Thread: ALF/Toyne

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen1FD View Post
    I think an important point is to look toward the future and don't reflect too heavily on the past. Spartan made a living selling about 1,000 fire trucks/year to OEMs that did not manufacture their own cab/chassis. Most notably, 50% of that was Rosenbauer. That volume is going away when they get their new cab going. With ALF entering the market, they will pull orders away from Spartan. You have to ask yourself what is Spartan going to look like 3 years from now when their fire share is reduced by 70%?


    Features, price, service, etc. are all aspects that should be reviewed, but my warning to you is to look at how your truck is going to be serviced going forward. ALF has its drawbacks and the bankruptcy is a black eye, but they also deliver hundreds of garbage trucks/year and those require service as well, so their network and distribution are in place.
    50% of people believe everyting they read and the other 50% do not care and the other 50% of those people will think critically about it. Wait isn't 50+50+50 = 100? Those numbers seem pretty far fetched. I doubt any of the larger players will change their percentage of market share too much in the next few years. I doubt Rosy will stop selling Spartan alltogether right off the bat. I mean would you buy the first model year of brand x, y, or z vehicle the very first year it was produced because the salesman told you it was as good as or better than the next vehicle? I think many departments will want to wait and see. Alf has a black eye due to bankruptcy? Seems like a litle bit of an understatement, how many people or companies want to loan anything to anyone that has had a bankrupcy? Pretty much cash only for awhile after that. That will definately hurt them for some time to come. Additionally I think that set them back farther than they ever thought it could. Based on the changes in technology(engines, electronics, equipment, etc) their product just seems outdated to me personally so far. Maybe they can leapfrog into the future instead of trying to keep up with everyone else. With the next round of of emissions/ nfpa/ and federal law changes, somebody isn't going to make it. I even wonder if fire trucks will be able to offer cab overs?


    Quote Originally Posted by rmcatee1 View Post
    I doubt that Spartan will look that much different in 3 years. With Spartan building RV and bus chassis, there will still be plenty of service centers.
    Isuzu, Utilimaster, specialty vehicle centers - lets hope the bus thing works out better this time than it has previously......Again I reall ywould be surprised it the market share changed dramatically in the next few years unless something significant happened like one or two of the mfrs exited the market. If they are there now, they will probably make it a few more years or until the next round of of emissions/ nfpa/ and federal law changes anyway.

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    I find humor in the fact that everyone thinks all Rosenbauer's will only be built on their chassis once available. Is that really the plan? If that's the case, they're nuts...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnfirecapt09 View Post
    At the time, it was supposedly the largest powerplant for that chassis at the time.
    Then get a bigger chassis, if the planned use requires it. Not rocket science...
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Then get a bigger chassis, if the planned use requires it. Not rocket science...
    Then they wouldn't have saved all that money buying the cheaper chassis.

    Smell the sarcasm!

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Then they wouldn't have saved all that money buying the cheaper chassis.

    Smell the sarcasm!
    I see 330's in Engines all the way to 3500 gal tank trucks. the 330 was built for light delivery/local/parcel work. Why anyone would spec one for our work just mystifies me.Our rigs are all Ism's from 375 up. They work had and don't have many issues. T.c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    They work had and don't have many issues. T.c.
    Do I detect a slight Boston accent? You'd better send the leaf peepers packing before you become unintelligible!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Do I detect a slight Boston accent? You'd better send the leaf peepers packing before you become unintelligible!
    Looks more like a typo to me. Otherwise wouldn't it be "hahd?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I see 330's in Engines all the way to 3500 gal tank trucks. the 330 was built for light delivery/local/parcel work. Why anyone would spec one for our work just mystifies me.Our rigs are all Ism's from 375 up. They work had and don't have many issues. T.c.
    Will you come knock some sense into the brain trust at my department? I have a 47000 pound engine being drug around by a 360 horse ISC. Idiots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    Will you come knock some sense into the brain trust at my department? I have a 47000 pound engine being drug around by a 360 horse ISC. Idiots.
    Our Town learned LONG ago the true cost of running "mouse"motors. The FD never did anyway but after STOCKING 3208's for the PWD rigs along with the mini me trannies they put behind them, we finally got a Pwd director that would listen to what I had to say. Fd is all Cummins and Pwd is mostly Cat. Since Public works went to mid/big block engines along with the PROPER transmissions the maintence costs are about 50% of what they used to be. You don't SAVE by using small engines,it will COST you in the long run. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Our Town learned LONG ago the true cost of running "mouse"motors. The FD never did anyway but after STOCKING 3208's for the PWD rigs along with the mini me trannies they put behind them, we finally got a Pwd director that would listen to what I had to say. Fd is all Cummins and Pwd is mostly Cat. Since Public works went to mid/big block engines along with the PROPER transmissions the maintence costs are about 50% of what they used to be. You don't SAVE by using small engines,it will COST you in the long run. T.C.
    God forbid the guy that sells the stuff know what he's talking about... So they did what they wanted. What a gutless wonder the thing is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Looks more like a typo to me. Otherwise wouldn't it be "hahd?"
    Good point, or it could be that Southern Maine is getting back to their Northern MA roots!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Good point, or it could be that Southern Maine is getting back to their Northern MA roots!
    Psst! Displaced Island boy;.............You KNOW what you can do,hehe T.C.

