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    Default 1901 Revision Idea

    Just wanted to bounce around the idea of removing the seat belt indicator screen requirement, from trucks with two door cabs (A very large percentage of all new truck sales). Just seems like a waste of money & space to have a display tell you, if the person next to you is wearing their seat belt (that's why we have red & orange seat belts). I'm not referring to the VDR, just the display. Ideas, Comments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Just wanted to bounce around the idea of removing the seat belt indicator screen requirement, from trucks with two door cabs (A very large percentage of all new truck sales). Just seems like a waste of money & space to have a display tell you, if the person next to you is wearing their seat belt (that's why we have red & orange seat belts). I'm not referring to the VDR, just the display. Ideas, Comments?
    Good luck with that! I can't imagine that NFPA or anyone is going to do anything to reduce seatbelt usage, even if the indicator is overly redundant in the small cab. I'm not sure about a "display screen" though? Our last apparatus purchase has a multiplex display screen, but all previous to that have just the flashing red idiot light at the top center of the windshield, and that doubles as the compartment door indicator as well.

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    Our newest truck is a Peterbilt chassis to be delivered within the next 60 days. Its a 2 man cab with a indicator screen that is similar the seat belt light in a passenger car. it tells if the seat is in use, and if the belt is being worn. We don't have a multiplex system in our trucks, just simple switches. The VDR would still record if the seat belt wasn't used, I just think the screen is a complete waste of space & money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Just wanted to bounce around the idea of removing the seat belt indicator screen requirement, from trucks with two door cabs (A very large percentage of all new truck sales). Just seems like a waste of money & space to have a display tell you, if the person next to you is wearing their seat belt (that's why we have red & orange seat belts). I'm not referring to the VDR, just the display. Ideas, Comments?
    Absolutely. I've been thinking the same. This revision suggestion needs to go to the committee. Really idiotic to require a $5k sensor system for guys sitting next to you.

    The one variable that needs to be considered is for two door extended cab. You'll see such with single center mounted SCBA seat. Dual center facing SCBA seats. Factory (triple) rear bench seat. Omitting the seatbelt sensor system for such goes against the logic of current NFPA1901. Would mean some windy wordsmithing to define application rule for 2dr cab where there are crew seats located to the rear of the drivers seat.

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    I have a great idea, remove it all. Well I kind of do like the display showing which door is open, so you don't have to go and check every compartment door because the light is flashing.

    The audible alarms are horrible. The last generation went deaf from the siren, mine will go deaf from the seatbelt and door alarms. Its not from lack of use, its from going over a bump and the stupid thing thinking doors are open or seatbelts are off until we're lucky enough to hit another bump.

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    Remember NFPA 1901 is a guideline not The Law,

    Read the disclaimer inside the front and rear covers.

    DanRed

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanRed View Post
    Remember NFPA 1901 is a guideline not The Law,

    Read the disclaimer inside the front and rear covers.

    DanRed
    Agreed, its not the law, however in civil court, I believe most courts would almost treat it as the law. At least as an industry standard which is compelling when all you need is the preponderance of evidence and most likely it will be the apparatus builder that is sued, I can promise you the manufacturers will do all they can to not avoid 1901 when building new apparatus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanRed View Post
    Remember NFPA 1901 is a guideline not The Law,

    Read the disclaimer inside the front and rear covers.

    DanRed
    It's the law for any AFG purchase. Which today is a significant % of apparatus purchases.

    I doubt you can find an apparatus mfg that will let you sign off on no seatbelt sensors. Certainly not one of the major mfg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanRed View Post
    Remember NFPA 1901 is a guideline not The Law,

    Read the disclaimer inside the front and rear covers.

    DanRed

    with the way fire departments and apparatus manufacturers adhere to the guideline and are afraid to deviate from it, it might as well be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    The audible alarms are horrible. The last generation went deaf from the siren, mine will go deaf from the seatbelt and door alarms. Its not from lack of use, its from going over a bump and the stupid thing thinking doors are open or seatbelts are off until we're lucky enough to hit another bump.
    Maybe you have a bad system or poorly built apparatus?

    I've been operating an engine for the past 2 years with all those alarms on it and have had no problems with bumps setting off our alarms. We have lots of potholes, bumpy roads and a number of brick streets. The only "alarm issue" we've had is sometimes if you buckle up before you power up the apparatus, it doesn't register and that person has to re-buckle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Just wanted to bounce around the idea of removing the seat belt indicator screen requirement, from trucks with two door cabs (A very large percentage of all new truck sales). Just seems like a waste of money & space to have a display tell you, if the person next to you is wearing their seat belt (that's why we have red & orange seat belts). I'm not referring to the VDR, just the display. Ideas, Comments?
    How about a REAL meaningful revision? Get rid of those *#%** Ash cans (DFPE's)on the exhaust before they get somebody KILLED. The MORONS that thought that system up should be taken out back and BEAT until they can't walk. That would be a GOOD start. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcatee1 View Post
    Agreed, its not the law, however in civil court, I believe most courts would almost treat it as the law. At least as an industry standard which is compelling when all you need is the preponderance of evidence and most likely it will be the apparatus builder that is sued, I can promise you the manufacturers will do all they can to not avoid 1901 when building new apparatus.

