1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'll start putting up the signs at the district lines tomorrow.

    Dumb@@@.
    Calling me names doesn't change the reality that you are deceiving your citizens by calling people firefighters that aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Must be nice to live in your world where you have the manpower to only take the volunteers that can go interior. If departments here did that they would have half the manpower they have now and would be unable to function. Exterior firefighters in this part of the world are not a luxury .. They are a necessity.
    Or you could let folks know you are incapable of providing proper fire protection to the citizens and give them options.
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    One can train a dog to pee on a fire, but it hardly makes the dog a firefighter...
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    For those saying "educate your public and they will pay".....are you saying the many cities that have laid guys off in the very recent past simply aren't telling the public the right things? Are those FD's failing their public because the money is being cut?


    cuz that's what your telling LA.
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    What's a cuz?

    If the public knew where a majority of that money went instead of the fire department, they'd express their disgust. There almost always a root cause to departments being shut down and a complete absence of money is rarely one. The misappropriation of money almost always the case. While there will be a number who are truly out of money, it isn't because they had a fire department. If you want to bring this point up then the following question begs to be asked. Is ok to give cash strapped communities a higher number of less efficient manpower or cut out the extra fat and only allow them to pay for guys who can do more?
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    Really All this reasoning is just skewed (both ways). Frankly I would rather have a department where all the guys are certified drivers and 50% are certified interior, than have one where 50% are certified drivers and they are all certified interior. Why, because the 100% certified drivers can run ALL the calls regardless of whether they are fire calls warranting interior attacks or not, and preform some function on them all where as the 50% certified drivers you could run into situations where you have NO one running the call (in an all volly setting). Why not say your not a firefighter if you can't drive.


    What about basic pump ops, you have 30 guys at your department who are all interior qualified (100% of the members) but only 10 can pump a truck, well in a all volly department what if all your interior members show up on scene but no one can pump water....what good are your "interior" folks who we are saying can "do it all".

    So frankly your not a firefighter if you can't pump and drive and fight interior

    And if there is a structure fire in a big rural volly area and you respond a truck and can drive and pump and go interior, but no one on scene can draft water from a static source properly or run a water shuttle and your nearest tanker is 20 minutes out and your **** out of luck after you run out of water. Then your interior guys are no good anymore either.

    So to be a firefighter you must be able to drive, pump, draft water from any conceivable source you could run into, and fight fire interior.

    But wait, what about the situations where a company operates in the area with hazardous materials and a fire breaks out at their commercial structure with multiple entrapment's. Now to preform basic firefighting duty you need to be able to understand the severity of the incident, gear up properly, and be able to fight the fire interior and preform a basic search and rescue in a very hazardous environment that will call for Haz-Mat techs. But goodness knows you would want everyone on scene to be a Tech because what would happen if only non techs showed up to that call, they would not be able to preform a "basic" search and rescue to save life and an interior fire attack, unless of course you sat down with the owners of the building and all the employees and let them know up front (because you would not want to deceive them) that you would be unable to make a fire attack on their building with all your personnel and that your staff was unable to preform a basic search and rescue....

    So to be a "firefighter" you must be able to drive all the apparatuses, pump them all, draft from any water source possible, be able to shuttle water, fight fire interior in a variety of settings, and be able to handle Haz-Mat fires.




    right...but what about when you break a mirror in front of a black cat after you walk under a ladder at a fire scene with multiple entrapment's when a mayday is called right after you run out of water and a natural gas explosion occurs at a house where an active meth lab was....wait...your "firefighters" aren't all qualified to the same level to handle the scene...well if they aren't trained to the same level then goodness, some must not be firefighters....




    I go back to my first post in this thread, A firefighter is what the community needs them to be, as long as they meet (as a team, because firefighting is a team sport...get it...) community and department expectations in how they get the job done. When I am running a call, any call in the world, I want one ropes guru, one medical guru, one Haz-Mat guru, one extrication guru, one guy who pumps and runs command really well, and one RIT and rescue guru to round out my crew of 6. Because I don't (and the community does not) expect everyone to know everything, they expect some people to be stronger at some topics than others and as a team the fire department will accomplish the task they called for. Now depending upon what type of calls the community is needing assistance with depends upon the breakdown of the type of firefighters you need.
    Last edited by Rialaigh; 11-23-2011 at 01:03 AM.

