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    Default Chicago forcefed 111 by "justice" department

    Looks like re-testing for these mopes started yesterday...

    http://www.firerescue1.com/labor-iss...6-years-later/
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    The thing I don't get is if the score cut off was arbitrary, why only do the black applicants that got "unfairly treated" deserve a job when everyone else at the score doesn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    The thing I don't get is if the score cut off was arbitrary, why only do the black applicants that got "unfairly treated" deserve a job when everyone else at the score doesn't?
    There's a ton of info in the Chicago March 2006 test thread...but basically:
    they administered the test...set a cut off score. Then they realized they could get the number of candidates they needed with a higher cut off (THUS PRODUCING A HIGHER QUALITY GROUP OF FIREFIGHTERS). But, proportionally, there were fewer Blacks in the new group....

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    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATFDFF View Post
    There's a ton of info in the Chicago March 2006 test thread...but basically:
    they administered the test...set a cut off score. Then they realized they could get the number of candidates they needed with a higher cut off (THUS PRODUCING A HIGHER QUALITY GROUP OF FIREFIGHTERS). But, proportionally, there were fewer Blacks in the new group....

    I've seen the thread, read articles, know the back story, but no where have I heard a valid explanation for why cutoff was arbitrary and unjustified for black candidates, but apparently justified and fair for everyone else who was excluded.

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    For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.

    While you may be correct in a small handful of fire departments, the vast majority of cities are being forced to lower and remove relevant and rational objective standards to cater to a self-selected political constituency.

    Why are the whites or Asians who scored too low to get a job not entitled to the same employment? Do you suggest that written exams can magically determine who is of what race/ethnicity?

    The truth at least into how the FDNY & others are confronting this soft bigotry you Mr. "thedude" are advocating for can be found here:

    Here are a few questions for you:

    Do you agree or disagree with any of the arguments or positions above?

    What evidence do you have for your charges of nepotism? Are race-preferences a distinction without difference as it pertains to your anti-croynism, anti-favortism argument?

    Why are black fraternal organizations campaigining for removal or dilution of job relevant objecive writen exams which test critical thinking and cognative abilities as well as general knowledge?

    Do you support race blind civil service merit and fitness standards for municipal public safety appointments?

    Do you feel quotas are a solution? What other method for choosing applicants do you suggest to replace race-blind civil service exams?

    Why is it that the performance gap between blacks and the scores of Asians and "whites" exists in ALL aspects of academia, society.

    Is it the responsiblity of the fire departments to correct this percieved social ill? Is that wise public policy?

    I await your answers.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 11-04-2011 at 09:42 AM.

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    I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.
    Not the case in Chicago. On that test the lawsuit invovles it was all done according to exam score. So plenty of other white candidates, as well as Asian, Hispanic, Indian, etc candidates also didn't make the cut. That includes captain's sons, battalion chief's sons, second and third generation family members, many like that. Were they "discriminated" against somehow, too, if the Black candidates were? That's the problem more people have with it. Difference is no one else decided to file a lawsuit over it because they weren't in fact discriminated against. Still astonishes me that they won this, but it is what it is.

    The exam after the lawsuit exam of 1995 took place in 2006 which the current list was made from was done at random based on the last digit of your social security number assuming you passed the 5th grade level pass/fail written exam. Who you know doesn't help you in the least, (nor did it in 1995 or 1985 before that) and that's fine. I have zero issue with that at all. No one should be gifted, anything, regardless of background. This class of 111 is being gifted the job, and it's completely wrong regardless of race, creed, or social standing in society.

    And even to your exact argument, should past wrongs be "corrected" with current wrongs? What does that accomplish? All this lawsuit did was open a pandora's box. Now everyone knows they can file a lawsuit if they didn't qualify or get their way and have a shot at possibly winning and getting the job the wrong way. I don't see anything right about that.

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    Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.

    To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases. And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.

    To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases. And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.
    I don't disagree with any of this. Many departments do these things already.
    Last edited by Iceman26; 11-04-2011 at 02:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?
    Because its mostly not true.


    And its "pity". Here's to you passing watered down tests!
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Already taken the watered down test you speak of and passed them with flying colors. Currently on a department which services a population over 500,000. No more testing for me buddy. But thanks for the spell check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    Already taken the watered down test you speak of and passed them with flying colors. Currently on a department which services a population over 500,000. No more testing for me buddy. But thanks for the spell check.
    500,000? Wow thats a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.
    Well, if you've seen plenty of (actual) nepotism over the years, then producing evidence of such shouldn't be a problem nor require being a reporter to do so.

    Does it happen in some places? Yes it does, but right or wrong, the Fire Service is far from the only occupation that it occurs in.

    To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases.
    Do you realize that some departments have had and/or still do have things like what you mention in place. If memory serves correctly, FDNY used to have a college credit requirement to apply. It was removed to address "diversity" issues. Valid written testing and physical standards are under attack nationwide simply because some people can't accept that they didn't make the cut and not everybody can work as a firefighter.

    I believe most FD conduct some sort of psychological screening (i.e. "personality testing") of candidates.

    Question for you: How does a person living in a large city like NYC, Chicago, LA, etc reasonably acquire Fire/EMS experience in order to test for their FD or any other for that matter if prior experience is a must?


    And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.
    And there have been a lot more Americans of other colors (yes, white is a color) that have been victims of legalized discrimination, oops I mean Affirmative Action and quotas along with any cronyism, nepotism, etc. that does exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.
    Not in Chicago, and that is what we were discussing.
    Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?
    Doesn't nepotism hurt all races equally?

    Wait, sorry... didn't mean to inject any common sense.

    My bad.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.
    This may happen in the Village of East Bumblast, but most cities and towns have an exam process, background checks, CPAT, medical and psychological exam berfore anyone gets hired.

    We have had a few father/son and father/daughter combinations on my FD. Nepotism had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. We are a civil service FD, and the Massachusetts Department of Human Resources adminsters the exam and makes up the listing for new hires based on the communities the candidates wish to be considered for. They scored high on the exam, passed the background checks, CPAT, medical and psychological exams.

    By the way, my son has been through three exam cycles and missed out on getting hired the last time around by my FD by one slot. Despite what you may think, I have no control over the hiring process.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post

    Question for you: How does a person living in a large city like NYC, Chicago, LA, etc reasonably acquire Fire/EMS experience in order to test for their FD or any other for that matter if prior experience is a must?
    Military has firefighters and EMT's, College has EMT and Paramedic programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post

    We have had a few father/son and father/daughter combinations on my FD. Nepotism had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. We are a civil service FD, and the Massachusetts Department of Human Resources adminsters the exam and makes up the listing for new hires based on the communities the candidates wish to be considered for. They scored high on the exam, passed the background checks, CPAT, medical and psychological exams.
    Ok, whatever you say.

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    Yo dude, did you get YOUR job through nepotism? PS Your " close to a decade" in the fire department does not impress me.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    Yo dude, did you get YOUR job through nepotism? PS Your " close to a decade" in the fire department does not impress me.
    That doesn't impress you. Darn... Because at the end of the day, if I don't impress some complete stranger off an internet site, I just can't live with myself........... Get over yourself tough guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?
    I think you missed the point.

    Men like us don't support nepotism, favortism, croynism, hand-outs, set-asides, quotas in any fashion, method, policy or form.

    It seems like no matter what city one looks to one minority group or another is demanding standards be removed or lowered in an attempt to get people with their skin color or common ancestry hired. Is this or is this not racism? Do you condemn racism in all its forms? Do you support high-relevant race-blind objective civil service hiring standards?

    The facts illustrate that there is little reason to believe your fantasy about widespread "white" favortism being a scourge that must be confronted in todays fire service. And there is sufficent evidence that certain groups (mostly black fraternal groups) attempt to claim poor performance on the part of many individuals who just so happen to have common race/ethnicity somehow justifies discrimination of those who have proven themselves and that those individuals must be judged differently with a handicap because they are black!

    Do you feel this is paternalistic and condecending? Are blacks equal as men as to whites and Asians and Hispanics or should they be judged on a sliding scale due to their skin color?

    And if you have a legitimate argument you will answer my questions as listed in my above posts.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- It is IMPOSSIBLE to get on FDNY by who you know...you must past the same civil service exam and everyone gets hired in rank list order regardless of who they know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.

    To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases. And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.
    You find common cause with black fraternal groups and their lawyers who look to undermine merit and fitness standards within civil service laws and then you advocate the above?!?!?!?

    Explain to us how the above isn't more subjective and more prone to favortism, bias and likely to result in burdensom lawsuits?

    A list created by those who can prove via a written exam and physical agility exam who is most qualified and thus most likely to survive probie school and most likely to succeed as a fireman is far superior to your "who you know" dog and pony show you described above!

    Wow I can' only imagine what a wonderful meritocracy your little burb must be.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedude01 View Post
    Military has firefighters and EMT's
    True, however there are not enough spots in the military to reasonably be a feeder to the metro FDs in the country.

    College has EMT and Paramedic programs.
    Yes, some colleges offer Fire and EMS training courses, however a basic training course is not exactly the same thing as "experience". Besides, why should prior experience necessarily be a requirement when a recruit will be attending a Fire Academy anyway once hired?

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