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    Default Uncharged attack hose

    Can anyone tell me when it is ok to take a dry attack hose into the fire room??? I can understand taking a dry hose into the building itself if it is a large building or multiple stories and then you charge it, bleed it and check your pattern before going into the actual fire room. Anyways, in your opinions is there ever an appropriate time that you should take an uncharged attack line into the fire room???

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    It would depend on the size of the room. If the room was massive and the fire not very big, then maybe you would so you could get in closer. But even then, their would have to be a good reason. But otherwise the answer would be no because you would be putting yourself at risk being in an involved room without a proven water supply yet.

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    Never!! No exceptions to this rule in my opinion..

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    I'm big on stretching dry as far as you can, but to enter the fire room with an uncharged line seems stupid to me.

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    As a general practice - no, you would not take an uncharged line into a fire room.

    Now - for the exceptions - at least one I can think of in our area.

    I can think of one production factory (steel assembly) where, for a small fire in a machine, you may carry a high rise pack to a central standpipe connection rather than stretching a charged line from the door.

    Mind you, this particular facility has around 80,000 sqaure feet with 40ft ceilings in a single 'room'. They do fitting and assembly, not fabrication or welding here. This is a different animal to talk about with fire attack. If its a single machine, near the center, you may have a stretch of 500' to just get to it. Sprinklers are high in the cieling and the fire load is pretty low. (mostly just steel). This is a VERY different room than your typical 'fire room'.

    Still - for general practice, I want a 'bled and ready line' before I go into a fire room. (we use straight stream CAFS so no real pattern to set)

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    usually you would not advance a dry line into the fire room, a few notable exceptions have been listed so far.

    I would expect size of the room, and size of the fire, would influence the decision. The training level and experience of the crew and/or officer would play a HUGE part in the decision whether to continue on with a dry line or not. A more experienced crew may do a better job reading the fire, the structure, and possible fire spread.
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    Question for the original poster.........are you refering to residential, commercial/industrial or all of the above ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by THEENGINEGOES View Post
    Question for the original poster.........are you refering to residential, commercial/industrial or all of the above ?
    Referring to all types really, however, I ask this not because I dont have my own opinion, but simply to prove a point to myself. Where I work 99% of the fires we do are 1 story wood frame residential with no more than 1600sq ft. I just can not see a time where it would be a good decision to take in a dry line at all, let alone into the fire room. Thanks for the responses.

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    Cool Dry Hose Line

    I agree with many here that not inside of the actual fire room.

    As far as if inside the fire building I say yes..... In my previous District we had many Garden Style Apartments. We would "deep stretch" in, wye that line into (2) lines, ensure the wye was closed and then charge the deep stretch line and then take an uncharged line inside. The general layout was large living area with a long hallway so we would get things situated inside the living area (hose flaked behind us, line charged-called for water at the FF at the wye, BA Masks clipped-in if not done prior) and then advance down the hallway. On a couple of occasions this worked well for us because on our Primary we came across victims so we were able to make the "grab" while assigning another Crew Fire Attack.

    One time that I think I would not bring a charged line would be if I pulled-up and there were no indications of a working fire (the Occupant stating the fire is small or contained, little to no pressurized smoke visible, no smell of smoke and no heat inside). I have my Guys grab the "Can" and we investigate, if we find we can handle with the can then we handle it. If not, then the next due Crew drags the line in while we "brown" the fire down and transition to a Primary Search.
    Last edited by mikeyboy; 11-06-2011 at 03:25 PM. Reason: I had another thought.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by irons33fd View Post
    Referring to all types really, however, I ask this not because I dont have my own opinion, but simply to prove a point to myself. Where I work 99% of the fires we do are 1 story wood frame residential with no more than 1600sq ft. I just can not see a time where it would be a good decision to take in a dry line at all, let alone into the fire room. Thanks for the responses.
    I figured you were refering to private dwellings. That said, i will stick to my original post.......not a smart decision to stretch dry into the fire room
    Last edited by THEENGINEGOES; 11-06-2011 at 06:18 PM.

