ALF/Toyne

Hi all,As I said in previous post we maybe looking to purchase 3 pumpers if the price is right,We havent finished the specs yet,but the rumor got out and we have a had a visit from a Seagrave and Pierce salesman and with out asking any questions they gave us quesstaments of over 500k ea, I've seen
Toyne at a couple of shows and liked the workmanship,fit,and finish, Dont know a lot about Spartan chassis, I know they sell a lot of them but some guys dont want to hear that.
It was brought up that a Alf chassis is now offered and to be frank after all the problems they had in the passed few years,I'm kinda against the idea.
Any opinons would be greatly welcome.

And the pricing from those two surprises you? There are a lot of Spartan cabs running around. They are pretty nice and should be more economical than some others. What are the basic things you want on the trucks?

"Any opinons would be greatly welcome."

Sure you want to go there? lol

We placed our first Spartan/Toyne in service 2 months ago. It will run about 600-700 calls a year. The Spartan cab/chas will be fine as long as you spec it right.

Although we have not has a long relationship with Toyne, I will put them on my "short list" of vendors for our next purchase.

C6

My dept has an engine, heavy rescue, tender, and utility all built by CustomFire in Osceola, WI. The apparatus are a lil more expensive (Bolted construction and stainless steel) but we've had EXCELLENT customer service from them. Engine is on a Metro Star chassis which I do NOT recommend. It's under powered especiaaly with 750 gallons of water. Our committee stuck with the Metro Star due to it was about 10 G's less than the Gladiator.

Disclaimer: In a past life I've sold for Rosenbauer and Toyne. Take my opinion how you wish.

You will do fine with the Toyne part of the rig. You'll also do fine if you decide to opt for a Spartan chassis, or even HME. Some folks like each brand, some don't.

I've talked to quite a few vendors that have built on the ALF chassis, as well as some end users that have ALF chassis with General Safety, Toyne, Alexis and 3D/ALF bodies.

This much I know. Every single builder that once used ALF chassis has said they regretted doing so, at least various folks in management that I have spoken to personally as part of my dealings as a sales drone. Every customer that I had spoken to that had the ALF chassis had lots of issues. When we were in the market for a used quint on my own department, lots of folks made it clear (both builders and others in the service business, etc.) to steer clear of an ALF chassis for numerous reasons. There is a very strong pattern here.

I know Toyne had to move to a different aerial supplier from RK for one reason or another, so the chassis deal may have been a requirement as part of the LTI deal. Long term, I'd be very uncomfortable with my odds for factory support on an ALF chassis.

A couple questions come to mind:
How many chassis''s are ALF going to manufacture and sell this year? Next year? 5 years from now?
Now ask the same question about Spartan .

All the Toyne trucks I've seen are extremely well built and They have a good reputation for building what the customer wants.

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Originally Posted by Dashman

Hi all,As I said in previous post we maybe looking to purchase 3 pumpers if the price is right,We havent finished the specs yet,but the rumor got out and we have a had a visit from a Seagrave and Pierce salesman and with out asking any questions they gave us quesstaments of over 500k ea, I've seen
Toyne at a couple of shows and liked the workmanship,fit,and finish, Dont know a lot about Spartan chassis, I know they sell a lot of them but some guys dont want to hear that.
It was brought up that a Alf chassis is now offered and to be frank after all the problems they had in the passed few years,I'm kinda against the idea.
Any opinons would be greatly welcome.

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I'll certainly give a big thumbs up to Spartan/Toyne. Our last engine is just that (Spartan Gladiator/Toyne) and the quality of workmanship, attention to detail and factory/customer relationship has made this a very rewarding purchase. Any issues we've had have been easily worked out.

We also own an ALF tower which for the most part has been extremely reliable, the only downside is dealing with ALF. Any issues or parts is a major headache and lately we've found that we can get parts for nearly half the price and twice as fast ourselves through a third party vendor (Fireline Equipment). The ALF Eagle chassis has been reliable with only some minor cosmetic coating peeling on the cab interior (it's a 2006). So short of service issues, I can't say we're unhappy. While you may have no issues with Toyne, they still might have trouble with parts delays after the sale and higher costs. On the surface it appears that ALF's suppliers maybe not extending them any credit and making them pay retail prices due to being burned in ALF's previous bankruptcy. On Toyne's end, the ability to offer a Toyne/LTI aerial is great, I'd certainly be happier with that than an RK aerial. The real fly in the ointment is ALF's woes and how they effect after the sale issues.

The above being stated, I'd buy another Spartan/Toyne before I'd go ALF/Toyne. No problem sticking with Toyne, but to be on the safe side of service reliability I'd steer clear of ALF given a decent option like Spartan.

DASHMAN- Where are you located?

As for Toyne/Alf, it is no secret that they have joined into an "aerial alliance." How exactly that is being done, I do not know; i.e. can an LTI be mounted on a Spartan chassis and then shipped to Toyne for th body, or does an LTI product need to be mounted onto an ALF chassis which is then shipped to Toyne for the body???

I suspect that the LTI can be mounted onto the Spartan, as earlier this year (which many on here are familiar with) ALF announced they were re-opening the LTI and Snorkel line of products for sale to the general public.

Chiefengineer11 may be able to provide more info......

