Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33
  1. #1
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    469

    Default NFPA 1001 Training (Essentials)

    The AFG application that we submitted this year was in part for FFI training in accordance with NFPA 1001. The grant was pretty easy to write and straight forward. This was, of course, until I go to the cost portion.

    We are a small department in northwestern PA bordering NY. NY uses NFPA 1001 as training standards. So when they go through their essential and get a FFI certificate, they are trained in accordance with the standard. Here in PA, our essentials class is almost twice as long. Once you complete the course, your certificate states absolutely nothing about FFI. In fact, to be FFI in PA, you have to continue your training for another 24 hours to include more HazMat, plus get basic First aid and CPR.

    Because of this huge disparity, we felt that having everyone trained to the minimum standards would b best. Then those with the ability, time, and inclination to go farther can do so. So I pursued pricing with having a NY instructor come and teach the NFPA course. The problem with that is NY academy instructors are not allowed to teach outside of assigned classes ( I was told).

    Now I went back to PA instructors and asked if we could get just the minimum training. According to the state fire academy (which I am increasingly losing respect for), they can no longer issue certificates for the essential class based on NFPA 1001 for FFI. Our only choice through them is the full Del-Mar curriculum, plus HazMat.

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that FFI was meant to be the very basics that a person needs to know to be a safe, effective member fo a firefighting unit. It is is not meant to be an operations level course on everything that may be done by a fire department, but an introduction on fires. There are lots of advanced classes on every topic imaginable. I was under the impression that when you joined a department, you should get the essentials (especially if you go by the true definition of the word) for fire fighting as soon as possible. As you get more involved and interested there are lots more paths of coursework that can be taken, whether it be through rescue, medical, or firefighting. But this work can be done after you are in and have the basic understanding of what is being done.

    Sorry for the long winded background for 2 questions.
    1) If we are all hurting for volunteers, why are we (through Lewistown) requiring more than the national standard when it comes to the absolute basics of firefighting?
    2) If we receive grant funding for NFPA 1001 FFI training, who can we get to come in and do the appropriate class and have certification at the end of the course?

    Sorry for the rant, just some post AFG stress.


  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    The AFG application that we submitted this year was in part for FFI training in accordance with NFPA 1001. The grant was pretty easy to write and straight forward. This was, of course, until I go to the cost portion.

    We are a small department in northwestern PA bordering NY. NY uses NFPA 1001 as training standards. So when they go through their essential and get a FFI certificate, they are trained in accordance with the standard. Here in PA, our essentials class is almost twice as long. Once you complete the course, your certificate states absolutely nothing about FFI. In fact, to be FFI in PA, you have to continue your training for another 24 hours to include more HazMat, plus get basic First aid and CPR.

    Because of this huge disparity, we felt that having everyone trained to the minimum standards would b best. Then those with the ability, time, and inclination to go farther can do so. So I pursued pricing with having a NY instructor come and teach the NFPA course. The problem with that is NY academy instructors are not allowed to teach outside of assigned classes ( I was told).

    Now I went back to PA instructors and asked if we could get just the minimum training. According to the state fire academy (which I am increasingly losing respect for), they can no longer issue certificates for the essential class based on NFPA 1001 for FFI. Our only choice through them is the full Del-Mar curriculum, plus HazMat.

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that FFI was meant to be the very basics that a person needs to know to be a safe, effective member fo a firefighting unit. It is is not meant to be an operations level course on everything that may be done by a fire department, but an introduction on fires. There are lots of advanced classes on every topic imaginable. I was under the impression that when you joined a department, you should get the essentials (especially if you go by the true definition of the word) for fire fighting as soon as possible. As you get more involved and interested there are lots more paths of coursework that can be taken, whether it be through rescue, medical, or firefighting. But this work can be done after you are in and have the basic understanding of what is being done.

    Sorry for the long winded background for 2 questions.
    1) If we are all hurting for volunteers, why are we (through Lewistown) requiring more than the national standard when it comes to the absolute basics of firefighting?
    2) If we receive grant funding for NFPA 1001 FFI training, who can we get to come in and do the appropriate class and have certification at the end of the course?

    Sorry for the rant, just some post AFG stress.
    1) I have no idea yet we see more and more states requiring more and more, and down the line, it will create massive problems.

    FFI is intended to be the basics. Firefighter II is intended to take the basics and place them into practice. Combining FFI and FFII into a single class is counterproductive and does creat an undo hardship for volunteers.

    2) If your state does not provide FFI certification, but only provides this FFI/FFII hybrid course, I would think you are out of luck when it comes to getting just a FFI certification.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #3
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Angry Well.........

