Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 53
  1. #21
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    31

    Default

    FyredUp, Yes Fried. Mistake in my spelling. The book is awsome! I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or validate a point. There are many different ways to do something. I am not saying anyone is wrong or right. I just thought it interesting that all of these men say pretty much the same thing.
    As Company officers going to a large one story building where smoke is pushing and visibility is low or zero, we can agree that locating this fire will be difficult, so for me a charged hoseline is warranted before entering. For me if it is a large building maybe a different enterance door should be used. I don't think the front door has to be used as the main point for the attack line, although it may be the preferred way at most fires. I am not saying anyone is wrong here, for me on the fire floor for the most part the line should have water.
    Last edited by Capt-nj; 11-09-2011 at 07:45 PM.


  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Point, VA
    Posts
    435

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    As Company officers going to a large one story building where smoke is pushing and visibility is low or zero, we can agree that locating this fire will be difficult, so for me a charged hoseline is warranted before entering. For me if it is a large building maybe a different enterance door should be used. I don't think the front door has to be used as the main point for the attack line, although it may be the preferred way at most fires. I am not saying anyone is wrong here, for me on the fire floor for the most part the line should have water.
    No knock, just opinion, but if we are talking large (we've been talking commercial) building with smoke pushing and visibility low to zero, my crew is not advancing anything until we get it opened up. If it is still showing that, then we are flowing large caliber streams from numerous openings. If it clears up and lights off after we open it up it probably wasnt too much and the structure probably isnt involved. We will consider advancing hoseline in then. Charged or uncharged will be determined by smoke and building conditions.

  3. #23
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Let me be clear, I would NEVER advance a dry line into an area of a building pushing smoke, or even simply charged with smoke. That is NOT a safe environment. My thoughts were we can advance a line through an area with no smoke, or perhaps light hazy smoke, up to a point of refuge, charrge the line and then effect extinguishment. I never once said advance into hostile conditions before charging the line. But like someone else said here I would not advance 400 feet of charged line through smoke and heat free building space. It is time wasting and energy sapping for no reason.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  4. #24
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    As with anything in the fire service you cannot say never or always. You have to use you skills and ablities to determine the best course of action. My personal thought is most SFD fires I am going to charge the line at the front door. That is not to say I will always wait for the line to be charge. If the rescue or truck company is already inside searching and that line needs to get in place PDQ (I.E. keeping it in check with the can) I will start the advance and the pump operator will charge it. it will speed the streatch up. That is the exception not the norm. On commercial it all depends. One again the conditions both scene and fire are going to determine. I have done it both ways. I have streached 700 ft into a factory dry before. the smoke layer was about 15 ft off the ground. It was not practical to drag that much charged line. Common sense goes a long way!!!

    Being able to read the smoke and seeing other signs is a true assest in making this decison.

  5. #25
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    Just cause I can't think of a reason why to have an uncharged line in a fire room I looked up line advancement in the books I have. Norman, Dunn, Avillo, Trepek, Smith, Fryed(1960's), Clark, IFSTA, and Delmar all say the samething. A line should alway be charged on the fire floor. Even if the stretch will be long. Now I know fire doors with auxillary appliances can call for different tactics, but the general rule is, on the fire floor have it charged.
    The "fire floor" and the "fire room" are two very different things.

    There are a great many instances where charging the line simply because you have it on the fire floor is unwarranted.

    I have read the same books you are citing. Nothing in my interpretation of those sources says that a line should ALWAYS be charged on the fire floor nor is that the way its done in practicality in a great number of occupancy types.

  6. #26
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    31

    Default

    jakesdad

    This depends on the context of the building inwhich we are disscussing. The general rule is to have water on the fire floor. You are correct and won't get an argument from me about stretching dry in a fire resistive building, say a Multiple Dwelling if condition allow. (Like the door to the fire apartment being closed). We can in this instants stretch dry right to the door of the fire apartment. The building's constuction and fire safety features allows us to do this in a safe mannor.

    We never stretch dry above the fire. We don't stretch dry into a house with the basement on fire. That line is charged at the door. It's a hard stretch looking for cellar stair with a charged line with smoke and heat. We have this line charged for the same reasons we should have it charged on the fire floor in most cases, our safety until we reach the fire for extingishment.

