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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Blow the whistle???

    An officer in my dept., is taking his EMT Refresher. The professor, gave him the exam as a take home, NOT protocol. Now, many members of my dept. believe this is wrong. If this get's out, I am afraid of our dept. losing credibility in regards to our EMS credentials. I worked hard for my certification. Our chief knows about this incident, but naturally will not act on it.

    Do I contact the state? Am I betraying a brother?


  2. #2
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DropTank View Post
    An officer in my dept., is taking his EMT Refresher. The professor, gave him the exam as a take home, NOT protocol. Now, many members of my dept. believe this is wrong. If this get's out, I am afraid of our dept. losing credibility in regards to our EMS credentials. I worked hard for my certification. Our chief knows about this incident, but naturally will not act on it.

    Do I contact the state? Am I betraying a brother?
    First you should make sure you have all of your information correct. I would think this early in the year it would be a bit early for a state written exam. This may be the challenge exam, which the professor can send him home with. Nothing really clearly written about the challange exam as far as I know. The state written is a proctored exam, the class instructor doesnt get the tests until right before the test date. Highly controlled as far as I know.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    If you are following protocol, i would not be concerned with what anybody else is doing. While your concerns are valid and what is going on is not good, at the end of the day, it's not your job to fix it. You said your Chief knows about and is not doing anything about it. At that point, i would suggest washing your hands of it.

    1. If you call the state, you will have your whole department under a microscope which is not something i think you want. You said you are worried about losing credibility of your EMS credentials? Well that would only happen if the State got involved. If the state never finds out, their will be no issue. I am by no means saying what is going on is a good thing, but once again, when the top of the food chain knows and does not want to act, i would steer clear.

    2. If you make the call, chances are people will find out it was you. Even if they cannot prove it, you will be labelled a rat for the rest of your career. And if anybody gets fired or demoted over it, you are taking peoples income away. Not a good thing to be responsible for. Do you really want to to risk that?

    3. Just because someone takes a test home does not automatically mean they will cheat on the test nor does it mean the person who does it does not have the skills to be an EMT. I know many EMT's and Firefighters who are TERRIBLE written test takers but hands on, they are some of the best at what they do.

    4. Not sure about your department, but when we do Medical calls, you are never alone. On an Ambulance, you have two people. On an Engine, you have 4. So this person in question, even if they are somewhat incompetent is never going to be really unsupervised. And as an EMT, it's not like they may give the wrong drugs or misread an EKG. EMT's are rarley in a situation where they can make a serious mistake that could kill someone.

    The only time i would go over a Chiefs head is if it was something serious that could endanger lives. Expired meds, a serious fault with SCBA's or an Aerial, a Pump issue being hidden, etc. Faulty brakes, etc. A possibly less then fantastic EMT is not a reason i would get the state involved and possibly cost someone their job or bring a ton of heat down on my department.

  4. #4
    Forum Member JayDudley's Avatar
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    If the Chief is aware of it.......it's out of your hands. Perfect Oral Board question here....let him handle the consequences and stay out of it. You do not have all the facts .


    Just my 2 cents!!
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    Jay Dudley
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    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    I've said before, but here it goes again. No one likes a cheater. Everyone hates a Rat!
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

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  6. #6
    Forum Member JayDudley's Avatar
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    BULL321.....You need a second for that motion....well put.
    Respectfully,
    Jay Dudley
    Retired Fire
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    Drop
    Who does the teacher work for ??

    A college

    The city??



    Private school??

    Where are the classes taught??

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Screw that "rat" mentality.

    If you KNOW that actual wrong doing is happening, then use your chain of command and report it to your Chief. If you don't KNOW that actual wrongdoing is going on, then tread lightly.

    If you have proof, then state EMS. Better make sure your proof is good and bullet proof though.


    Insofar as the rat ****, it is just that. Integrity goes a long way, unfortunately most of the world seems to have forgotten it.


    in·teg·ri·ty   [in-teg-ri-tee]
    noun
    1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

    It is not a damn concept. It is a way of life.

    If you were on my department and you did NOT bring this kind of stuff to me, where it can possibly impact life safety, your standing with me would be greatly diminished as would your standing with the department.

    Not reporting him because EMT's can't do anything to cause harm? Or because your department always has two of them on the scene? What drugs are you on?

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~Alan Simpson

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    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Screw that "rat" mentality.
    Hear, hear!

    in·teg·ri·ty   [in-teg-ri-tee]
    noun
    1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

    It is not a damn concept. It is a way of life.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lvfd301 View Post
    screw that "rat" mentality.

    If you know that actual wrong doing is happening, then use your chain of command and report it to your chief. If you don't know that actual wrongdoing is going on, then tread lightly.

    If you have proof, then state ems. Better make sure your proof is good and bullet proof though.


    Insofar as the rat ****, it is just that. Integrity goes a long way, unfortunately most of the world seems to have forgotten it.


    In·teg·ri·ty   [in-teg-ri-tee]
    noun
    1. Adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

    It is not a damn concept. It is a way of life.

    If you were on my department and you did not bring this kind of stuff to me, where it can possibly impact life safety, your standing with me would be greatly diminished as would your standing with the department.

    Not reporting him because emt's can't do anything to cause harm? Or because your department always has two of them on the scene? What drugs are you on?

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~alan simpson
    x100000000!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Screw that "rat" mentality.

    If you KNOW that actual wrong doing is happening, then use your chain of command and report it to your Chief.
    The thread starter already said the Chief knows.

    [QUOTE=LVFD301;1298814]Not reporting him because EMT's can't do anything to cause harm? Or because your department always has two of them on the scene? What drugs are you on?

    I was posting an example. He is talking about a test. And for all we know, it may not even be a re-cert test. Think of how many people guess an answer and get lucky and guess it right. Because someone passes or fails a test is not reason alone to say whether they are qualified to do something. The thread starter is assuming this person will cheat, but we have no facts that he will. And this person is assuming this person can only pass if he or she cheats, which proves nothing as well.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DropTank View Post
    An officer in my dept., is taking his EMT Refresher. The professor, gave him the exam as a take home, NOT protocol. Now, many members of my dept. believe this is wrong. If this get's out, I am afraid of our dept. losing credibility in regards to our EMS credentials. I worked hard for my certification. Our chief knows about this incident, but naturally will not act on it.

    Do I contact the state? Am I betraying a brother?

    First of all, you state this is a refresher course. Refresher courses do have a different aspect than core. As a paramedic I have to stay current with ACLS. When it comes to refreshers for ACLS and even PALS, you do get a take home test. When you do the hands on aspect and so forth, you are tested with that as well as given the take home test again for your certification.

    Seems to be the concept of this is being lost and perhaps you may not have a full grasp on protocol. In order to pass a refresher there is a combination of hands on and written. Giving a take home written helps the student know what to look for and study because the test, while looking formal etc, may not be the actual written test accepted for re-cert. Bottom line is unless you are physically taking the same class yourself, then you may not really be understanding the circumstances involved. A written test can be given as a take home, but it doesn't mean that is the accepted version because while there is practical testing going on, there is another group doing written. I think you may be getting ahead of yourself here.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=WD6956;1298835]The thread starter already said the Chief knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Not reporting him because EMT's can't do anything to cause harm? Or because your department always has two of them on the scene? What drugs are you on?

    I was posting an example. He is talking about a test. And for all we know, it may not even be a re-cert test. Think of how many people guess an answer and get lucky and guess it right. Because someone passes or fails a test is not reason alone to say whether they are qualified to do something. The thread starter is assuming this person will cheat, but we have no facts that he will. And this person is assuming this person can only pass if he or she cheats, which proves nothing as well.
    No, the issue is the take home test. The poster makes no allegation about cheating, capability, etc. The integrity of the test is what I see as the base issue.

    Now, people may surmise that all the things YOU read into may or may not happen, but if the integrity of a test is kept, then there is no reason to even wonder.

    It is interesting that you see the core issue as a cheating issue, but I see it as an testing issue.

    If we maintain the integrity of the testing process, no one can doubt it. If we lose that integrity of the testing process, then people WILL doubt it.

    NEVER ever do anything below board, and no one will EVER have a reason to question your integrity.

  14. #14
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    As a New York State EMT, recertification is handled 2 different ways, either through a CME based recert course with continuing ed as the base for the recertification over 3 years or the traditional recert where an EMT takes a challenge exam that can be given as a take home test to determine which areas the EMT is weak in for the purposes of refresher education. If the EMT decides to take this take home test open book, they will be cheating themselves when it comes time to take the NYS DOH written exam in that they may not pass. There is NO WAY anyone can take the NYS DOH written certification exam home, it is a proctored exam, meaning it must be taken at a testing site. And prior to taking the written a practical skills exam must be taken and passed.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    First of all, I am a State Certified Fire Instructor for the local tech college, used to be a State Certified EMS Instructor too. We are not allowed access to the cert tests at all. They are seperately proctured.

    Secondly, I personally have used take home tests and quizzes for years. Someone taking a test home is NOT immediatley a sign of cheating, wrong doing, foul play, a conspiracy, payoffs, allien invasion from Mars, communist influence, or anything else. It may just be the way that particular instructor does things.

    Thirdly, if the Chief of the Department knows about this and isn't all worked up over it WHY ARE YOU? You say it is against protocol...WHOSE protocol? Yours? The FDs? The state? The institution that runs the class? Who?

    Fourthly, I can't help but wonder what your agenda is? If you think worng doing is being done then report it to the Chief. Why did you feel the need to ask a bunch of anonymous people on line what you should do when only YOU know the circumstances of your story?


    To those of you high on integrity, a RAT has nothing to do with integrity. A rat goes out of his way to find things to squeal to the higher ups about. A RAT will put his boot on your face to get a leg up to make themselves look better. A RAT has no integrity and likely can't spell or define the word.

    Am I saying the OP is a RAT? Nope, just saying integrity and being a RAT do not co-exist and to imply that everyone that goes to their officers to complain about someone else or to tattle on them has integrity is insanely ludicrous. Just as implying not tattling on every little thing shows you have no integrity is insanely ludicrous.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
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  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Secondly, I personally have used take home tests and quizzes for years. Someone taking a test home is NOT immediatley a sign of cheating, wrong doing, foul play, a conspiracy, payoffs, allien invasion from Mars, communist influence, or anything else. It may just be the way that particular instructor does things.
    Totally correct. We only have one, very possibly misinformed story.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Thirdly, if the Chief of the Department knows about this and isn't all worked up over it WHY ARE YOU? You say it is against protocol...WHOSE protocol? Yours? The FDs? The state? The institution that runs the class? Who?
    Again - We only have one story to go by. But, I will take it a little further and state that not all Chiefs should be in their position, and there *could* be situations where a Chief may know about things that are being covered up, and probably should be reported further. Is this one? I have no idea. That is why I told him if he did take it further he best have his facts together and tight. Accusations without proof are BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Fourthly, I can't help but wonder what your agenda is? If you think worng doing is being done then report it to the Chief. Why did you feel the need to ask a bunch of anonymous people on line what you should do when only YOU know the circumstances of your story?
    An age old question on these boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    To those of you high on integrity, a RAT has nothing to do with integrity. A rat goes out of his way to find things to squeal to the higher ups about. A RAT will put his boot on your face to get a leg up to make themselves look better. A RAT has no integrity and likely can't spell or define the word.

    Am I saying the OP is a RAT? Nope, just saying integrity and being a RAT do not co-exist and to imply that everyone that goes to their officers to complain about someone else or to tattle on them has integrity is insanely ludicrous. Just as implying not tattling on every little thing shows you have no integrity is insanely ludicrous.
    Absolutley - I could care less about FF Smith smoking in the station when I am not there, and someone running to me to tell me about it will certainly suffer my disdain - as well as FF Smith when I have to take action then. But when it comes to certs, training, things like that I need to know.

    Just look at all the firefighters and supervisors that have gotten in trouble in the past year for training issues. It is a problem.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    To those of you high on integrity, a RAT has nothing to do with integrity. A rat goes out of his way to find things to squeal to the higher ups about. A RAT will put his boot on your face to get a leg up to make themselves look better. A RAT has no integrity and likely can't spell or define the word.
    Thank you Brother. That is what I mean by "Everyone Hates a Rat!"
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
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  18. #18
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Thank you Brother. That is what I mean by "Everyone Hates a Rat!"
    Anybody who has been in the fire service for any length of time has run across a Rat or 2 in their career.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Anybody who has been in the fire service for any length of time has run across a Rat or 2 in their career.
    I hear you Brother. Its the same for us in blue also.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Screw that "rat" mentality.

    If you KNOW that actual wrong doing is happening, then use your chain of command and report it to your Chief. If you don't KNOW that actual wrongdoing is going on, then tread lightly.

    If you have proof, then state EMS. Better make sure your proof is good and bullet proof though.


    Insofar as the rat ****, it is just that. Integrity goes a long way, unfortunately most of the world seems to have forgotten it.


    in·teg·ri·ty   [in-teg-ri-tee]
    noun
    1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

    It is not a damn concept. It is a way of life.

    If you were on my department and you did NOT bring this kind of stuff to me, where it can possibly impact life safety, your standing with me would be greatly diminished as would your standing with the department.

    Not reporting him because EMT's can't do anything to cause harm? Or because your department always has two of them on the scene? What drugs are you on?

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters. ~Alan Simpson
    As my good brother once said...."Bing freakin' O!!"
    Jason Knecht
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    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

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