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    Stove fire, slight extension to cabinets over stove. Maybe

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    are you asking for opinions ? or for some one to validate yours ?
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by irons33fd View Post
    Can anyone tell me when it is ok to take a dry attack hose into the fire room??? I can understand taking a dry hose into the building itself if it is a large building or multiple stories and then you charge it, bleed it and check your pattern before going into the actual fire room. Anyways, in your opinions is there ever an appropriate time that you should take an uncharged attack line into the fire room???
    No........

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    Quote Originally Posted by irons33fd View Post
    Can anyone tell me when it is ok to take a dry attack hose into the fire room??? I can understand taking a dry hose into the building itself if it is a large building or multiple stories and then you charge it, bleed it and check your pattern before going into the actual fire room. Anyways, in your opinions is there ever an appropriate time that you should take an uncharged attack line into the fire room???
    Does the room contain known large amounts of materials which react badly to water.

    It is highly unlikely that you would encounter a situation like that without having prior knowledge of the unique fire load and if that fire is larger than can be extinguished with the correct extinguisher, you and your little line better exit stage left you are about to have a real fireworks show.

    As for anything else......CHARGE IT !!!

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    In my humble, or not so humble for those that know me, opinion, setting a hard and fast rule that you NEVER advance a dry line into the fire room may not be the best choice.

    Obviously, if you are advancing into a SFD and the fire is in a bedroom, or the kitchen, or some other room like that, you wouldn't go into those rooms involved in fire without charging the line. The line gets a little blurry when you talk about commercial, or super large occupancies, where the fire "room" may be something like 100 by 200 or greater. Would you charge the line at the door for a fire in the back of a big box store? Or would you advance as far as you could dry, stop in a safe place, call for water and then finish the advance? To me it is a no brainer, advance dry as far as I can SAFELY, then call for water and finish the advance.

    To each his own, but a dry advance around stock and down aisles is far easier than a charged line. Both will work and if your SOGs say NEVER enter the fire "room" without a charged line then that is the rules you follow. We leave the decidion up to the company officer and count on their experience and knowledge to make the right choice.
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    Just cause I can't think of a reason why to have an uncharged line in a fire room I looked up line advancement in the books I have. Norman, Dunn, Avillo, Trepek, Smith, Fryed(1960's), Clark, IFSTA, and Delmar all say the samething. A line should alway be charged on the fire floor. Even if the stretch will be long. Now I know fire doors with auxillary appliances can call for different tactics, but the general rule is, on the fire floor have it charged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    Just cause I can't think of a reason why to have an uncharged line in a fire room I looked up line advancement in the books I have. Norman, Dunn, Avillo, Trepek, Smith, Fryed(1960's), Clark, IFSTA, and Delmar all say the samething. A line should alway be charged on the fire floor. Even if the stretch will be long. Now I know fire doors with auxillary appliances can call for different tactics, but the general rule is, on the fire floor have it charged.
    Sure thing, let's have a minimum staffed engine company advance a charged line a couple hundred feet through a big box store just to get to the fire. I am NOT saying advance right up to the fire, that makes no sense at all. I am simply saying why expend all that energy dragging the wet line when it isn't necessary.

    When you said Fyred as one of your authors were you talking about Emanuel Fried and his book Fireground Tacics? I have read that book and while parts of it are obviously dated, the tactical aspects are still relevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    ...in the books I have. Norman, Dunn, Avillo, Trepek, Smith, Fryed(1960's), Clark, IFSTA, and Delmar all say the samething...
    Well, there you go....just throw enough books at the fire and it will go out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    Just cause I can't think of a reason why to have an uncharged line in a fire room I looked up line advancement in the books I have. Norman, Dunn, Avillo, Trepek, Smith, Fryed(1960's), Clark, IFSTA, and Delmar all say the samething. A line should alway be charged on the fire floor. Even if the stretch will be long. Now I know fire doors with auxillary appliances can call for different tactics, but the general rule is, on the fire floor have it charged.
    And for good reason.

    Just because you may have the Engine tied to a good water source and the hoseline is complete. Their is no guarantee that when you call for the water that the water will reach the nozzle at the pressure you desire. Things like a kink, a hose trapped under a door that will become trapped when charged or even a burst section will not be discovered untill the line is charged. That is why you charge the line before you enter the location where the fire is. Or even sooner. The time to discover a problem is not when you are staring fire in the face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    And for good reason.

    Just because you may have the Engine tied to a good water source and the hoseline is complete. Their is no guarantee that when you call for the water that the water will reach the nozzle at the pressure you desire. Things like a kink, a hose trapped under a door that will become trapped when charged or even a burst section will not be discovered untill the line is charged. That is why you charge the line before you enter the location where the fire is. Or even sooner. The time to discover a problem is not when you are staring fire in the face.
    Devils advocate. For some occupancies, you may not know the stretch you will need before you start. Take the assembly factory I mentioned earlier. What if you put 400' of hose on, charge it and go but find you really need that extra 100'? Do you back out, break the hose, add the section, charge it again and then advance it again?

    There are very few absolutes in life. This is one of those - 'Most of the Time' things. A good officer will know when you might want to do things a little differently for those special case places - the 1% or less things.

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    FyredUp, Yes Fried. Mistake in my spelling. The book is awsome! I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or validate a point. There are many different ways to do something. I am not saying anyone is wrong or right. I just thought it interesting that all of these men say pretty much the same thing.
    As Company officers going to a large one story building where smoke is pushing and visibility is low or zero, we can agree that locating this fire will be difficult, so for me a charged hoseline is warranted before entering. For me if it is a large building maybe a different enterance door should be used. I don't think the front door has to be used as the main point for the attack line, although it may be the preferred way at most fires. I am not saying anyone is wrong here, for me on the fire floor for the most part the line should have water.
    Last edited by Capt-nj; 11-09-2011 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    As Company officers going to a large one story building where smoke is pushing and visibility is low or zero, we can agree that locating this fire will be difficult, so for me a charged hoseline is warranted before entering. For me if it is a large building maybe a different enterance door should be used. I don't think the front door has to be used as the main point for the attack line, although it may be the preferred way at most fires. I am not saying anyone is wrong here, for me on the fire floor for the most part the line should have water.
    No knock, just opinion, but if we are talking large (we've been talking commercial) building with smoke pushing and visibility low to zero, my crew is not advancing anything until we get it opened up. If it is still showing that, then we are flowing large caliber streams from numerous openings. If it clears up and lights off after we open it up it probably wasnt too much and the structure probably isnt involved. We will consider advancing hoseline in then. Charged or uncharged will be determined by smoke and building conditions.

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    Let me be clear, I would NEVER advance a dry line into an area of a building pushing smoke, or even simply charged with smoke. That is NOT a safe environment. My thoughts were we can advance a line through an area with no smoke, or perhaps light hazy smoke, up to a point of refuge, charrge the line and then effect extinguishment. I never once said advance into hostile conditions before charging the line. But like someone else said here I would not advance 400 feet of charged line through smoke and heat free building space. It is time wasting and energy sapping for no reason.
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    As with anything in the fire service you cannot say never or always. You have to use you skills and ablities to determine the best course of action. My personal thought is most SFD fires I am going to charge the line at the front door. That is not to say I will always wait for the line to be charge. If the rescue or truck company is already inside searching and that line needs to get in place PDQ (I.E. keeping it in check with the can) I will start the advance and the pump operator will charge it. it will speed the streatch up. That is the exception not the norm. On commercial it all depends. One again the conditions both scene and fire are going to determine. I have done it both ways. I have streached 700 ft into a factory dry before. the smoke layer was about 15 ft off the ground. It was not practical to drag that much charged line. Common sense goes a long way!!!

    Being able to read the smoke and seeing other signs is a true assest in making this decison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt-nj View Post
    Just cause I can't think of a reason why to have an uncharged line in a fire room I looked up line advancement in the books I have. Norman, Dunn, Avillo, Trepek, Smith, Fryed(1960's), Clark, IFSTA, and Delmar all say the samething. A line should alway be charged on the fire floor. Even if the stretch will be long. Now I know fire doors with auxillary appliances can call for different tactics, but the general rule is, on the fire floor have it charged.
    The "fire floor" and the "fire room" are two very different things.

    There are a great many instances where charging the line simply because you have it on the fire floor is unwarranted.

    I have read the same books you are citing. Nothing in my interpretation of those sources says that a line should ALWAYS be charged on the fire floor nor is that the way its done in practicality in a great number of occupancy types.

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