    There are no absolutes in this business, and I do think I get where you are coming from. For me, in general terms. Stretching dry on the fire floor is a hard sell.

    Be safe
    Last edited by Capt-nj; 12-13-2011 at 11:07 PM.

  7. #27
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    jakesdad

    This depends on the context of the building inwhich we are disscussing. The general rule is to have water on the fire floor. You are correct and won't get an argument from me about stretching dry in a fire resistive building, say a Multiple Dwelling if condition allow. (Like the door to the fire apartment being closed). We can in this instants stretch dry right to the door of the fire apartment. The building's constuction and fire safety features allows us to do this in a safe mannor.

    We never stretch dry above the fire. We don't stretch dry into a house with the basement on fire. That line is charged at the door. It's a hard stretch looking for cellar stair with a charged line with smoke and heat. We have this line charged for the same reasons we should have it charged on the fire floor in most cases, our safety until we reach the fire for extingishment.

    There are no absolutes in this business, and I do think I get where you are coming from. For me, in general terms. Stretching dry on the fire floor is a hard sell.

    Be safe
    I would respectfully disagree and say the general rule is to have water in the "fire area" which may or may not be the fire floor.

    And I believe the most important factor in determining where the line is charged is not the building or occupancy type but rather the control of the door to the fire area.

    There is no reason why a dry line can't be stretched to the fire area as long as this door is controlled, regardless of building or occupancy type.

    If your experience is mostly private dwellings, charging the line on the fire floor is probably what you do most often since bedroom doors are seldom controlled.

    But if your experience is in multiple dwellings, both fireproof and non-fireproof, stretching a dry line to the fire area (which may be the fire apartment or a room within the fire apartment) is both safe and warranted.

    Staffing, dedicated truck companies and manpower usually dictate the ability to locate and control the apartment/fire room door ahead of the line. In departments where those things are lacking, charging the line at the actual door may be impractical. But in departments where they are not, it is a fairly routine and effective tactic.

  8. #28
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    31

    Default

    I think you are dead right. If you have control of the door and can confine the fire, stretching dry to the fire apartment is exceptable. I think we differ on where to charge the line.

    I feel that it is risky to flake an uncharged hose into an apartment right up to the room that is on fire even if the door is controlled. Regardless of the construction type. There are so many variables that can swing a routine content fire into a major incident. I would hate to get caught without water if something goes wrong, or worse yet, we miss and pass fire going to where we think it is. It happens. I've passed fire unknowningly!!

    There are just so many what ifs. If it 's not charges how do we know we have a reliable water source, or that there is nothing impeding flow to our nozzle. What if we experience a rapid change in conditions, visability, heat. With that charged line I can now deal with the changes rapidly. Not having to call for the water, bleed the line, and most importantly for me anyway(guys think I and crazy) know that my line is not caught under a doorway or kinked again impeding my water.

    I get where you are coming from and respect your opinions. I Know there is exceptions to ever rule and circumstances dictate. But for me as a general rule the line should have water on the fire floor.

    I would just like to say I enjoyed writing on thread with you. Your posts are well thought and cordial, not combative and well understood.

    Be safe brother

  9. #29
    Forum Member TillamanTrk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Metro-Atlanta
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Coming from a Dept that fights a good bit of fire and do it well, our SOP's say NEVER! Its one thing if you've got to advance a line up several flights of stairs on the outside of a structure but unless youve got more than 2-3 stories to advance a line internally and have no stand pipe, then I'd say never!
    "....train as if your life depends on it, because one day it could.."
    .....Leather Head N6A
    Tillerman..... The best job in the FD!!!

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Point, VA
    Posts
    435

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    Coming from a Dept that fights a good bit of fire and do it well, our SOP's say NEVER!
    Never in a fire room or anywhere in the structure? For example you pull up to a 2-story with smoke from the soffits and gable ends - nowhere else. Will you pull hose to the top of the stairway uncharged or charge outside the front door?
    Last edited by Spencer534; 01-25-2012 at 03:43 PM.

  11. #31
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    virginia
    Posts
    537

    Default

    why would you not charge the line at the front door. You have to stop to mask up, charge it whilie the crew is doing that. it limits the radio traffic of having to call for the line to be charged and any varibles such as kinks at corners or under doorways. Pulling a line to a 2nd floor is not that difficult in a single family dwelling. Now if you are taking about apartments or other larger building it all depends.

