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  1. #21
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCOOBY14B View Post
    Go back and read Gonzo's post. He was referring to the video posted, as was I. The outriggers are NOT short jacked.
    Ok, with the photo of the tipped aerial quoted in your reply, you can see where the confusion was. Thanks...
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCOOBY14B View Post
    No "err" in my post. Read my reply above.
    Sorry, I see that now, the addition of the picture confused the comment.

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    Wink Set up

    My dept has an HP 75 which can be fully extended in less than a minute...... Just sayin'.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    I bet the operators manual on your rigs state to put wheel chocks down.
    I bet it says a lot of things that we don't do, and I bet it says things you don't do.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I bet it says a lot of things that we don't do, and I bet it says things you don't do.
    Can you honestly come up with a good reason not to put chocks on the ground?
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  6. #26
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    Default Wheel Chocks

    Okay,

    There has been a lot of talk about wheel chocks. I am a CHST and I work a lot with OSHA, NIOSH, EM 385-1-1, and NAVFAC. I am NOT a CSP or CIH. I am not a know it all with safety, but I am certified at risk analysts.

    I am not sure of the new company's procedures yet, however, On the co I served for 15+ years. Wheels were chocked always. More importantly, always when pump gear was engaged.

    However, think about it, when you put the outriggers out for the aerial, you are taking 70klbs+ of truck and putting it on 4 plates. When we raise our truck, the wheel chocks arent in contact with the tires anyways. The plates act as their own chock. I am not hear to argue this at all, nor do I care. On aerials that are outriggered, (ready to go in the air) I think it is 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other. I ALWAYS chocked every time. But, I saw their argument for not chocking.

    History for chocking. Air brakes used to be made reversed. The air used to apply the brakes. There of times were failures, and the brakes would release. Maybe some of the older members of this forum can help me here, however I think it was in the 70s, that brakes changed to springs. Air would release the springs and apply the brakes. now if you lost air, the springs would push the brakes to the closed position. "fail safe"

    So, on scene, if your air dies, your brakes are always on (applied).

    As a personal preference I always chocked my tires.

    I was merely stating that the videos were not equal, for additional reasons, but also due to the fact they took extra time to chock as the other guys didnt.

  7. #27
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Air Brakes?

    Hell guy, we were using wheel chocks long before on rigs with juice brakes, before we had trucks with air!
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  8. #28
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    There is at least one story a year about a rig somewhere rolling down the road at a scene. Regardless of the reason (operator error, mechanical failure, etc.), not chocking wheels is simply lazy. No other way to put it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    There is at least one story a year about a rig somewhere rolling down the road at a scene. Regardless of the reason (operator error, mechanical failure, etc.), not chocking wheels is simply lazy. No other way to put it.
    Or failing to engage the brake, put it in neutral, or maintaining your apparatus is laziness, sloppiness, and/or incompetence.

    On an aerial, you're taking the weight off the drive axles and as someone else pointed out taking the chocks out of contact with the tires. What use does it serve?

    As oper77 pointed out, airbrakes fail in the on position. So chocking for a brake failure doesn't fly. Chocking because you might forget to apply the brake is an competence issue. Chocking on hills or other situations when worried that the brake might not hold the weight of the truck is a moot point because I said I chock then. I really just don't see the need.

  10. #30
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    We chock the front wheel when using setting up the aerial not the rear. Every aerial operators course i have taken teaches this. The front axle is still in contact with the ground on most aerials. Also to take it a step further we enage the front axle lock.

    Think about it for a minute. We lift the back tires off the ground with the outriggers. Now instead of all the brakes holding the truck in place, we have two brakes and the outriggers.

    Sure with modern air brakes when you lose air pressure the springs engage the brakes. However what happens if that spring is not working or not properly adjusted. If i am not mistaken that same set of springs are used for the parking brake. Did you test the parking brakes during your rig checks in the morning? Is the parking brake adjusted properly?


    Why wouldn't you use the wheel chocks? If that is the case why use the pins on the outriggers? Why use the outrigger pads when you are on a stable surface? Why use a ladder belt when you are safely in the basket with a rail around it? Why use the front axle lock?

    All of these items are safety devices that we put in for the .01% chance that something goes wrong. Use them to protect us from that .01% chance. If anything we as firemen should know that the .01% chance things happen. WE CALL THEM FIRES! (not all fires some are acts of god.) You know those times when the stars align and the protections that the engineers put in place fail.

    Lastly if by some fluke your truck does roll away i am willing to bet the first question asked to you by your boss or accident investigator is; Did you have your wheel chocks in place?