All LTI products with the exception of the mid-mount (at this time) can be mounted on a Spartan or HME chassis then shipped to Toyne for completion. The mid-mount has to be on an Eagle chassis.

I can't wait to see a Toyne/LTI/Spartan TDA someday.

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Originally Posted by mnfirecapt09

My dept has an engine, heavy rescue, tender, and utility all built by CustomFire in Osceola, WI. The apparatus are a lil more expensive (Bolted construction and stainless steel) but we've had EXCELLENT customer service from them. Engine is on a Metro Star chassis which I do NOT recommend. It's under powered especiaaly with 750 gallons of water. Our committee stuck with the Metro Star due to it was about 10 G's less than the Gladiator.

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So you don't recommend a truck because your department didn't spec it right? Doesn't seem quite fair.

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Originally Posted by SFD_E73_RET

All LTI products with the exception of the mid-mount (at this time) can be mounted on a Spartan or HME chassis then shipped to Toyne for completion. The mid-mount has to be on an Eagle chassis.

I can't wait to see a Toyne/LTI/Spartan TDA someday.

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Careful what you wish for......;)

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Originally Posted by mnfirecapt09

Engine is on a Metro Star chassis which I do NOT recommend. It's under powered especiaaly with 750 gallons of water.

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The issue appears to be with the selection of the powerplant, not the cab.

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Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187

The issue appears to be with the selection of the powerplant, not the cab.

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At the time, it was supposedly the largest powerplant for that chassis at the time.

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Originally Posted by FWDbuff

DASHMAN- Where are you located?

As for Toyne/Alf, it is no secret that they have joined into an "aerial alliance." How exactly that is being done, I do not know; i.e. can an LTI be mounted on a Spartan chassis and then shipped to Toyne for th body, or does an LTI product need to be mounted onto an ALF chassis which is then shipped to Toyne for the body???

I suspect that the LTI can be mounted onto the Spartan, as earlier this year (which many on here are familiar with) ALF announced they were re-opening the LTI and Snorkel line of products for sale to the general public.

Chiefengineer11 may be able to provide more info......

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If we remember back to when James Hebe was at the helm of Freightliner Corp. he got them to acquire the dormant remnants of American LaFrance. He restarted it as a chassis builder only. With the passage of time he acquired several body builders as well as LTI and Snorkel. He then took everything in-house and discontinued selling chassis outside of ALF.

For a great many reasons, and you can speculate forever on them, Mr. Hebe exited Freightliner Corp. and they sold off ALF. As we all know, they've had their trials and tribulations from that day on. Some months ago American LaFrance, presumably under new leadership after several turnovers, did a reversal and announced that they would make most of their products available to all comers. So you can now buy an ALF chassis, an LTI ladder and/or tower, a Squrt or TeleSqurt, pretty much anything but a Snorkel.

I don't know for sure, but I think that all of that stuff is now unbundled, that is, you can send them whosever chassis and get an LTI ladder on it. There had been a story running around that if you wanted their ladder they wanted to build the body, too. I don't know if that's true or not and certainly hope it's not true. Not that they did bad body work back in the day, but if I want a Toyne body (or anyone else's for that matter), then that's what I want.

But much of this is storytelling. A dealer should be able to provide more accurate info. In your case, try Evergreen Fire Equipment (Toyne) not far from you in Monroe Twp., Middlesex Co. (732) 841-5464 (Mike) or (732) 904-1340 (Ernie).

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Originally Posted by SFD_E73_RET

All LTI products with the exception of the mid-mount (at this time) can be mounted on a Spartan or HME chassis then shipped to Toyne for completion. The mid-mount has to be on an Eagle chassis.

I can't wait to see a Toyne/LTI/Spartan TDA someday.

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Any idea WHY? A Spartan/Toyne/LTI MM..........mmmmmmm. T.C.

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Originally Posted by Rescue101

Any idea WHY? A Spartan/Toyne/LTI MM..........mmmmmmm. T.C.

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I know when we bought our tower, the Eagle was the only chassis option for an LTI MM, none of the other ALF options was available for the MM product. Hopefully that will change, giving Toyne a great aerial option with less potential headaches down the road.

All we are looking for is 3 basic pumpers, top mount 1500 pump,500 tank,regular body,6 man cab,something like Detroit or Chicago type,
The sticking point is trying to keep the price under a millon for all 3
and some of the guys think some of the smaller builders are throw away
engines after 10 years, What we have now is all Pierce and no problems
with them what so ever,Before that we had Alfs from the 30s to the 80s
when they went to Pierce.

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Originally Posted by Dashman

some of the guys think some of the smaller builders are throw away
engines after 10 years, What we have now is all Pierce and no problems
with them what so ever,Before that we had Alfs from the 30s to the 80s
when they went to Pierce.

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Wow are they wrong, with a SS Toyne at ten years you will still have 5 yrs of warranty left on the body.

There are some great "smaller builders" out there that can build you a better rig than you presently run. Sometimes people get blinded by the koolaid.

Getting three custom cab pumpers for about $333,333.00 each may be a stretch. You're going to have to increase the budget, lower expectations (commercial cabs?) or deal with builders that can produce for that amount. But even using a Spartan chassis your body cost has to be around $100K which will be tough to do.