    Another reason why we need a National Standard. I have said for many years that we should adopt the National Board for Fire Service Professional Qualifications (Pro Board) as a National Standard. IFSAC is compatible with Pro Board and anyone with an IFSAC Cert. should be qualified for a Pro Board Cert. Get this in place with Federal Legislation, then Require the individual States to Accept it. Maryland already has this in place, all courses taught here reflect this, and we accept Pro Board Certs from other States when you come to Maryland.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Another reason why we need a National Standard. I have said for many years that we should adopt the National Board for Fire Service Professional Qualifications (Pro Board) as a National Standard. IFSAC is compatible with Pro Board and anyone with an IFSAC Cert. should be qualified for a Pro Board Cert. Get this in place with Federal Legislation, then Require the individual States to Accept it. Maryland already has this in place, all courses taught here reflect this, and we accept Pro Board Certs from other States when you come to Maryland.
    Wasn't that was FFI, FFII, Instructor I ...... intended to be?

    The idea that FFI in state X in no good in state W but I can challenge the test in state Z is absolute nonsense.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    I think that a volunteer should be required to achieve/maintain the same qualifications that a career firefighter is expected to uphold...

    The days of riding the tailboard with no shirt on with a beer in 1 hand is over..well...it should be although I know it goes on in some places still..

    If you want to be a firefighter, you should be FF2,EMT-B,Haz mat Ops..
    If you want to be a driver you should have to obtain Driver operator pumper/aerial, CDL, etc.
    If you want to be an officer you should be Instructor 1, Officer 1
    *(in a reasonable ammount of time)*
    Now, I understand that these classes take time, and aren't readily available in some areas, or even that some FDs don't believe in, or want to pay for extensive training..Luckily for me, our training officer is gung ho for training and wants to see anyone succeed in any way shape or form that he can..not everyone has that luxury.

    The bottom line is that we(volunteer firefighters) need to start to uphold a much more professional appearance, and conduct ourselves in the most professional manner possible..This should include an extensive training program that is a national standard, certifications, an incentive to do physical training..and more stringent standards to let people in..This will make it much easier for us to attain funding from municipalities, as well as local citizens.

    Just throwing it out there..

  6. #6
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    469

    Default

    I agree that we need to be professional in our duties and that we should be trained to the highest level possible. I do not argue that one bit. My complaint is that There should be a graduated scale of training. Did you get your FFII, EMT, HazMat, and other training in the first year you were a volunteer? By my calculations (166 hours of Del Mar, 240 hours for EMT under ACT 37, 24 hours for HazMat Ops, 36 hours for FFI prep, 36 hours for FFII prep, 8 hours for FFI test, 8 hours for FFII test) you would need to volunteer 518 hours just to get properly trained. This does not include fund raising, maintenance, or in house trainings. And we still haven't even responded to a call.

    Would it not make more sense to have an introduction / essentials class that brought you to the national FFI level (86 hours)? That would be the first class you take. Now you can go on from there if you want to do more, but you need to have this base level.

    We have people in our department that would be happy if they never wore turn out gear let alone a pack. They would rather set up water supply, move portable pumps, layout hoses, drive tankers, or act as gophers. They have no interest what so ever in entering a burning building. Why should they have to take advanced classes on this if they are not interested? They are extremely valuable in the roles they take.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    441

    Default

    Well stated Hunt. I agree with you.

    EMT-B required for a new FF? Silly idea. This is a FIRE Dept. If FD has volunteers willing and able to do medical then offer that also if it is not already provide by another organization.

    Personnally I've had a belly full of Fed/state dictates on the subject of how to do EMT. I have no interest in the opinion of the federal gov't in how to running the Fire Service or FF training.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    There is no excuse for FI being piggy-backed with FFII into a single clas. None. They were designed as 2 seperate classes at 2 seperate levels and should be taught and tested that way. As Hunt stated, there are personnel on many fire departments that just want to do exterior work and FFI is more than enough.

    They should have the opportunity to get that training at that level if that's what they wish.

    As far as EMT, there are thousands of VFDs that do not, and never will run, EMS. CPR, yes as it may be needed for us, but EMT, no.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #9
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,844

    Default

    First of all, I don't see anywhere where the OP says anything about FF2 being piggybacked onto FF1.

    Secondly, in Wisconsin in order to obtain FF1 certification you have to take the following classes:

    1) 30 hour Part 1 Entry Level Firefighter
    2) 30 hour Part 2 Entry Level Firefighter
    (Completion of these 2 modules is required by state law to be allowed to operate as a firefighter in Wisconsin)
    3) 36 hour Firefighter 1 module (all three modules make up FF1)
    4) 24 hour Haz-mat Operations

    Firefighter 2 is an additional 42 hours.


    I am in complete agreement with the idea that volunteers should receive the exact same training as full time firefighters. Fire and emergencies never ask pay status when we respond and the home owner or victims expect us to know what to do to mitigate the situation, not stand around outside making excuses why we won't act.

    I have been a POC or volunteer firefighter almost my entire adult life and one thing that hasn't changed, whether talking to people face to face or here on firehouse, is volunteers demanding to be treated as equals to career firefighters when the sad truth is many of then simply aren't even close. Of course there are volunteer and POC FDs that demand high standards of training and attendance at drills and calls. But there are many others that accept people simply because they are breathing and walking semi-upright. Having a full roster of people that are highly skilled and trained at the POC or volly house gets respect, having a roster full of people that feel they are equals without ever doing anything to make it so gets excuses and not much more.

    The day of the good old boy jumping on the truck, grabbing a hose and spraying water on the smoldering remains while the property owner says "they did all they could" are over. Acknowledge that people expect professional service whether you are a career department or not.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    84

    Default

    Hunt, maybe this why the volunteer firefighter numbers in PA went from a couple hundred thousand to around 50 thousand. However, maybe we went from a couple hundred thousand untrained firefighters to 50 thousand trained firefighters.
    The issue at my volunteer department is not with our current members, because they have been around for 15 -20 years and have gradually got the training, FF1 & FF2 certs over that span, but trying to recruit new is a whole different ball game. They think we are crazy when we explain the current training process. I think some major changes in the PA fire service are soon to come, if recruitment doesnít pick up. It is probably going to come with a hefty price tag if you know what I mean.
    Any way good luck

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    We are a small department in northwestern PA bordering NY. NY uses NFPA 1001 as training standards. So when they go through their essential and get a FFI certificate, they are trained in accordance with the standard. Here in PA, our essentials class is almost twice as long. Once you complete the course, your certificate states absolutely nothing about FFI. In fact, to be FFI in PA, you have to continue your training for another 24 hours to include more HazMat, plus get basic First aid and CPR.

    The fact that the course is, as the poster says, is almost twice as long , indicates to me that they are piggy-backing something onto the basic FFI. This seems especially true since haz-mat is an extra 24 hours beyond that.

    W can argue all day about if a volunteer needs to be certified, and if they do, to what level that certification should be. Everyone on here knows that I beleive that training content, delivery and standards should be set by the department, and that FFI does often not meet local needs, so I would prefer not to get into that discussion again.

    However, I think we can all agree that if in fact we want certifications to actually be a national standard, every state must follow that standard, and in this case, that seems not to be the case with PA. To be fair, there are many other states that have added to FFI which once again, defeats the purpose of a single national standard.

    FFI should be standard in every state and should be taiught as a stand alone course. Adding additional stuff onto it and making everyone take the beefed up course, IMO isn't right, and in the long run, does a disservice to volunteers.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    70

    Default

    Here in Illinois we have Firefighter II, which from what I remember all together about 180 to 240 hours practicals and everything involved, no prerequisites. Then Firefighter III is after that, which you must have 3 years of service, and Hazmat Ops(40 hours) in order to recieve. There is no Firefighter I, however the state is starting to change how it is doing things, and everyone is starting to convert to Basic Firefighter, and Advanced Firefighter.

    Answering your question I don't understand why though would combine them at all.... I have taken both Firefighter II and III, equivalent to FFI and FFII for you, and to me, it was two TOTALLY seperate roles.

    One thing I do disagree with here is that I wish that we had to go through a 30 hour course like Wisconsin does before we go into Firefighter II. It would open us up more, and show us what we can expect before we move on to the next phase.
    Sincerely,

    JuniorAFPD
    juniorafpd@gmail.com

  13. #13
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Another reason why we need a National Standard.
    We have one: NFPA 1001.

    I have said for many years that we should adopt the National Board for Fire Service Professional Qualifications (Pro Board) as a National Standard.
    The Pro Board doesn't set standards; it just accredits agencies that teach standards developed by other organizations i.e. NFPA.

    IFSAC is compatible with Pro Board and anyone with an IFSAC Cert. should be qualified for a Pro Board Cert.
    Many training agencies are accredited by both but it shouldn't matter. Having either a Pro Board or IFSAC FFI certification should be regarded as equivalent.

    Get this in place with Federal Legislation
    Dear Gawd, no... That would only fcuk it up more than it is already. This issue has to be hammered out internally by the fire service and adopted by the individual states.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  14. #14
    Forum Member HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Acknowledge that people expect professional service whether you are a career department or not.
    I do acknowledge that. I also agree that we should act every bit as professionally as any other department. We do the absolute best we can and have a very good reputation for not only putting the fire out as best as can be done, but also for helping the people with salvage and rebuilding. We are part of the community as a department and as members. We make sure that new members understand this when they join.

