Chicago forcefed 111 by "justice" department

[SkylinePCG]

Looks like re-testing for these mopes started yesterday...

http://www.firerescue1.com/labor-iss...6-years-later/

[nameless]

The thing I don't get is if the score cut off was arbitrary, why only do the black applicants that got "unfairly treated" deserve a job when everyone else at the score doesn't?

[ATFDFF]

The thing I don't get is if the score cut off was arbitrary, why only do the black applicants that got "unfairly treated" deserve a job when everyone else at the score doesn't?

There's a ton of info in the Chicago March 2006 test thread...but basically:
they administered the test...set a cut off score. Then they realized they could get the number of candidates they needed with a higher cut off (THUS PRODUCING A HIGHER QUALITY GROUP OF FIREFIGHTERS). But, proportionally, there were fewer Blacks in the new group....

[CaptOldTimer]

Over here guys:


http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...ht=chicago+111 (Chicago FD Set to Hire 111 Black Firefighters)

[nameless]

There's a ton of info in the Chicago March 2006 test thread...but basically:
they administered the test...set a cut off score. Then they realized they could get the number of candidates they needed with a higher cut off (THUS PRODUCING A HIGHER QUALITY GROUP OF FIREFIGHTERS). But, proportionally, there were fewer Blacks in the new group....

I've seen the thread, read articles, know the back story, but no where have I heard a valid explanation for why cutoff was arbitrary and unjustified for black candidates, but apparently justified and fair for everyone else who was excluded.

[thedude01]

For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.

[FFFRED]

For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.

While you may be correct in a small handful of fire departments, the vast majority of cities are being forced to lower and remove relevant and rational objective standards to cater to a self-selected political constituency.

Why are the whites or Asians who scored too low to get a job not entitled to the same employment? Do you suggest that written exams can magically determine who is of what race/ethnicity?

The truth at least into how the FDNY & others are confronting this soft bigotry you Mr. "thedude" are advocating for can be found here:

• www.meritmattersusa.blogspot.com
  
• http://www.acri.org/blog/2011/08/18/...low-the-logic/
• http://www.acri.org/blog/2011/08/23/...-million-exam/
• http://www.acri.org/blog/2011/08/17/...-goes-forward/
• http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/20...hters-opinion/
• http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/20...planted-noose/
• http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/08/10/denver/
• http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/03/26/racist/
• http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/20...use-diversity/

Here are a few questions for you:

Do you agree or disagree with any of the arguments or positions above?

What evidence do you have for your charges of nepotism? Are race-preferences a distinction without difference as it pertains to your anti-croynism, anti-favortism argument?

Why are black fraternal organizations campaigining for removal or dilution of job relevant objecive writen exams which test critical thinking and cognative abilities as well as general knowledge?

Do you support race blind civil service merit and fitness standards for municipal public safety appointments?

Do you feel quotas are a solution? What other method for choosing applicants do you suggest to replace race-blind civil service exams?

Why is it that the performance gap between blacks and the scores of Asians and "whites" exists in ALL aspects of academia, society.

Is it the responsiblity of the fire departments to correct this percieved social ill? Is that wise public policy?

I await your answers.

FTM-PTB

[thedude01]

I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?

[Iceman26]

For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.

Not the case in Chicago. On that test the lawsuit invovles it was all done according to exam score. So plenty of other white candidates, as well as Asian, Hispanic, Indian, etc candidates also didn't make the cut. That includes captain's sons, battalion chief's sons, second and third generation family members, many like that. Were they "discriminated" against somehow, too, if the Black candidates were? That's the problem more people have with it. Difference is no one else decided to file a lawsuit over it because they weren't in fact discriminated against. Still astonishes me that they won this, but it is what it is.

The exam after the lawsuit exam of 1995 took place in 2006 which the current list was made from was done at random based on the last digit of your social security number assuming you passed the 5th grade level pass/fail written exam. Who you know doesn't help you in the least, (nor did it in 1995 or 1985 before that) and that's fine. I have zero issue with that at all. No one should be gifted, anything, regardless of background. This class of 111 is being gifted the job, and it's completely wrong regardless of race, creed, or social standing in society.

And even to your exact argument, should past wrongs be "corrected" with current wrongs? What does that accomplish? All this lawsuit did was open a pandora's box. Now everyone knows they can file a lawsuit if they didn't qualify or get their way and have a shot at possibly winning and getting the job the wrong way. I don't see anything right about that.