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    No, to be a driver engineer, you have to know how to drive and pump an apparatus. To be a firefighter, you have to fight fire. How is this so confusing? I still fill in as a driver in both my departments. If I'm first in at my volly, I can go from engineer to command to firefighter in the matter of minutes. Just because I'm IC until a higher rank arrives doesn't make me chief. Just because you're a member of a fire department doesn't make you a firefighter. Why is this so difficult?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Paying one person to do less of the job a firefighter can do is robbing them blind.

    [COLOR="Red"]You do realize that we have been talking about volunteers, not paid staff, right?

    If you are hiring paid staff, and thier primary functiion is response and fire operations, yes, they must be interior capable. If thier primary functiion is not response, then obviously, that becomes less important especially if thier primary function requires specialized training./COLOR]

    If I sold two cars at the same price but one of them didn't have an interior but you didn't know that until it's too late, are you not robbing the consumer? Good old bait and switch. We have 30 firefighters to protect you at night *But only 15 will go in and get you, the others will stand outside and pump the truck waiting for you to walk out*

    .... Or the other 15 could be taking care of water supply, driving tankers, throwing ladders, setting up fans, securing utilities, putting up lights, stretching and operating exterior hoselines, functioning as command, operations, safety, staging and water supply officers, performing EMS on victims, changing air bottles, performing medical monitering or even being up on the roof performing vertical ventilation .......

    So how many interior firefighters does it take for a one or two room fire v. the number of needed exterior firefighting, support and command tasks?

    Discussion on this is pointless.


    Get real bobby, only you can get by with that kind of logic.

    The logic that states that we need exterior tasks performed as interior tasks are being performed? Is that the same the logic that states that if I can save my interior folks for RIT or rotation interior by using exterior only firefighters for exterior firefighting and exterior tasks I will be able to accomplish more tasks on the fireground at the same time?


    Also, find me a percentage of firefighters who are certified (I know how you feel on meeting standards but just do this mental exercise for me) to operate interior and CAN NOT do whatever your exterior only guys do. I'm not talking pump operators or drivers, I mean actual exterior only 'firefighters' who will do everything but put on SCBA and go inside.
    Actually in LA there is no standard so technically, the process of certifing firefighters occurs on the department level utilizing each department's own standards.

    And the point of this question is ...... ? The discussion here isn't about interior firefighters being able to perform exterior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    No, to be a driver engineer, you have to know how to drive and pump an apparatus. To be a firefighter, you have to fight fire. How is this so confusing? I still fill in as a driver in both my departments. If I'm first in at my volly, I can go from engineer to command to firefighter in the matter of minutes. Just because I'm IC until a higher rank arrives doesn't make me chief. Just because you're a member of a fire department doesn't make you a firefighter. Why is this so difficult?
    Why is what other departments call thier members so friggin' important to you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    When going interior is the minimum standard, this no longer poses itself as an issue.

    We are a very small city department. Split volunteer fire and full time public safety. We cover every bit of 2 1/2 square miles. We run 1-2 working structure fires a year. 20 active firefighters. Population around 2,500.

    Everyone can go interior, and does. Everyone is a first responder. Why? Because these are our minimum standards. We make it very clear to new potential members that if you are not comfortable with these minimum standards we appreciate the interest but we simply do not have a need for you.

    Why? Because in the world of minimum manpower, having people who cannot do anything and everything possible just doesn't make sense. I would rather we have no one respond and a mutual aid department handle a fire than to have us respond with 4 exterior firefighters (if we had such a thing).
    And that is your department's choice.

    To me it would makes no sense for either my combo or volunteer department to exclude or portion of your population that can provide support services to your interior operations, or can be trained to operate as first-line personnel at MVAs performing extrication or working the fire lines at brush fires.