    Here is a ligting section of spec from another "name brand" mfg. There is a play of words in their warning lights.

    LIGHT BARS
    Upper Forward Warning Light Bar
    A Federal Signal JLX6001C, 60 LED JetSolaris light bar with clear domes shall be provided.
    The light bar shall contain six (6) SOL 9 red LED Solaris reflectors, and three (3) SOL 6 red LED Solaris reflectors.
    The light bar shall be installed per current NFPA.
    WARNING LIGHT PACKAGES
    Body Lower Level Warning Lighting
    Six (6) Federal Signal Impaxx red LED light heads with bezels shall be provided.
    The light heads shall be located as follows (NO EXCEPTIONS) and in compliance with NFPA standards:

    In a nutshell their upper warning zone does not meet the standard. It says to be installed per nfpa, not that it is compliant. This manufacturer has done this one thing for over 10yrs, so their not worried.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    In a nutshell their upper warning zone does not meet the standard. It says to be installed per nfpa, not that it is compliant. This manufacturer has done this one thing for over 10yrs, so their not worried.
    Semantics. It's still going to be compliant, even if it doesn't say that. I guarantee you that in the boilerplate of the specification, it says that the rig must be compliant in all aspects of the current (as of the date of the contract signing) NPPA 1901 standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Semantics. It's still going to be compliant, even if it doesn't say that. I guarantee you that in the boilerplate of the specification, it says that the rig must be compliant in all aspects of the current (as of the date of the contract signing) NPPA 1901 standard.
    I was thinking the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    How about a REAL meaningful revision? Get rid of those *#%** Ash cans (DFPE's)on the exhaust before they get somebody KILLED. The MORONS that thought that system up should be taken out back and BEAT until they can't walk. That would be a GOOD start. T.C.
    DPF - Diesel Particulate Filters.

    Agreed with your proposal. But going to take congress beating the wackos at EPA about the head to get such done. A nice 50% cut to the EPA budget might get their attention.

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    Default Seatbelt warnings

    The whole system is there to protect us. Should we get in a wreck, the data log would show proof that we did have our seat belts on.
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by efd281 View Post
    The whole system is there to protect us. Should we get in a wreck, the data log would show proof that we did have our seat belts on.
    And if wearing a seatbelt has been something guys have been doing for years...the system would never have been needed.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    DPF - Diesel Particulate Filters.

    Agreed with your proposal. But going to take congress beating the wackos at EPA about the head to get such done. A nice 50% cut to the EPA budget might get their attention.
    50%? You ARE a Generous man. T.C.

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    Stumbled across info that revision suggestions to next version of 1901 are due this Friday Nov25.

    http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab...sp?DocNum=1901

    Go to the "Next Edition" tab and there is a form to fill out.

    Filling the seatbelt sensor BS for 2dr cabs would be a good thing and should happen.

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    I have made a submission to NFPA, and here is the wording I used.

    NFPA 1901 14.1.3.10
    Proposal (include proposed new or revised wording, or identification of wording to be deleted): A seatbelt warning system shall be provided in vehicles with seating positions behind the driver.

    Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Proposal: Having an audible & visual indicator of seat belt usage in vehicles with two doors featuring either two bucket seats or one bench seat (typically commercial chassis) is an unnecessary expense to the purchasing fire department. All seating positions in these type cabs, are clearly visible to the driver or officer.

    Bear in mind, this does not remove the VDR, just the screen & alarms.

    Maybe this will get some results, only time will tell!
    Last edited by ADC120; 11-24-2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    I have made a submission to NFPA, and here is the wording I used.

    NFPA 1901 14.1.3.10
    Proposal (include proposed new or revised wording, or identification of wording to be deleted): A seatbelt warning system shall be provided in vehicles with seating positions behind the driver.

    Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Proposal: Having an audible & visual indicator of seat belt usage in vehicles with two doors featuring either two bucket seats or one bench seat (typically commercial chassis) is an unnecessary expense to the purchasing fire department. All seating positions in these type cabs, are clearly visible to the driver or officer.

    Bear in mind, this does not remove the VDR, just the screen & alarms.

    Maybe this will get some results, only time will tell!
    Since this makes sense....they probably won't accept it. Seriously though, good job!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Bear in mind, this does not remove the VDR, just the screen & alarms.
    That may be the downfall of the proposal. I'm guessing but I suspect that the alarm is the least of the cost issue. Monitoring seatbelt use and documenting it for the VDR is probably where most of the cost is incurred. Even if you omitted the alarm on the basis that the driver can see whether or not the belt is fastened, it would still need to be monitored for the VDR.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    While it might be a small cost, I figure its worth one lay of attack line or other equipment. Every dime helps these days! Plus its one less thing to get broken.

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