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    We're running 350 CATS with EVS 3000 or 6 speed manual trannies in our 3 newest trucks and have had no problems with them.
    Our new tanker on order: 2000 gallon will be a 330 navistar without cow drippings in the exhaust.

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    To all who are interested in purchasing fire apparatus... you need to check out this website... http://www.hgacbuy.com/ They have most manufacturers available and you can usually knock $150,000 - 200,000 off of the prices quoted by your local salesmen....

    How does it work you ask...? You become a member and search for the apparatus you are looking for, say a Seagrave... Pull up the ones that are on HGAC and find the one that fits what you want the closest.... You then work with Seagrave directly on options you want and dont want on this particular model... You can change anything on the truck as long as you dont exceed 25% of original options... best thing is NO BIDDING... prices are right there for all to see and most Fire Departments, Communities and cities can buy right off this contract without the HASSLE of bidding....

    We just purchased 2 Seagrave Class A Engines.... Maurader Chassis, Stainless Steel, 2,000 GPM pumps, 750 tank, On board foam system, 450 Horse Cummins, Allison AVS 3,000, Telma retarders, Traction control, snow chains, front and rear heat and air, Extenda gun, front bumper attack line, hose reel, fancy shiny wheels, custom paint inside and out, 22,800 front axle, plenty of scene lights, double compartmentation lighting, All of our radios , TICS, Handhelds, flashlights and MDT MOUNTED AND SUPPLIED from Seagrave, Heated mirrors, special air seats, interior powered EMS cabinet, PAC-TRACK in ALL compartments, Fed-Q, Fancy light bars all for $456,000 each, and that inlcudes them mounting all of our supplied equipment.....

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    I can also tell you that we spent 11 months before we decided on a builder... We started with 13 different builders:
    1. Sutphen
    2. Darley
    3. Seagrave
    4. Rosenbauer
    5. HME
    6. KME
    7. Crimson
    8. Pierce
    9. Smeal
    10. E-One
    11. Ferrara
    12. ALF
    13. Sparton

    We held a rodeo for all invited guests... consisted of a driving test, pumping test, evaluation test, mechanical test. They were all invited to either bring a demo to our city, or send 2 of our committee members to the factory where they put a demo model through the same tests. That started the ellimination process as 3 builders said no thanks.... Smeal, ALF and Darley (Darley said they didnt have a demo model available and wouldnt for several months). Several builders flew 2 of our committee members to their factories (NO CHARGE TO US) Sutphen, Seagrave, KME, and Ferrara.

    Next we took out our grade sheets and graded each of the remaining 10 builders, grading them on a multi-point system, ranging from power, truning radius, fit and finish, etc. and we ended up with the top highest 5 scored.... we had a top 10 builder.... no names mentioned send us a 2 year old demo truck that the compartment doors would not stay closed on, the front axle was sitting on the overloads (EMPTY) and took about a month to go from 0-50.... They didnt get to continue.

    Next we had each of the 5 remaining builders take a copy of our specs and submit a PROPOSAL (not a bid) Remember we are working on HGAC.... We then took each one and identified all items that did not meet our requirements and had the resubmit a proposal... Once we had all 5 building the SAME truck they submitted a BAFO (Best and Final Offer)

    I can tell you that the prices ranged from $442,064 to $475,920 with only $670.00 between first and second and $8,000 to third.

    Once all pricing was in we reviwed each builder again and looked at warranty, service, safety and what each gave us for our trade ins (two 1995 Ferrara) and then we determined that the #3 builder had the best offer, even though they were $8,000 higher than the lowest builder and they were awarded our contract....

    I can tell you that never in a million years would I have guessed that Seagrave would be an option for us.... And without HGAC they would not have been in the picture...