    My issue, again and hopefully more to the point, is that the minimum standards are not universal.

    I believe that for a new member to join my department and operate on a fire scene, they should have at the very least, NFPA 1001 FFI. I also realize that people are volunteering their time and in our department that means that some of that time needs to go towards fund raising. I, as an officer in the department can only expect so much time from a member. If that time needs to be split between training, calls, and fundraising, I cannot also expect them to be fully SCBA, interior, RIT, EMT, BVR, and HazMat capable in the first year. I want them to know the basics before they start doing much. The BASICS are just that, basic. Tactics, pump operations, search, and others are not basic.

    We do not expect, nor do we want people with basic training to go into burning buildings. For that, they need additional training. They can be great assets at the basic level. They can set ladders, pull hose, set up water supply, get tools, and a lot of other tasks that help those of us with the addtional training that do go interior. Like I have said, we have several members that do not want to go interior.

  15. #15
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Post Well..........

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    We have one: NFPA 1001.

    Agreed

    The Pro Board doesn't set standards; it just accredits agencies that teach standards developed by other organizations i.e. NFPA.

    My Apoligies, I meant that the Pro Board should be the Agency that issues all Certifications. In other words, A person holding a Pro Board Cert. should be recognized as meeting a required standard.

    Many training agencies are accredited by both but it shouldn't matter. Having either a Pro Board or IFSAC FFI certification should be regarded as equivalent.

    Why have Two, Three, etc, when one is able to handle it?

    Dear Gawd, no... That would only fcuk it up more than it is already. This issue has to be hammered out internally by the fire service and adopted by the individual states.
    I'm with you, except that we need muscle to require States like Florida to accept Certification from outside of their system, right now they don't.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I'm with you, except that we need muscle to require States like Florida to accept Certification from outside of their system, right now they don't.
    The fact is states such as Florida, as well as many others, will not change the way they do business for one simple reason - $$$$$$$. The revenue they gain through firefighters moving into the state and having to recertify is simply to important for them for this to happen.

    When FFI and all that other stuff becomes a true national standard, maybe I'll buy into it. But for now, I have no issues with encouraging and rewarding certification, but there's no way I can see myself being in favor of requiring it, and this is part of the reason.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #17
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Thumbs up Yep.............

    And That is exactly what I want see Fixed. Firefighter Training SHOULD NOT be about Money, it should be about Consistently producing Competent Firefighters......... Sadly, the only way to get that in a few places will be by Federal Mandate, which I think is not only needed, but long overdue......
    Last edited by hwoods; 09-30-2011 at 12:53 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  18. #18
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Why have Two, Three, etc, when one is able to handle it?
    I'm with you to some extent and that same question was asked repeatedly when IFSAC was formed but, as with so many things in the fire service, politics overcame good sense and now we have two.

    OTOH, there are multiple organizations that accredit colleges and universities, too, and historically that hasn't been a problem. The reason it hasn't been a problem is that nobody worries about who accredits a college as long as the accreditation is legit. IMHO, the same should apply to NFPA based professional certifications: As long as either legitimate national accrediting organization accredits it, every state should recognize it.

    I'm with you, except that we need muscle to require States like Florida to accept Certification from outside of their system, right now they don't.
    As much as I'd like there to be an easy solution that's the sort of political hot potato that's going to have to be fixed within Florida (and every other state that refuses to recognize out of state certs). If it's any consolation, cops and EMT's have the same problems...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  19. #19
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Sadly, the only way to get that in a few places will be by Federal Mandate, which I think is not only needed, but long overdue......
    Plan on re-writing the Constitution any time soon?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  20. #20
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile Tough Question...........

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Plan on re-writing the Constitution any time soon?

    I'm with ya....... The framers of the origional Document sure didn't plan on the stuff we're putting up with today..........

    Actually, there are a lot of Federal Mandates out there, they're cleverly disguised as conditions for receiving Funding from any/all of the "Alphabet Soup" of Federal Agencies that have some involvement with that operation. Some States actually lost Federal Highway Funds for a time when they refused to implement Jimmy Carter's 55mph speed limit.........
    Last edited by hwoods; 09-30-2011 at 10:01 PM.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Uncertified Firefighters
    By Station32 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 01-24-2011, 10:27 PM
  2. What NFPA standard covers live fire training - Vehicles?
    By hinesfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-21-2010, 08:59 AM
  3. HOUSTON walked away from this contract
    By Firewalker1 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 05-17-2007, 12:34 AM
  4. NFPA Standard for Apparatus Driver/Operator Training
    By jsdobson in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-14-2007, 11:41 PM
  5. Civilian Fire Fatalities
    By DCFF in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 02-08-2002, 08:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts