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    jakesdad

    This depends on the context of the building inwhich we are disscussing. The general rule is to have water on the fire floor. You are correct and won't get an argument from me about stretching dry in a fire resistive building, say a Multiple Dwelling if condition allow. (Like the door to the fire apartment being closed). We can in this instants stretch dry right to the door of the fire apartment. The building's constuction and fire safety features allows us to do this in a safe mannor.

    We never stretch dry above the fire. We don't stretch dry into a house with the basement on fire. That line is charged at the door. It's a hard stretch looking for cellar stair with a charged line with smoke and heat. We have this line charged for the same reasons we should have it charged on the fire floor in most cases, our safety until we reach the fire for extingishment.

    There are no absolutes in this business, and I do think I get where you are coming from. For me, in general terms. Stretching dry on the fire floor is a hard sell.

    Be safe
    Last edited by Capt-nj; 12-13-2011 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    jakesdad

    This depends on the context of the building inwhich we are disscussing. The general rule is to have water on the fire floor. You are correct and won't get an argument from me about stretching dry in a fire resistive building, say a Multiple Dwelling if condition allow. (Like the door to the fire apartment being closed). We can in this instants stretch dry right to the door of the fire apartment. The building's constuction and fire safety features allows us to do this in a safe mannor.

    We never stretch dry above the fire. We don't stretch dry into a house with the basement on fire. That line is charged at the door. It's a hard stretch looking for cellar stair with a charged line with smoke and heat. We have this line charged for the same reasons we should have it charged on the fire floor in most cases, our safety until we reach the fire for extingishment.

    There are no absolutes in this business, and I do think I get where you are coming from. For me, in general terms. Stretching dry on the fire floor is a hard sell.

    Be safe
    I would respectfully disagree and say the general rule is to have water in the "fire area" which may or may not be the fire floor.

    And I believe the most important factor in determining where the line is charged is not the building or occupancy type but rather the control of the door to the fire area.

    There is no reason why a dry line can't be stretched to the fire area as long as this door is controlled, regardless of building or occupancy type.

    If your experience is mostly private dwellings, charging the line on the fire floor is probably what you do most often since bedroom doors are seldom controlled.

    But if your experience is in multiple dwellings, both fireproof and non-fireproof, stretching a dry line to the fire area (which may be the fire apartment or a room within the fire apartment) is both safe and warranted.

    Staffing, dedicated truck companies and manpower usually dictate the ability to locate and control the apartment/fire room door ahead of the line. In departments where those things are lacking, charging the line at the actual door may be impractical. But in departments where they are not, it is a fairly routine and effective tactic.

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    I think you are dead right. If you have control of the door and can confine the fire, stretching dry to the fire apartment is exceptable. I think we differ on where to charge the line.

    I feel that it is risky to flake an uncharged hose into an apartment right up to the room that is on fire even if the door is controlled. Regardless of the construction type. There are so many variables that can swing a routine content fire into a major incident. I would hate to get caught without water if something goes wrong, or worse yet, we miss and pass fire going to where we think it is. It happens. I've passed fire unknowningly!!

    There are just so many what ifs. If it 's not charges how do we know we have a reliable water source, or that there is nothing impeding flow to our nozzle. What if we experience a rapid change in conditions, visability, heat. With that charged line I can now deal with the changes rapidly. Not having to call for the water, bleed the line, and most importantly for me anyway(guys think I and crazy) know that my line is not caught under a doorway or kinked again impeding my water.

    I get where you are coming from and respect your opinions. I Know there is exceptions to ever rule and circumstances dictate. But for me as a general rule the line should have water on the fire floor.

    I would just like to say I enjoyed writing on thread with you. Your posts are well thought and cordial, not combative and well understood.

    Be safe brother

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    Coming from a Dept that fights a good bit of fire and do it well, our SOP's say NEVER! Its one thing if you've got to advance a line up several flights of stairs on the outside of a structure but unless youve got more than 2-3 stories to advance a line internally and have no stand pipe, then I'd say never!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    Coming from a Dept that fights a good bit of fire and do it well, our SOP's say NEVER!
    Never in a fire room or anywhere in the structure? For example you pull up to a 2-story with smoke from the soffits and gable ends - nowhere else. Will you pull hose to the top of the stairway uncharged or charge outside the front door?
    Last edited by Spencer534; 01-25-2012 at 03:43 PM.

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    why would you not charge the line at the front door. You have to stop to mask up, charge it whilie the crew is doing that. it limits the radio traffic of having to call for the line to be charged and any varibles such as kinks at corners or under doorways. Pulling a line to a 2nd floor is not that difficult in a single family dwelling. Now if you are taking about apartments or other larger building it all depends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    why would you not charge the line at the front door. You have to stop to mask up, charge it whilie the crew is doing that. it limits the radio traffic of having to call for the line to be charged and any varibles such as kinks at corners or under doorways. Pulling a line to a 2nd floor is not that difficult in a single family dwelling. Now if you are taking about apartments or other larger building it all depends.
    Good point about worrying about the kinks and doorways. My point was about "NEVER" pulling it inside the structure. Not sure I agree with "NEVER".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    Never in a fire room or anywhere in the structure? For example you pull up to a 2-story with smoke from the soffits and gable ends - nowhere else. Will you pull hose to the top of the stairway uncharged or charge outside the front door?
    We will always charge the initial attack line prior entering the structure.. AND we use 2" pre-connects... You never know what could happen once you've entered the structure... you might need that water quicker than you think..
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    We will always charge the initial attack line prior entering the structure.. AND we use 2" pre-connects... You never know what could happen once you've entered the structure... you might need that water quicker than you think..
    ALWAYS...is a long time. If we roll up on a large factory, warehouse, or business and the fire is deep into the building, or on an upper floor, it is counterproductive to charge the line at the front door before entering. You could be talking about a charged line stretch of hundreds of feet through the building to get to the fire. I have used a dry stretch on the first floor of a SFD to the bottom of the stairs before calling for water if the fire is on the second floor.

    The key is a good 360 and size up to detemine the best way to advance the attack line. Another determining factor would be the experience level of the crew. A more experienced crew would be better practiced at reading the incident and how far they could go safely dry. A less experienced crew may want to ALWAYS have a charged line with them.

    By the way, one of the POC FDs I run with uses 2 inch handlines exclusively with preconnects of 200 and 300 feet. And flows from 160 to 300 gpm. My career FD, and the other POC FD, I run with use 1 3/4 inch preconnects of between 100 and 250 feet.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-09-2012 at 12:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ALWAYS...is a long time. If we roll up on a large factory, warehouse, or business and the fire is deep into the building, or on an upper floor, it is counterproductive to charge the line at the front door before entering. You could be talking about a charged line stretch of hundreds of feet through the building to get to the fire. I have used a dry stretch on the first floor of a SFD to the bottom of the stairs before calling for water if the fire is on the second floor..
    I agree on waiting to charge the line until needed. We have 3-4-5 story walk ups with no standpipe. While they will "always" charge before entering, we would never charge a line before entering the building for an upper floor fire.
    We do not have pre-connects on our engines.

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    In my original response I said Unless I've got to go up several stories with no stand pipe.. your right about "always"!! There are going to be certain circumstances.. But 99.9% of the time I will charge an initial attack line prior to entry... But also in my first due, 99% of the fires I'm fighting are single-family/Multi-family dwellings were The fire is just 50-150' from the engine!

    And we have 2 pre-connects both 2" 200' with dual force fog nozzle that can put out anywhere from 135-250 gpm depending on what you pump to it and the setting on the nozzle (low pressure- standard pressure). Not necessarily my choice but its what they give us and we make it work! haha!
    Last edited by thomasldixon33; 02-09-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    I agree on waiting to charge the line until needed. We have 3-4-5 story walk ups with no standpipe. While they will "always" charge before entering, we would never charge a line before entering the building for an upper floor fire.
    We do not have pre-connects on our engines.
    I agree on waiting if you've got several stories to go up with no standpipe..
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    From what I've learned, I would think that the rule of thumb is no, but a charged line is hard to move around and isn't flexible, so if you have some idea of the layout and KNOW it will be a bunch of corners and turns and the fire is more towards the interior of the structure, then sure. But be prepared for anything and get that line charged at moments notice.
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    so you think you know the layout of this structure and you think you know where most of the fire is.. so you walk in with your uncharged hoseline and within 20-30' you fall through the floor.. or the roof caves on you.. or there is somesort of explosion ( specially in a warehouse scenario) and your on the ground, on fire, with an uncharged hoseline.. By the time you get oriented, get to your radio, call a mayday and water, and the time it takes for the hose to get charged....... your probably burnt toast..


    Plan for the worst, hope for the best...
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    so you think you know the layout of this structure and you think you know where most of the fire is.. so you walk in with your uncharged hoseline and within 20-30' you fall through the floor.. or the roof caves on you.. or there is somesort of explosion ( specially in a warehouse scenario) and your on the ground, on fire, with an uncharged hoseline.. By the time you get oriented, get to your radio, call a mayday and water, and the time it takes for the hose to get charged....... your probably burnt toast..


    Plan for the worst, hope for the best...
    Sure, and you could get killed in an apparatus accident en route to the scene. Now can we get back to serious, reality based discussion of the topic, or do you want to play stupid games with what ifs?

    I said quite clearly, and concisely, that a 360 and a good size-up were important elements to a proper hose stretch. An EXPERIENCED crew will know when it is proper to stretch dry and when it is smarter to charge the line at the door. I also never said to advance a dry line into a smoke or heat filled area. Seriously, only a complete moron would advance a dryline into heavy smoke and heat.

    A warehouse, or big box store, fire can mean stretches of hundreds feet into the building. How many firefighters can you muster to manhandle 200 to 400 feet of charged 2 1/2 inside a building? Because even with 2 inch you aren't going over 300 feet with out high friction loss for higher flows.

    Okay let's talk about your scenarios...

    Basement fire where you fall through the floor...360 and size-up SHOULD tell you the fire is in the basement. If there is NO IDEA where the fire is the line goes in charged. I never advocated going in with an uncharged line if you don't know where the fire is or heat and smoke conditions called for a charged line.

    If your 360 or size-up is so poor that you have no indication that the roof is compromised a charged handline going in with you is the least of your concerns. I am curious though how a charged hoseline prevents you from being injured or killed as you are being crushed by the roof falling on you. Could you elaborate on this? I am willing to learn.

    I NEVER advocated crawling right up to the fire in a warehouse, or anywhere else for that matter. I have clealy stated repeatedly that you would advance to a safe place, or dstance, fom the fire before calling for water. If you do that the risk from explosion (Backdraft anyone?) inside a warehouse would be minimized. Not every warehouse contains flammable liquids, chemicals, or explosives. Some have things like food, paper goods, clothing, lumber, building materials, you know Class A materials. A good program of pre-planning would help with tactical decision making.

    Again, if conditions clearly call for a charged line then that is what you should enter with. Perhaps less experienced crews should ALWAYS enter with a charged line. I am not telling anyone what they should do. I am saying what I would do, what MY FDs do.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-10-2012 at 12:56 AM.
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    FyredUp....please don't try and apply common sense and logic to any of your firefighting tactics.



    for the record...we charge the line when it needs to be charged. Could be at front door, could be at fire room door on 2nd floor. Nothing higher than a 3rd floor in my area so I won't comment on hi-rises.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Sure, and you could get killed in an apparatus accident en route to the scene. Now can we get back to serious, reality based discussion of the topic, or do you want to play stupid games with what ifs?

    I said quite clearly, and concisely, that a 360 and a good size-up were important elements to a proper hose stretch. An EXPERIENCED crew will know when it is proper to stretch dry and when it is smarter to charge the line at the door. I also never said to advance a dry line into a smoke or heat filled area. Seriously, only a complete moron would advance a dryline into heavy smoke and heat.

    A warehouse, or big box store, fire can mean stretches of hundreds feet into the building. How many firefighters can you muster to manhandle 200 to 400 feet of charged 2 1/2 inside a building? Because even with 2 inch you aren't going over 300 feet with out high friction loss for higher flows.

    Okay let's talk about your scenarios...

    Basement fire where you fall through the floor...360 and size-up SHOULD tell you the fire is in the basement. If there is NO IDEA where the fire is the line goes in charged. I never advocated going in with an uncharged line if you don't know where the fire is or heat and smoke conditions called for a charged line.

    If your 360 or size-up is so poor that you have no indication that the roof is compromised a charged handline going in with you is the least of your concerns. I am curious though how a charged hoseline prevents you from being injured or killed as you are being crushed by the roof falling on you. Could you elaborate on this? I am willing to learn.

    I NEVER advocated crawling right up to the fire in a warehouse, or anywhere else for that matter. I have clealy stated repeatedly that you would advance to a safe place, or dstance, fom the fire before calling for water. If you do that the risk from explosion (Backdraft anyone?) inside a warehouse would be minimized. Not every warehouse contains flammable liquids, chemicals, or explosives. Some have things like food, paper goods, clothing, lumber, building materials, you know Class A materials. A good program of pre-planning would help with tactical decision making.

    Again, if conditions clearly call for a charged line then that is what you should enter with. Perhaps less experienced crews should ALWAYS enter with a charged line. I am not telling anyone what they should do. I am saying what I would do, what MY FDs do.

    Easy old timer.. You don't have control over accidents while responding.. But however, you do have control of wether or not you've got a charged hose line in a fire building.. And I don't know what you meant by saying "experienced" in all caps but I'll be the nice guy and ignore that.. I could through ou scenarios all day.. YOu say perform a 360.. What if I've got smoke showing on condos that are attached for a half mile... No ones wrong here.. Like I said a while ago, it ALL DEPENDS On where your work, what your sops say, and whether you want to burn alive or not... Lol joking joking
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    I think FyredUp is here to pick fights not discuss tactics seriously though. I wasn't saying your wrong and you didn't have to respond all smart like.. Be calm, ffing is stressfull enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    Easy old timer.. You don't have control over accidents while responding.. But however, you do have control of wether or not you've got a charged hose line in a fire building.. And I don't know what you meant by saying "experienced" in all caps but I'll be the nice guy and ignore that.. I could through ou scenarios all day.. YOu say perform a 360.. What if I've got smoke showing on condos that are attached for a half mile... No ones wrong here.. Like I said a while ago, it ALL DEPENDS On where your work, what your sops say, and whether you want to burn alive or not... Lol joking joking
    If you have smoke showing on condos, you advance dry to a point where you are still safe, charge the line, then advance and kill the fire.

    Obviously if the building is a half mile long a 360 by the first arriving unit is impractical. So how many condos do you have in YOUR area that are 2600 feet long of connected buildings? Or is this just another made up thing to prove whatever you point is?

    No sorry TommyBoy, you don't get to tell me I am wrong for the tactics of my departments over multiple posts, and then try to make yourself look better by now saying that nobody is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    I think FyredUp is here to pick fights not discuss tactics seriously though. I wasn't saying your wrong and you didn't have to respond all smart like.. Be calm, ffing is stressfull enough
    And I never told you YOU were wrong in what YOU do. YOU argued with me and posted ludicrous scenarios to try and prove me and my depatment's procedures wrong. Let me type this really slow for you so maybe you can comprehend it this time...I don't give a flying turd how you do what you do on your FD, and I don't care if you don't like how we do things either. I am not trying to change YOUR mind and you for damn sure won't change mine.

    By the way, I did ask you a simple question related to one of your laughable scenarios above and you failed to answer it so I will ask you again. How does a charged hoseline prevent you from being injured or killed when the roof collapses on you?

    I guess I have a couple of other questions for you: How long have you been a firefighter? Are you an Atlanta firefighter?
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-11-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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    The only correct answer is "depends".
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    FyredUp.. I never once said you were wrong. I've said several times that it DEPENDS!!!!. And in the post were I made up the crazy scenerios, I was actually responded to the post above me from someone else.. And yes we do have condos/ town homes that stretch connected that far. . I guess I'll have to forgive you for being grumpy, because that tend to come with age.. How can you let posts on a forum upset you so!?!?
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    The only correct answer is "depends".


    agreed!!! I should have just said that only
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    FyredUp.. I never once said you were wrong. I've said several times that it DEPENDS!!!!. And in the post were I made up the crazy scenerios, I was actually responded to the post above me from someone else.. And yes we do have condos/ town homes that stretch connected that far. . I guess I'll have to forgive you for being grumpy, because that tend to come with age.. How can you let posts on a forum upset you so!?!?
    You are a funny man. Nice diversion going to the old age and grumpy thing. I guess when you can't answer a few simple questions this is all you have.

    How does a charged hoseline stop you fom being injured or killed when the roof collapses on you?

    How long have you been a firefighter?

    Are you a City of Atlanta firefighter? I have a friend on the Atlants FD.

    Are you seriously telling me you have condo complexes that are 2600 feet long? Give me the address because I would LOVE to Google that and look at some pictures of a complex that size.
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    Didn't mean to hurt any feelings! If I said you were wrong, I apologize!! That's not what I meant when posting anything. I was just trying to explain my thought process.

    -No I do not work for the city of Atlanta.. I work for a county that borders Fulton (the county that atl is considered to be in).

    - no the housing I was speeking of is not 2600''..

    - and a collapse roof would not always kill you but could possibly leave you unexpectedly surrounded by fire.. And when I threw this scenario out I WANSNT RESPONDING TO YOU. And yes it's all very unlikely and could be avoided with an experienced crew (which unfortuantely won't always be the case)

    - I've been a fireman for 8 years... (no I'm sure not a tenth as long as you) At a house that runs a combined total of about 7000-8000 calls a year between 1 rescue- 1 engine- and 1 tiller truck (which only responded to fires, confirmed pins, and spec op calls.. The truck I've been on for the past 4 years) NOt bragging or saying that's a lot, just want you to understand I do have a little EXPERIENCE!

    I never once was trying to be smart or say you were wrong.. Seriously I meant no negative things towards you!! Can't we just all get along!?!? I've read a lot of posts on this forum that you've posted and you always give good advice.. I was just saying I might do things differently! Be happy!! Oh and happy valentines day!!
    Last edited by TillamanTrk1; 02-12-2012 at 03:24 AM.
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