  11. #31
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    Not chocking the wheels at the Massachusetts Fire Academy is a 5 gig offense during hose evolutions. Many a student learned the lesson the hard way...

    Chaulking the wheels is a function done by parking enforcement. again, a quarter or two in the meter us easier than a $25 fine!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    We chock the front wheel when using setting up the aerial not the rear. Every aerial operators course i have taken teaches this. The front axle is still in contact with the ground on most aerials. Also to take it a step further we enage the front axle lock.

    Think about it for a minute. We lift the back tires off the ground with the outriggers. Now instead of all the brakes holding the truck in place, we have two brakes and the outriggers.

    Sure with modern air brakes when you lose air pressure the springs engage the brakes. However what happens if that spring is not working or not properly adjusted. If i am not mistaken that same set of springs are used for the parking brake. Did you test the parking brakes during your rig checks in the morning? Is the parking brake adjusted properly?


    Why wouldn't you use the wheel chocks? If that is the case why use the pins on the outriggers? Why use the outrigger pads when you are on a stable surface? Why use a ladder belt when you are safely in the basket with a rail around it? Why use the front axle lock?

    All of these items are safety devices that we put in for the .01% chance that something goes wrong. Use them to protect us from that .01% chance. If anything we as firemen should know that the .01% chance things happen. WE CALL THEM FIRES! (not all fires some are acts of god.) You know those times when the stars align and the protections that the engineers put in place fail.

    Lastly if by some fluke your truck does roll away i am willing to bet the first question asked to you by your boss or accident investigator is; Did you have your wheel chocks in place?
    Okay, first off, almost all rigs new than early 90s have AUTOMATIC slack adjusters. Anyone who decided it to be smarter, safer, and a better practice to get a CDL even know Fire trucks are exempt from "requiring" an CDL. It is still good to understand the importance of how to operate a truck right.

    Second, a minimum of your weekly check, should include the full CDL pre-trip inspection, this will let you know how your air system is doing and how your e-brake / air brake holds.

    Third, At idle (foot off the brake and vehicle's air system charged), air pressure overcomes the diaphragm or the s-cam is in the closed position, resulting in a released brake system. As soon as you depress the brake pedal, the air pressure decreases, turning the s-cam and spreading the brake shoes against the drum. The compressor refills the reservoir tanks and when you allow the pedal to retract, the air pressure increases back to the original state.

    So, that is why, below 60 psi your low air alarm buzzes, and below 40 psi, your brakes lock on, to prevent you from rolling through a red light, with a tanker truck filled with methl-ethel-bad-**** (in the words of my Haz instructor), hitting a bus full of handicapped school children causing a catastrophe.

    A FAIL SAFE. The S-Cam will always roll back to engage to brakes. Additionally every set of wheels have their own air system, okay, is it possible to break one spring, on one set of tires? Yes, will it make the rig roll, No. Is it possible to have all 6 (on a 10 wheel aerial) air brakes fail on the same day?

    Q-Why wouldn't we use chocks?
    A-Waste of time, and pointless.

    Q-Why use pins on outriggers?
    A-Because manufactures and engineers are scared of their designs, E-One rigs have NO PINS, NOT NEEDED.

    Q-Why use outrigger pads?
    A-Unless you are a SSE (Sub Surface Evaluator, Licensed Geologist) you have not preformed a compaction test, a bearing test, and a proctor, to know that the ground has met a minimum of 95% compaction with an accurate proctor bell curve with mositure content, against ASTM 1557 OR 2500lb/ft bearing. Using outrigger pads increases surface area of pressure, minimizing punch through, and rolling an aerial device. Dont believe this, google Crane accidents, and see what the leading cause of overturning cranes is; a punch through on an outrigger.

    Q-Why use a ladder belt.
    A- Although NFPA is our primary governing body for SOG and Safety, we are still "employees" and obligated to follow OSHA. If you don't believe this, think about why OSHA comes out to investigate injuries on the fire scene. And OSHA Subpart M 1926.500 spells out that we need fall arrest system. In fact, a ladder belt is not acceptable anymore, however, the fire service hasn't adapted this yet. Wait for their to be an injury/ fatality related to a person not being properly restrained on an aerial device.

    Q-Why use a front axle lock?
    A- I am not sure what a front axle lock it, I am assuming it relates to the 4x4 rigs, that locks the front drive shaft through the differential. What purpose does this do for you?
    in relation to your statement, most rigs don't pickup their front tires. E-One does, and Pierce does, and whomever owns a Bronto (changed owners several times over the last few decades) pick all wheels off the ground. This adds more ballast to the rig. Get all the weight on the outriggers. You have a better ballast, and that is why E-One has a tip ratting on their towers at an industry leading 1305lbs dry, 805 wet.

    Like I said, I still do it, but it is totally un-necessary. I chock my boat trailer, by car trailer, I chock everything, its a force of habit, not necessity.

    However, chocking wheels on an AERIAL that is on outriggers is completely pointless! Especially when all 10 wheels are 8" + off the ground.
    Last edited by oper77; 10-04-2011 at 07:46 AM.

  13. #33
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I used the wheel chock on my engine 2 weeks ago. We were replacing a fitting on the brake system.

    First time the chock has been used in a year....cuz the engine is only 1 year old.

    The older engine....can't remember ever using the chocks.

    I did watch our sister company try to drive away with their chocks in place once....they found out if you try hard enough...you can still drive over the wheel chock.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I used the wheel chock on my engine 2 weeks ago. We were replacing a fitting on the brake system.

    First time the chock has been used in a year....cuz the engine is only 1 year old.

    The older engine....can't remember ever using the chocks.

    I did watch our sister company try to drive away with their chocks in place once....they found out if you try hard enough...you can still drive over the wheel chock.
    Hell ya!

    I remember being 18, and going over to the driver-trainer's house one time for a party, and seeing in his garage, hanging on the wall, 5 crushed chocks, he told me, those are all from the people he failed, and that is why he failed them, because they crushed chocks.

    500+ hp, and 1600ftlbs of torque, you can crush anything, if you stand on the throttle long enough.

    Thanks for the laugh!

    I still think it would funnier to have witnessed it.

  15. #35
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    We use chocks fairly routinely, as they're policy. I have seen many crushed chocks, cut tires from cut chocks and tens of time the chocks were forgotten (sometimes left, other times found 1.5 seconds later!) We do check our spring brakes weekly, and yes on the incline of our apron we have had engines(maybe pre-auto slack adjusters?) that wouldn't hold, thus we still have a chocking policy.

    While it's truly operator error, I've seen many an occasion in 26 years where a piece has been left in gear and the brake set, so while I'm not a big fan of chocks, they still make some sense to me. Until we stop hiring humans to drive apparatus, we'll still have these stupid mistakes, luckily we can prevent most of them from becoming tragic fairly easily.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    Hell ya!

    I remember being 18, and going over to the driver-trainer's house one time for a party, and seeing in his garage, hanging on the wall, 5 crushed chocks, he told me, those are all from the people he failed, and that is why he failed them, because they crushed chocks.

    500+ hp, and 1600ftlbs of torque, you can crush anything, if you stand on the throttle long enough.

    Thanks for the laugh!

    I still think it would funnier to have witnessed it.
    Crushed chocks? That's rich. I have seen chocks run over but never seen one crushed. What were they made of?

    Oh, by the way, you can justify not chocking the wheels any which way you want to. The simple fact of the matter is that not doing so violates every safety class ever given. Those of you who think you can just ignore basic safety procedures because you know better than everyone else are a danger to the fire ground and should not be allowed to operate expensive equipment.

    Slack adjusters don't always work properly. Mechanics actually make mistakes occasionally. Even the best hydraulic holding valves leak sometimes. These are the reasons for safety equipment like wheel chocks and outrigger pins. But then, you are the expert, apparently. I guess you have never read a story about a run-away fire apparatus. Or, ever heard of a mechanical failure. Probably don't use seat belts either,
    huh?

    Glad I don't have to work a fire ground with you.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Crushed chocks? That's rich. I have seen chocks run over but never seen one crushed. What were they made of?

    Oh, by the way, you can justify not chocking the wheels any which way you want to. The simple fact of the matter is that not doing so violates every safety class ever given. Those of you who think you can just ignore basic safety procedures because you know better than everyone else are a danger to the fire ground and should not be allowed to operate expensive equipment.

    Slack adjusters don't always work properly. Mechanics actually make mistakes occasionally. Even the best hydraulic holding valves leak sometimes. These are the reasons for safety equipment like wheel chocks and outrigger pins. But then, you are the expert, apparently. I guess you have never read a story about a run-away fire apparatus. Or, ever heard of a mechanical failure. Probably don't use seat belts either,
    huh?

    Glad I don't have to work a fire ground with you.
    Now you are becoming insulting. Like I said, I am not here to put anyone else down.

    First and foremost, my current occupation, career, and self owned LLC is as a health and safety consultant.

    Second, I most certainly wear my seat belt, stupid not to, and further more, I do not move my personal vehicle or any apparatus until all people are belted, including officers. Going to the scene, yeah a few guys are still gearing up, but usually before we get to the major intersection in town everyone is belted.

    Next, Safety class. Lets see how many OSHA certs I possess, how many EM 385 certs I possess, the fact that I have OSHA 510, and 500, and am certified to instruct. Maybe your policy, or your academy or whatever, has a policy, however, I would like to see where it is a "safety standard".

    I also stated, I always, out of force of habit chock everything.

    Yes, we used to use the crappy chocks, and even the new heavy duty folding ones, you put enough *** into it, you will flatten, or crush or collapse, or whatever term you want to use to describe the fact that it is no longer able to operate properly.

    Who stated, I or anyone else in this thread, claim to know more than anyone else?

    Those of you who think you can just ignore basic safety procedures because you know better than everyone else are a danger to the fire ground and should not be allowed to operate expensive equipment.
    Opinion, show us where chocking wheels on an aerial device is "basic safety procedures". Again, maybe your company SOGs, or SOPs, or your instructor's opinion, doesn't qualify the practice as a "basic safety procedure" Have you had such practice analysed by the Root Assessment Code by a CIH or CSP.

    To assume that I or anyone else is a "danger" to the fire ground and should not be allowed to operate expensive equipment, is an extremely opinionated, and harsh statement. I think you are overstating, and getting a little out of control.

    Your vast expertise speaks mounds about you. TRUE, like I mentioned earlier, mechanics, and mechanical items do fail, and break. However, IT is not one slack adjuster on a truck, it is 6. Do you really think that all 6 air pods, slack adjusters, S-cams, Springs, and brake systems will fail at once? Maybe if you are running an antique. I was merely referencing apparatus built from the mid 90s to the present (within the last 20 years).

    You must feel safe in your car, hell what if they engineer who designed your brakes smoked pot in college, what if the foreigner who assembled your car didn't know what he was doing?

    Again, to reiterate what I have said several times. Setting wheel chocks is a GREAT practice, HOWEVER completely UNNECESSARY for AERIAL apparatus that is on outriggers!

    Finally, NO, I have NEVER read a story about a 'run away' apparatus that a) was constructed within the last 20 years, b)ran away because of a mechanical break down c)ran away due to the fact that the engineers who designed air brakes was an idiot d)the mechanics who maintain the vehicle failed to do their due-diligence.

    I have read stories, about people who ARE a DANGER to the FIRE service and the FIRE ground due to the fact that when the whistle blows, and the adrenalin goes, they automatically put blinders on. OPERATOR error, leaving truck in gear while brake is set, or various other OPERATOR errors.

    I challenge to see a story where ALL or ANY for that matter, air brake failures was the cause of a run away apparatus on a scene.

    Additionally, if the aerial apparatus is a quint, and is off the ground on riggers, and was left in gear, the wheels would spin freely in the air.

    Also with interlocks, how can you shift into pump gear, while transmission is in drive? Even my apparatus built in the 80s has an air valve. Trans goes to neutral, then shift air shifter from Trans, to Neutral, then to pump, then transmission to gear.
    So how is it pump gear is engaged and transmission engaged?
    It is similar to a transfer case for 4x4. However, instead of energizing a second drive shaft to the front of the vehicle, you are disengaging the drive shaft to the rear end, and engaging the shaft to the pump.

    Don't feel challenged because " because you know better than everyone".
    Did I, or anyone else here claim to "know better than everyone" I use my experience, my training, or my knowledge to share what I know.

    As mentioned in my other posts. We are all brothers here, learning from each others pros and cons, life lessons, and lessons learned. That is how we better ourselves everyday.

    I am not here to insult anyone, and I do not wish to be insulted either.

    "Glad I don't have to work a fire ground with you" With an attitude like that, you wouldn't be allowed on my fire ground.

    So, I ask you, what knowledge have you shared with the group here today?

  18. #38
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    Second, a minimum of your weekly check, should include the full CDL pre-trip inspection, this will let you know how your air system is doing and how your e-brake / air brake holds.
    Our guys do a full bore CDL PTI every Saturday, so I'm good with that part of your comment. However, doing an air pressure/spring brake test, that is done DAILY, not weekly. Too many variables and issues can/could pop up daily to render the spring brakes ineffective, or weak. A good driver/operator will know if he has a possible issue or not (usually).

