, and as a result the larger drivers must slam the door shut with some degree of force to wedge our posteriors between the door and dog-house. There is very little room for your legs and feet and on a long run it becomes quite uncomfortable. I was once detailed to take this rig to a LODD at Erie and spent a very uncomfortable day running the 3 hrs each way.
    The second problem, (more serious) is the Class 1 pressure governor and the reaction time for the large CAT when providing water to the hand lines. Typical spike pressues on the lines still operating climb well over 300 psi when a working line is shut down. (We run 180 psi on preconnects) As a result, we found it necessary to install a relief valve as well as the pressure governor. This makes a very nice rig for pump training, but also requires well trained operators to avoid the two systems fighting each other. When working large industrial fires with high flow requirements (like feeding an aerial) this engine out-performs everything in the fleet except the 94 Pierce with a 3176 Cat and 2,000 gpm Watrous. Would we buy another one? NO, but when you have high flow requirements, I would take it before the KME's, Mack, or Pierce for performance and safety.
    You sure you got your #'s right? A 3208 is a mouse motor Cat even Turbo'ed. About the same width as a 534 gas. A 3408 on the other hand is a Sizable powerplant. Unless the system was OLD,reaction time is like any V8. I enjoy your insightful posts but having owned and operated a fair number of 3208's they AREN'T an engine I would pick by CHOICE for Fire service work. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    You sure you got your #'s right? A 3208 is a mouse motor Cat even Turbo'ed. About the same width as a 534 gas. A 3408 on the other hand is a Sizable powerplant. Unless the system was OLD,reaction time is like any V8. I enjoy your insightful posts but having owned and operated a fair number of 3208's they AREN'T an engine I would pick by CHOICE for Fire service work. T.C.
    I gotta go along with you on that one, T.C. I haven't been paying close attention here because of being away alot during the past couple of weeks (was even not too far away from you this past Sunday, Milton, N.H.) I can't believe a 3208 would drive a 1750 at capacity. I would have to check the numbers but I think you need something approaching 250 HP at the impeller shaft to do that. I don't think any 3208 would come close after parasitics and going through the trans. I never heard of a 3408 finding its way into the fire service, either, but maybe some did. That's a lot of engine, and lots of radiator needed to cool it. Sure it's not a 3406?

    I'm shaky on the 3176 driving a 2000 GPM pump, too. I see one reference to it maxing out at 325 HP. I don't know if there'd be enough of it left to run a 2000. Although, I did see another reference to it being taken to 600 HP at 2300 for marine use. Almost like those Johnson & Towers 6-71s in boats.

    Hey, Kuh, whose body with the roll up doors is that on the CF Mack?

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    Up until recently we had 2 Sutphen Reserve Engines and 1 Front Line 100' tower. (Recently donated the oldest engine 1980 I believe to a local college for their fire academy)

    The engines are/were great. I would much rather take the open cab 1987 Sutphen over the 1994 Darley/International that we currently have assigned to our house.

    Our Sutphen aerial isn't bad at all, I just haven't had much experience with other manufacturers to compare it to. Some guys at work who are vollies elsewhere that have midmounts from other manufacturers say that the Sutphen does not turn as well as the others. While I was going through the drivers training process on the truck I just had to force myself to remember how far the bucket sticks off the back of the truck and that I had to adjust accordingly.

    Just a few months ago we took delivery of a Sutphen/International 1500gpm engine. It is a pretty decent rig, fairly stock and I think it cost just under 300k. Only problems are that it is takes a mule team, a strong tail wind, and about a week to accelerate and it still turns like crap. We were told that the turning radius would be vastly improved over our previously "newest" engine which is a 99 Darley/International, but I don't notice too much of an improvement.

    I am spoiled that at the vollie house we have all custom cabs and prefer those over the commercials that we have at work. The only Sutphen we have there is an 1983 65' quint and its not a bad truck by any means... it out pumps just about every other truck in the firehouse, but despite our best efforts to take care of her, she has definitely seen better days and is showing her wear and tear. It doesn't get out too much as with our plethora of McMansions with ridiculous set backs and tons of commercial and industrial occupancies it just doesn't cut it. Alot of guys want to spec out a new one but IMHO it would be fiscally irresponsible to waste our taxpayers money because we are surrounded on all sides by aerials. 100' towers on 3 sides and a 75' stick on the 4th. At last count I think we had 9 or 10 truck companies within a 10-12 minute drive of our first due. We already get a truck on the initial alarm assignment from an automatic mutual aid department so it would be pretty foolish to drop 1 mil plus on something we can't really justify. (I personally would like to see that million dollars go towards a new, fully stocked rescue squad, but I'm somewhat biased towards squad work )
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    I've seen a mixed bag from Sutphen. Their quality has improved greatly in the last few years. On of the more common problems is the door window cranks breaking, which is more of an annoyance. You do need to do a VERY thourogh job of writing the specs. We have a new Sutphen sitting in the bay that doesn't even have hose on it yet. Very nice looking truck. One weird thing is that everything on top is non-skid diamond plate, yet there's "Not a Step" labels every where. WTF??? My VFD dept recently spec'd a pumper tanker, and we looked at Sutphen and Pierce. Sutphen just couldn't quite beat out Pierce in price and quality. They were close though. I would never by a commercial chassied truck from Sutphen. My fulltime dept did in '99, and they were the worst abortions ever built. We got rid of ours after only 3 years and went to a spare '89 custom that had seen better days.

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    We've owned several Sutphen's here in upstate NY over the years, our 1st was a 1997 SP100, ran like a tank. Had Seagrave, Mack and Beck before that, we all know happened to Beck...out of business...Mack also (too bad!). Our 1986 Seagrave also ran like a tank. We have a pretty good maintenance plan for our trucks, so as long as you take care of them, almost any brand will last longer. In 2002 we had Sutphen East build a mini-pumper. Wouldn't go through that again, would always stick with Sutphen Corp in Ohio. During that time, they didn't really have a great sales force, but since then around here in upstate NY they have got their share of the market back and then some. The Shield series really helped them, same as with the SPH. Only problems we've really had is with the components, not the craftsmanship of the actual truck. Had numberous issues with Hale CAFSPRO, to the point where we are getting rid of it. It works good now, after they've upgraded the parts, and it is expensive to operate...going back to basics. Also had BIG problems with Detroit motors after their 2007 emission upgrade. Almost had to sue Detroit to get them to repair the engine after local service shop couldn't do a thing for us, they had no idea what they were doing. President of Sutphen stepped in AFTER their warranty and basically made the repair happen. A lot of others would have just left us hanging. To me that showed great loyalty. So because of that, engine wise it's Cummins this time around, virtually no other choice anyway. I would say to a lot of departments out there, service your rigs 2x per year or after heavy use, keep them clean and they hold up for years. Don't spend the money on the bells and whistles unless they are absolutely necessary and spec it for what you need it for to keep costs down. The Shield we are spec'ing is the same price as our '08 Sutphen Monarch, with no hydraulic generator and light tower, so prices have skyrocketed. Still much cheaper than Pierce. They are definitely building more trucks per year, according to our build #'s, I think they went from building 100 trucks per year in 05-08 to over 200 per year from 08-12. We've had 6 Sutphen's since 1997 and have had pretty good luck with them. We gave another manufacturer their shot, but in the end we are just happy with what Sutphen offers, we know what we are getting when we buy one. We even got our service shop Sutphen certified, so we are lucky, not only do we have a quality piece of apparatus, but we also get 'factory' certified service.

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