    It makes no sense for a FD to purchase a fire apparatus unless you purchase with one of the cooperative purchase agreements available such as HGAC, or Buy Board https://www.buyboard.com/ . There are others and I believe that most builders are on one or the other of the major COOP's.

    I hope that this information assists someone out there.... as this economy continues to go south we have to justify every purchase made and buying from a COOP just gives you more backing with the money folks.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seagravesstick View Post
    Several builders flew 2 of our committee members to their factories (NO CHARGE TO US) Sutphen, Seagrave, KME, and Ferrara.
    How many engines and ladders does your FD have? I'd think the potential for numerous future purchases may make the travel incentive slightly higher than those of us purchasing 1 piece every few years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seagravesstick View Post
    It makes no sense for a FD to purchase a fire apparatus unless you purchase with one of the cooperative purchase agreements available such as HGAC, or Buy Board https://www.buyboard.com/ . There are others and I believe that most builders are on one or the other of the major COOP's.
    ........
    Problem with that is there is no way for you to demonstrate you actually got a better price on your pumper thru HGAC than with a normal bid process. And and as I recall you still have to pay HGAC a %.

    You're taking it on faith HGAC price is lower than x (something). It could just as likely be it works out the same as the guy who shops for a car at maximum monthly payment or gots to the "no haggle/posted price dealer", he gets a new car, feels great about the "experience", but ALWAYS could have gotten a lower price on the same car if he'd negotiate rather than talking monthly payment. Car dealers love payment and no haggle buyers because they more more $ per unit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    How many engines and ladders does your FD have? I'd think the potential for numerous future purchases may make the travel incentive slightly higher than those of us purchasing 1 piece every few years?
    We are a smaller city 6 stations, with 2 aerials, 5 engines and our fleet is 2006 models with the excpetion of these two.... no more purchases for at least 3 years, then maybe 1 aerial

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    Problem with that is there is no way for you to demonstrate you actually got a better price on your pumper thru HGAC than with a normal bid process. And and as I recall you still have to pay HGAC a %.

    You're taking it on faith HGAC price is lower than x (something). It could just as likely be it works out the same as the guy who shops for a car at maximum monthly payment or gots to the "no haggle/posted price dealer", he gets a new car, feels great about the "experience", but ALWAYS could have gotten a lower price on the same car if he'd negotiate rather than talking monthly payment. Car dealers love payment and no haggle buyers because they more more $ per unit.
    Well, we thought of that as well... We received 2 proposals, one from E-One and one from Pierce, E-one was $525,000 and Pierce was $617,000.

    In 2006 we purchased 5 units, (2) HP 95' E-One Platforms and (3) 75' Sticks (We use the 3 sticks as engines... I know, I know, save it for a different thread) We went to bid and ended up at something like $1,075,000.00 for each of the platforms and $725,000 for the sticks... we threw them all out and started over.... Thats when we looked into the HGAC thing.... The 95's ended up right at $940,000.00 and the 75's cost us $619,000.00

    And we did a proposal process using HGAC pricing.... Kinda like an open bid. They all knew who all the players were, they knew they had to get their pricing on HGAC, they knew they had to BEAT all of the other players... Worked well for us, we figure we saved our taxpayers $120,000 by using this process....

    And yes you have to pay HGAC their part..... $1,200 per unit, WELL worth the $2,400 it cost us....

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    ? I'd think the potential for numerous future purchases may make the travel incentive slightly higher than those of us purchasing 1 piece every few years?
    I've been to three factories courtesy of the dealer reps over the purchase of a single rescue/pumper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I've been to three factories courtesy of the dealer reps over the purchase of a single rescue/pumper.
    Huh, we were offered a factory trip by one on our rescue pumper and city hall didn't want anything free that other bidders didn't offer. Next time maybe. Anyone building anything in Hawaii?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I've been to three factories courtesy of the dealer reps over the purchase of a single rescue/pumper.
    Some customer, somewhere, will end up paying for those trips. Nobody rides for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Some customer, somewhere, will end up paying for those trips. Nobody rides for free.
    Absolutely, no arguement there.
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    Well the election has come and gone,guess what nobody could agree on anything for the pumpers , We had a deal with the council for next years budget now with new people that want pay as go budget,so now its back to step one and start over again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashman View Post
    Well the election has come and gone,guess what nobody could agree on anything for the pumpers , We had a deal with the council for next years budget now with new people that want pay as go budget,so now its back to step one and start over again.
    Dont give up.... Get all your ducks in a row again and press on....

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