    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    Third, At idle (foot off the brake and vehicle's air system charged), air pressure overcomes the diaphragm or the s-cam is in the closed position, resulting in a released brake system. As soon as you depress the brake pedal, the air pressure decreases, turning the s-cam and spreading the brake shoes against the drum. The compressor refills the reservoir tanks and when you allow the pedal to retract, the air pressure increases back to the original state.
    None of this reads right, or sounds right. Air pressure from the treadle valve over comes the pressure of the return spring in the brake can. When air is applied, it rotates the S-cam and engages the piston/brake shoe. It does not release any brake action, it applies it. Releasing the treadle valve releases the brakes through a quick release valve that then releases the air to/from the brake can. At this point, when you hear escaping air, are the brakes released. This also applies to the spring brakes. But on the spring brake, it is backwards, and has no control/action from the treadle valve.


    Quote Originally Posted by oper77 View Post
    Q-Why use a front axle lock?
    A- I am not sure what a front axle lock it, I am assuming it relates to the 4x4 rigs, that locks the front drive shaft through the differential. What purpose does this do for you?0 wheels are 8" + off the ground.
    I'm only familiar with the E-One HP100's on the front axle/brake lock. Our other aerials don't have it, including another E-One. Can't say whether or not other manufacturers have it available as an option or not. Anyways, there is usually a switch that can be activated to apply air pressure to the front wheel brake cans, thus engaging them. This is usually used when on a steep incline/decline while doing ladder operations. This is usually done with the tires still on the ground to give a better/safer footing. It adds some measure of insurance that the rig won't slide. Usually done on wet streets, but I've seen it done on dry pavement as well, as said above.

    FM1

    EDIT: The video its self, is a joke. I can do it faster by myself on the E-One compared to the two yahoo's doing it half-***.
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 10-04-2011 at 10:30 AM.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Our guys do a full bore CDL PTI every Saturday, so I'm good with that part of your comment. However, doing an air pressure/spring brake test, that is done DAILY, not weekly. Too many variables and issues can/could pop up daily to render the spring brakes ineffective, or weak. A good driver/operator will know if he has a possible issue or not (usually).



    None of this reads right, or sounds right. Air pressure from the treadle valve over comes the pressure of the return spring in the brake can. When air is applied, it rotates the S-cam and engages the piston/brake shoe. It does not release any brake action, it applies it. Releasing the treadle valve releases the brakes through a quick release valve that then releases the air to/from the brake can. At this point, when you hear escaping air, are the brakes released. This also applies to the spring brakes. But on the spring brake, it is backwards, and has no control/action from the treadle valve.




    I'm only familiar with the E-One HP100's on the front axle/brake lock. Our other aerials don't have it, including another E-One. Can't say whether or not other manufacturers have it available as an option or not. Anyways, there is usually a switch that can be activated to apply air pressure to the front wheel brake cans, thus engaging them. This is usually used when on a steep incline/decline while doing ladder operations. This is usually done with the tires still on the ground to give a better/safer footing. It adds some measure of insurance that the rig won't slide. Usually done on wet streets, but I've seen it done on dry pavement as well, as said above.

    FM1

    EDIT: The video its self, is a joke. I can do it faster by myself on the E-One compared to the two yahoo's doing it half-***.
    We dont have a paid crew, nor run equipment that often. CDL PTI calls for daily, however, we dont have that possibility, so we do weekly. I wish it were more often.

    I know how air brakes work, however, when I was typing it all out, it got ugly, so that is why I stole that from, http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-p...air-brake3.htm which, I admit, I thought it read strange too, and I was just like, 'huh, would you look at that, well you learn something everyday' and just put it in there. I apologize for the mess up.

    However, I am confused with your process, spring brakes, the spring holds the s-cam to engage brakes, right? and the air then pulls the S-cam against the spring. That way when you lose air, it defaults to engaging brakes to prevent run aways.

    eff it.. Wiki to the rescue... this is a better description..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_brake_(road_vehicle)

    The process is not what I am trying to debate. And I apologize for any screw ups. My point is, that a failure results in brakes applying. NOT FREE WHEELING


    The air lock for the front end seems interesting, never seen it. How well does it work? Is it worth adding it as a feature on a new spec?

  20. #40
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    Cool Wheel Chocks

    NFPA 1901 Standard For Automotive Fire Apparatus requires that wheel chocks be supplied with the truck and be mounted before the truck is put in service.

    Might be a reason for that!

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    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
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    Last Post: 12-21-2003, 10:17 AM

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