[thedude01]

Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.

To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases. And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.

[Iceman26]

Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.

To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases. And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.

I don't disagree with any of this. Many departments do these things already.

[nyckftbl]

I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?

Because its mostly not true.


And its "pity". Here's to you passing watered down tests!

[thedude01]

Already taken the watered down test you speak of and passed them with flying colors. Currently on a department which services a population over 500,000. No more testing for me buddy. But thanks for the spell check.

[nyckftbl]

Already taken the watered down test you speak of and passed them with flying colors. Currently on a department which services a population over 500,000. No more testing for me buddy. But thanks for the spell check.

500,000? Wow thats a lot.

[FireMedic049]

Evidence? I'm not some news reporter, just a guy who has been in the fire service for close to a decade and have seen plenty of nepotism over the years.

Well, if you've seen plenty of (actual) nepotism over the years, then producing evidence of such shouldn't be a problem nor require being a reporter to do so.

Does it happen in some places? Yes it does, but right or wrong, the Fire Service is far from the only occupation that it occurs in.

To answer a few of your questions. In order to get hired I think showing some sort of initive before applying should be taken into consideration. Military, college, prior fire experience, EMS experience, you have them all you should be a shoe in. Physical standards a must, CPAT is a good start but not a solve all. Written testing should also be weighed in, and personality testing. I've met some ppl that are great test takers but manage to **** everyone off in the firehouse on a daily bases.

Do you realize that some departments have had and/or still do have things like what you mention in place. If memory serves correctly, FDNY used to have a college credit requirement to apply. It was removed to address "diversity" issues. Valid written testing and physical standards are under attack nationwide simply because some people can't accept that they didn't make the cut and not everybody can work as a firefighter.

I believe most FD conduct some sort of psychological screening (i.e. "personality testing") of candidates.

Question for you: How does a person living in a large city like NYC, Chicago, LA, etc reasonably acquire Fire/EMS experience in order to test for their FD or any other for that matter if prior experience is a must?

And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.

And there have been a lot more Americans of other colors (yes, white is a color) that have been victims of legalized discrimination, oops I mean Affirmative Action and quotas along with any cronyism, nepotism, etc. that does exist.

[Whocares]

And there are plenty of Black Americans with plenty of experience that don't get hired because perhaps of cronism.

Not in Chicago, and that is what we were discussing.

[ChiefKN]

I think you missed the point "Fred", all I'm saying is that before crying and having your little pitty party about how you should be hired and not the blacks because you're a better test taker, why is it that the race argument always comes up and white nepotism hires don't get the time of day? Whens the last time you saw an article in the paper about how a group of whites were hired because of inside connections and not because of experience?

Doesn't nepotism hurt all races equally?

Wait, sorry... didn't mean to inject any common sense.

My bad.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

For anyone crying foul. Walk into any fire department and I'm sure you'll find a handful of white firefighters with no prior experience who only got the job because of, daddy, uncle, grandpa etc etc.. Nepotism is huge in the fire department but everyones quick to point out how the blacks are getting on only because they're black. If you did a little research you would find most fire departments candidates are hired because of who they know not what they know.

This may happen in the Village of East Bumblast, but most cities and towns have an exam process, background checks, CPAT, medical and psychological exam berfore anyone gets hired.

We have had a few father/son and father/daughter combinations on my FD. Nepotism had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. We are a civil service FD, and the Massachusetts Department of Human Resources adminsters the exam and makes up the listing for new hires based on the communities the candidates wish to be considered for. They scored high on the exam, passed the background checks, CPAT, medical and psychological exams.

By the way, my son has been through three exam cycles and missed out on getting hired the last time around by my FD by one slot. Despite what you may think, I have no control over the hiring process.

[thedude01]

Question for you: How does a person living in a large city like NYC, Chicago, LA, etc reasonably acquire Fire/EMS experience in order to test for their FD or any other for that matter if prior experience is a must?

Military has firefighters and EMT's, College has EMT and Paramedic programs.

[thedude01]

We have had a few father/son and father/daughter combinations on my FD. Nepotism had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. We are a civil service FD, and the Massachusetts Department of Human Resources adminsters the exam and makes up the listing for new hires based on the communities the candidates wish to be considered for. They scored high on the exam, passed the background checks, CPAT, medical and psychological exams.

Ok, whatever you say.