    I guess i see the world of minimum manpower differently. If I have 4 interior members and 4 exterior firefighters responding, I know that I can commit all my interior personnel ... interior, and use my exterior firefighters to support interior operations. That makes sense to me.

    Again, how a department chooses to structure itself and what they determine to title thier personnel is really up to the department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-23-2011 at 10:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess i see the world of minimum manpower differently. If I have 4 interior members and 4 exterior firefighters responding, I know that I can commit all my interior personnel ... interior, and use my exterior firefighters to support interior operations. That makes sense to me.
    Not if you adhere to 2 in 2 out. Your exterior only folks don't qualify if they can't go in to rescue your interior crews.

    So now you only have 2 interior guys at a time at a structure fire. That is completely insufficient and just asking to fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    Not if you adhere to 2 in 2 out. Your exterior only folks don't qualify if they can't go in to rescue your interior crews.

    So now you only have 2 interior guys at a time at a structure fire. That is completely insufficient and just asking to fail.
    The problem here is that you are making the assumption that exterior firefighters are capable of performing interior, but choose not to. Most of the time that is not the case. The reason why they are exterior firefighters is that they for whatever reason - poor conditioning, age, clausterphopia, or just a fear of operating in a fire - and they cannot function in that role, so they are trained to perform exterior firefighting functions.

    While there are some exterior firefighters that may be capable of operating interior, but simply choose not to, that is generally not the case. I personnally of several area (very competent) firefighters who I know that have no issues operating in an SCBA on a roof, at a vehicle fire or even in a confined space, but simply cannot handle operating interior at a structure fire.

    In your example, assuming a single line being intially stretched, without the exterior firefighters you are correct in saying that we would not be complaint with 2 In/2 Out as one interior member would have to function as the pump operator.

    However, using the same single line scenerio, with the exterior firefighters, it is highly likely (at least on both of my departments) that one of the exterior members would also be a certified driver/pump operator. That would free up the interior member who would be on the pump w/out the exterior members to be eligable to be a part of the RI team with the 4th interior firefighter. It would also give the operation 3 other exterior members to possibly perform as the IC, as well as perform ventilation and water supply functions.

    Again, in the rural volunteer departments, exterior firefighters make a whole lot of sense.
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    LA - what other departments call their "firefighters" IS important to me . because it reflects on the overall perception of fire departments. And that affects my department (indirectly)
    And you were asking what you would call guys that have no problem wearing a scott pack outside , but dont want to go inside ------- coward seems to come to mind - maybe poser - enabler - the list goes on and on
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    Not if you adhere to 2 in 2 out.
    2 in 2 out, Whats that?
    Stay Safe
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    Vacant;;,,


    FORT WORTH — Two firefighters were injured Wednesday morning while battling a blaze at a vacant farmhouse near the Haltom City border.
    The first firefighter was injured when he lost his balance on a ladder and caught his leg in between two rungs, breaking it, authorities said.
    About 90 minutes later, another firefighter was injured as he walked through the house putting out hot spots. As he was walking, the floor collapsed and he fell through to the basement, breaking his collarbone.
    Neither firefighter was identified.
    The fire was reported about 5:45 a.m. in the 4200 block of East First Street, near Haltom Road.
    Fifteen units responded to the fire, which took several hours to knock down, according to the Fire Department web portal. The fire continued to smolder late Wednesday morning.


    Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/11...#ixzz1eY65qLF5

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Vacant;;,,


    FORT WORTH — Two firefighters were injured Wednesday morning while battling a blaze at a vacant farmhouse near the Haltom City border.
    The first firefighter was injured when he lost his balance on a ladder and caught his leg in between two rungs, breaking it, authorities said.
    About 90 minutes later, another firefighter was injured as he walked through the house putting out hot spots. As he was walking, the floor collapsed and he fell through to the basement, breaking his collarbone.
    Neither firefighter was identified.
    The fire was reported about 5:45 a.m. in the 4200 block of East First Street, near Haltom Road.
    Fifteen units responded to the fire, which took several hours to knock down, according to the Fire Department web portal. The fire continued to smolder late Wednesday morning.


    Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/11...#ixzz1eY65qLF5
    Other than wishing these guys a speedy recovery, what's your point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    LA - what other departments call their "firefighters" IS important to me . because it reflects on the overall perception of fire departments. And that affects my department (indirectly)
    And you were asking what you would call guys that have no problem wearing a scott pack outside , but dont want to go inside ------- coward seems to come to mind - maybe poser - enabler - the list goes on and on
    No, it really doesn't affect your department.

    So a guy/gal who is willing to train on and perform all the functions of a firefighter except operate interior because maybe he/she recognizes the fact that he may not be in the best shape, may have a problem psycholgically dealing with the situation or may not be able to cope with the thought that he may be killed leaving his family behind and not be able to focus on the job, is a coward ?

    Because he doesn't wish to go inside, he's a poser?

    To me, that's a member that has recognized he may be aliability interior because he has admitted to something that will affect his performance. To me, that's a team player concerned about his other firefighters.

    I guess we have a different perspective.

    I fully realize that not everybiody will have the ability to perform interior. because of that, I am perfectly happy accepting volunteers for what they can do, not what we think a firefighter should be able to do.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-23-2011 at 02:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Other than wishing these guys a speedy recovery, what's your point?
    Maybe that this incident injured 2 firefighters working interior in a vacant house.

    And exactly what did thiose injuries and the interior operation accomplish?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So a guy/gal who is willing to train on and perform all the functions of a firefighter except operate interior because maybe he/she recognizes the fact that he may not be in the best shape, may haved a problem psycholigically dealing with the situation to or possibly leaving his family behind, is a coward ?

    Because he doesn't wish to go inside, he's a poser?
    These questions practically answer themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To me, that's a member that has recognized he may be aliability interior because he has admitted to something that will affect his performance. To me, that's a team player concerned about his other firefighters.
    When a person believes they are not capable of performing the tasks required and are a liability, they should quit.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess we have a different perspective.
    Yes. Ours is one that a firefighter entails a minimum amount of expectation. Yours is one that anyone should be able to call themselves something they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully realize that not everybiody will have the ability to perform interior. because of that, I am perfectly happy accepting volunteers for what they can do, not what we think a firefighter should be able to do.
    Do your citizens know they have pathetic losers posing as firefighters? Just asking?
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    Would I be crazy to expect that there be someone on the outside to be able to come
    in and get my @$$ out if something like this were to happen to me? The guys on the outside calling themselves firefighters ought to be able to come in and rescue the guys on the inside when something like this happens, right? I mean, that's just science. And I don't know anything (yet).
    I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we who know the work which the fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling. —Chief Edward F. Croker


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe that this incident injured 2 firefighters working interior in a vacant house.

    And exactly what did thiose injuries and the interior operation accomplish?
    Valuable experience.

    Sounds like one of them could use a little more ladder training, and the other needed to sound the floor a little better, maybe even a basement check.

    Thankfully they're OK. On the next fire they won't make the same mistakes.

    If they would have stood outside and sprayed water they would have learned nothing.

    You can't mitigate the risk to zero in this job. If that is what you're looking for...go sell copiers for a living.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reese Jacob View Post
    Would I be crazy to expect that there be someone on the outside to be able to come
    in and get my @$$ out if something like this were to happen to me? The guys on the outside calling themselves firefighters ought to be able to come in and rescue the guys on the inside when something like this happens, right? I mean, that's just science. And I don't know anything (yet).
    Again, the firefighters who either we have deemed exterior or have chosen to operate as such, are not expected to go inside. If we need personnel for a rapid intervention team, we call mutual aid, and our mutual aid departments do the same when they need one.

    This isn't about telling volunteers who are capable and qualified to be interior firefighters that they can't be. This isn't about reducing or limiting the number of interior firefighters on the department.

    This is about allowing community members that may not have the capabilities to operate interior to operate on the fireground performing exterior firefighting tasks, which frees up interior members to operate inyerior, and as you discussed in your post, be avaialble to operate as rapid intervention personnel.

    As stated before, many of these folks are also quite proficient at EMS, vehicle extraction, pump operations and technical rescue which are all fire department functions.
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    When a person believes they are not capable of performing the tasks required and are a liability, they should quit.

    So when a volunteer can no longer go interior due to age, or possibly an injury, or maybe a job change that limits thier training time and they can no longer keep up the skills needed to be interior, they are now of no value to the department in an exterior role and should just quit? Really? I guess you don't value the experience and skills that5, 10 or 15-year member can still bring to the table in an exterior role, but as I have said before the system works very well in this, as well as many other areas, so your opinion really has no value. Sorry.

    Yes. Ours is one that a firefighter entails a minimum amount of expectation. Yours is one that anyone should be able to call themselves something they are not.

    That's as you define a firefighter. Since our expectations vary based on the person's age and physical abilities, so does our defination. Again, it works very well for department's that use exterior firefighers. Really doesn't matter if you buy into it or not.

    Do your citizens know they have pathetic losers posing as firefighters? Just asking?[/QUOTE]

    The community served by my VFD, as well as every other community in that parish, are very well aware that not all members are interior personnel and that the departments interior abilities are limited by manpower and funding. That is not and likely never has been a secret.

    They are very aware that to get the type of services you seem to demand of every fire department would require a level of taxiation that simply would be unbearable.

    My combo department does not have this issue as a rule due to a limited fulltime staff, a greater number of interior members and a much larger training budget.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-23-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerhourcoug View Post
    Valuable experience.

    Sounds like one of them could use a little more ladder training, and the other needed to sound the floor a little better, maybe even a basement check.

    Thankfully they're OK. On the next fire they won't make the same mistakes.

    If they would have stood outside and sprayed water they would have learned nothing.

    You can't mitigate the risk to zero in this job. If that is what you're looking for...go sell copiers for a living.
    Not going to deny that going interior at fires like this does provide valuable experience. No arguement there.

    However anytime you make an interior attack there is risk, and the question needs to be asked is the risk worth the experience gained.

    My answer would be overall, no, but that could change depending on the fire conditions on the condition of the structure.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-23-2011 at 02:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    ...If the public knew where a majority of that money went instead of the fire department, they'd express their disgust. ...
    So you are saying that in Camden NJ, where about 1/2 of the FD was let go...it was because the people living there just "don't know"? And in the multiples posts on this site where guys are talking about their staffing being cut from 5 to 4 to 3...it's just because the people just "don't know"?

    Then I guess those departments better get out there and educate their public cuz that will solve all their staffing problems.

    Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So when a volunteer can no longer go interior due to age, or possibly an injury, or maybe a job change that no longer allows them to keep up the skills needed to be interior, they are of no value to the department in an exterior role and should just quit?
    This question answers itself. In case you don't recognize it, the answer is an unequivocal "YES!"

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really? I guess you don't value the experience and skills that member can still bring to the table in an exterior role, but as I have sad before the system works very well in this, as well as many other areas, so your opinion really has no value. Sorry.
    No, I don't. If they want to teach said skills on a volunteer basis or at a local JC, so be it. They have no business being on an apparatus responding to emergencies. In this case my opinion is just as valid as yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's as you define a firefighter. Since our expectations vary based on the person's age and physical abilities, so does our feination. Again, it works very well for department's that use exterior firefighers. Really doesn't matter if you buy into it or not.
    It's how I define a firefighter and those of us who took the profession seriously and not casually like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The community served by my VFD, as well as every other community in that parish, are very well aware that not all members are interior personnel and that the departments are limited by manpower and funding. That is not and likely never has been a secret.
    That's great. I'll ask again. A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Do your citizens know they are getting fire protection from a bunch of pathetic losers? It's understandable if the entire city is made up of these types of individuals. Don't be ashamed or embarrassed you live in a locale that has such low expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They are very aware that to get the type of services you seem to demand would require a level of taxiation that simply would be unbearable.
    Great. They should be making it known there is no protection in that locale so that folks can avoid it. Until then they are committing fraud.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My combo department does not have this issue as a rule due to a limited fulltime staff, a greater number of interior members and a much larger training budget.
    So what?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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