  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    West Point, VA
    Posts
    435

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    why would you not charge the line at the front door. You have to stop to mask up, charge it whilie the crew is doing that. it limits the radio traffic of having to call for the line to be charged and any varibles such as kinks at corners or under doorways. Pulling a line to a 2nd floor is not that difficult in a single family dwelling. Now if you are taking about apartments or other larger building it all depends.
    Good point about worrying about the kinks and doorways. My point was about "NEVER" pulling it inside the structure. Not sure I agree with "NEVER".

  13. #33
    Forum Member TillamanTrk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Metro-Atlanta
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    Never in a fire room or anywhere in the structure? For example you pull up to a 2-story with smoke from the soffits and gable ends - nowhere else. Will you pull hose to the top of the stairway uncharged or charge outside the front door?
    We will always charge the initial attack line prior entering the structure.. AND we use 2" pre-connects... You never know what could happen once you've entered the structure... you might need that water quicker than you think..
    "....train as if your life depends on it, because one day it could.."
    .....Leather Head N6A
    Tillerman..... The best job in the FD!!!

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    We will always charge the initial attack line prior entering the structure.. AND we use 2" pre-connects... You never know what could happen once you've entered the structure... you might need that water quicker than you think..
    ALWAYS...is a long time. If we roll up on a large factory, warehouse, or business and the fire is deep into the building, or on an upper floor, it is counterproductive to charge the line at the front door before entering. You could be talking about a charged line stretch of hundreds of feet through the building to get to the fire. I have used a dry stretch on the first floor of a SFD to the bottom of the stairs before calling for water if the fire is on the second floor.

    The key is a good 360 and size up to detemine the best way to advance the attack line. Another determining factor would be the experience level of the crew. A more experienced crew would be better practiced at reading the incident and how far they could go safely dry. A less experienced crew may want to ALWAYS have a charged line with them.

    By the way, one of the POC FDs I run with uses 2 inch handlines exclusively with preconnects of 200 and 300 feet. And flows from 160 to 300 gpm. My career FD, and the other POC FD, I run with use 1 3/4 inch preconnects of between 100 and 250 feet.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-09-2012 at 12:59 AM.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  15. #35
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    The State of N.J.
    Posts
    1,389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    ALWAYS...is a long time. If we roll up on a large factory, warehouse, or business and the fire is deep into the building, or on an upper floor, it is counterproductive to charge the line at the front door before entering. You could be talking about a charged line stretch of hundreds of feet through the building to get to the fire. I have used a dry stretch on the first floor of a SFD to the bottom of the stairs before calling for water if the fire is on the second floor..
    I agree on waiting to charge the line until needed. We have 3-4-5 story walk ups with no standpipe. While they will "always" charge before entering, we would never charge a line before entering the building for an upper floor fire.
    We do not have pre-connects on our engines.

  16. #36
    Forum Member TillamanTrk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Metro-Atlanta
    Posts
    113

    Default

    In my original response I said Unless I've got to go up several stories with no stand pipe.. your right about "always"!! There are going to be certain circumstances.. But 99.9% of the time I will charge an initial attack line prior to entry... But also in my first due, 99% of the fires I'm fighting are single-family/Multi-family dwellings were The fire is just 50-150' from the engine!

    And we have 2 pre-connects both 2" 200' with dual force fog nozzle that can put out anywhere from 135-250 gpm depending on what you pump to it and the setting on the nozzle (low pressure- standard pressure). Not necessarily my choice but its what they give us and we make it work! haha!
    Last edited by thomasldixon33; 02-09-2012 at 09:09 PM.
    "....train as if your life depends on it, because one day it could.."
    .....Leather Head N6A
    Tillerman..... The best job in the FD!!!

  17. #37
    Forum Member TillamanTrk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Metro-Atlanta
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    I agree on waiting to charge the line until needed. We have 3-4-5 story walk ups with no standpipe. While they will "always" charge before entering, we would never charge a line before entering the building for an upper floor fire.
    We do not have pre-connects on our engines.
    I agree on waiting if you've got several stories to go up with no standpipe..
    "....train as if your life depends on it, because one day it could.."
    .....Leather Head N6A
    Tillerman..... The best job in the FD!!!

  18. #38
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    49

    Default

    From what I've learned, I would think that the rule of thumb is no, but a charged line is hard to move around and isn't flexible, so if you have some idea of the layout and KNOW it will be a bunch of corners and turns and the fire is more towards the interior of the structure, then sure. But be prepared for anything and get that line charged at moments notice.
    Keep my mouth shut and ears open.
    Never forget 9/11/01, RIP Uncle James Ruggiero.

  19. #39
    Forum Member TillamanTrk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Metro-Atlanta
    Posts
    113

    Default

    so you think you know the layout of this structure and you think you know where most of the fire is.. so you walk in with your uncharged hoseline and within 20-30' you fall through the floor.. or the roof caves on you.. or there is somesort of explosion ( specially in a warehouse scenario) and your on the ground, on fire, with an uncharged hoseline.. By the time you get oriented, get to your radio, call a mayday and water, and the time it takes for the hose to get charged....... your probably burnt toast..


    Plan for the worst, hope for the best...
    "....train as if your life depends on it, because one day it could.."
    .....Leather Head N6A
    Tillerman..... The best job in the FD!!!

  20. #40
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thomasldixon33 View Post
    so you think you know the layout of this structure and you think you know where most of the fire is.. so you walk in with your uncharged hoseline and within 20-30' you fall through the floor.. or the roof caves on you.. or there is somesort of explosion ( specially in a warehouse scenario) and your on the ground, on fire, with an uncharged hoseline.. By the time you get oriented, get to your radio, call a mayday and water, and the time it takes for the hose to get charged....... your probably burnt toast..


    Plan for the worst, hope for the best...
    Sure, and you could get killed in an apparatus accident en route to the scene. Now can we get back to serious, reality based discussion of the topic, or do you want to play stupid games with what ifs?

    I said quite clearly, and concisely, that a 360 and a good size-up were important elements to a proper hose stretch. An EXPERIENCED crew will know when it is proper to stretch dry and when it is smarter to charge the line at the door. I also never said to advance a dry line into a smoke or heat filled area. Seriously, only a complete moron would advance a dryline into heavy smoke and heat.

    A warehouse, or big box store, fire can mean stretches of hundreds feet into the building. How many firefighters can you muster to manhandle 200 to 400 feet of charged 2 1/2 inside a building? Because even with 2 inch you aren't going over 300 feet with out high friction loss for higher flows.

    Okay let's talk about your scenarios...

    Basement fire where you fall through the floor...360 and size-up SHOULD tell you the fire is in the basement. If there is NO IDEA where the fire is the line goes in charged. I never advocated going in with an uncharged line if you don't know where the fire is or heat and smoke conditions called for a charged line.

    If your 360 or size-up is so poor that you have no indication that the roof is compromised a charged handline going in with you is the least of your concerns. I am curious though how a charged hoseline prevents you from being injured or killed as you are being crushed by the roof falling on you. Could you elaborate on this? I am willing to learn.

    I NEVER advocated crawling right up to the fire in a warehouse, or anywhere else for that matter. I have clealy stated repeatedly that you would advance to a safe place, or dstance, fom the fire before calling for water. If you do that the risk from explosion (Backdraft anyone?) inside a warehouse would be minimized. Not every warehouse contains flammable liquids, chemicals, or explosives. Some have things like food, paper goods, clothing, lumber, building materials, you know Class A materials. A good program of pre-planning would help with tactical decision making.

    Again, if conditions clearly call for a charged line then that is what you should enter with. Perhaps less experienced crews should ALWAYS enter with a charged line. I am not telling anyone what they should do. I am saying what I would do, what MY FDs do.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-10-2012 at 12:56 AM.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Did you respond to WTC???
    By E40FDNYL35 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 197
    Last Post: 04-21-2011, 07:28 PM
  2. Why the 1 3/4 and fog nozzle for standpipe operations?
    By stugats in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 02-20-2009, 06:24 PM
  3. ISO Company Personnel
    By FIRE549 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 06:15 PM
  4. Interspiro SCBA low pressure hose failure
    By bgreene in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-11-2007, 11:25 PM
  5. Quints
    By imtxff44 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-29-2003, 12:16 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts