1. #676
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    LaFire,

    I would venture to say that in your department you probably have not had many downed or trapped firefighters during the course of your operations.

    By your logic, do you not train your members in the packaging and removal of a downed firefighter? Do you not train them in MAYDAY procedures and self-survival techniques?

    An honest question.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, your district has your priorities and mine has it's.

    Forcible entry is not something that we spend very much time teaching new members. We have experienced people on scene, that on those very rare occasions we need to force a door, can do it quickly and easily. As I stated earlier it's something we run in to very infrequently and has not been deemed an essential skill for new members in my combo department.

    It's one of the skills that we have decided is best taught during the weekly training process and through practical exercise on those occasions that we have a building to use for hands-on.

    I could sit at my desk and go through the book, but as I stated earlier as well the only forcible entry tools we carry on my combo department are halligans and axes. We also carry Fubars as of earlier this year, and we are still in the process of experimenting with them. We do carry K-12s and chainsaws but they are in the ventilation portion of the program.

    My VFD actually carries a few more tools than my combo department - Kelly bar and a TNT tool - as well as halligans.

    My previous VFD in the northeast carried a much wider assortment of tools, and yes, we did spend longer on that, but we also performed forcible entry much more often into commercial and more highly secured structures.
    You are still evading answering the questions!

  3. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    LaFire,

    I would venture to say that in your department you probably have not had many downed or trapped firefighters during the course of your operations.

    By your logic, do you not train your members in the packaging and removal of a downed firefighter? Do you not train them in MAYDAY procedures and self-survival techniques?

    An honest question.
    And I'll ne honest in return.

    Yes, we do train on rapid intervention.

    Do we train IMO enough? No. But once again the simple reality is that time is the issue. My combo department has about 48 drill nights a year, when you take way holidays. of that, we nned to commit at least 6 to CPR/EMS. We need to commit 2 to driving. That leaves 40 nights to cover everything else we do, including rapid intervention, self-rescue and mayday recognition.

    We recognize the fact that even though we have not had a firefighter down situation it still requires training, and we do spend time on it.

    That being said, I don't think equating forcible entry and rapid intervention os an equal comparison. While forcible entry is important, there are few situations in our district where not being able to force a door 15 or 20 seconds sooner will create a life safety threat. Residences in this area tend not to be heavily secured andd FE into this structures are almost always a very quick and easy job with no time delay. While I will admit that commercial FE can be amuch more complicated tasks, in our area there simply will not be a life safety issue if a commercial structure is locked and secured, so the time required to FE will not create the same life hazard as members not being trained in rapid intervention.

    As I have previously stated, there are plenty of experienced personnel on scene to be assigned to FE operations. It simply is not done here very often at all, and we have determined that there are much more critical and frequent skills including rural water ops, brush fire ops, extrication ops, industrial firefighting and yes, EMS certification for new members that are far more critical to our operations that anything beyond very basic FE for new members.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You are still evading answering the questions!
    Looking at my FFI text ....

    Rebar cuutters ........................... no.
    Burning bars .............................. no
    Torches .................................... yes, but not a basic tool for rookies.
    Plasma cutters ........................... no
    Cutting flares ............................. no
    Circular saws ............................ no
    Rotary saws ............................... yes, covered as vent tool
    Chainsaws .................................. yes, once again, vent tool
    Recip saw .................................. yes, covered as avehicle extrication tool
    Rambar ..................................... no
    Nhydralic Door Opener .................. no
    Pike pole .................................... yes
    Clemens Hook ............................. no
    Roofman's Hook .......................... no
    Dyrwall Hook .............................. yes, but covered in overhaul
    Plaster Hook ............................... yes, overhaul tool
    Rubbish Hook .............................. yes, again, covered in overhaul
    Sledge ....................................... yes
    Battering Ram .............................. no
    Pick ........................................... no
    Mallett ....................................... no
    Chisel ......................................... no
    K-Tool ........................................ no
    A-Tool ........................................ no
    J-Tool ......................................... no
    Duck-billed lock breaker ..................no
    Hammer head Pick ......................... no
    Bam-bam tool ............................... no

    As you can see, my combo department carries very little of the tools discussed in the chapter, any many of those we do carry we tend to discuss in other areas of the operations.

    As far as skills, probably 50% othe chapter is highly applicable to my combo area and are things that we could run into. Another 25% exist in very limited numbers and situations.

    So could a rookie run into 75% of the areas mentioned in the chapter in my combo area? Yes. Are they going to be needed to be the primary toolman in these situations? No. We have plenty of experienced members with both FFI and FFII as well as several members who as I stated, do this every shift in an urban department to be the lead firefighter on FE operations.

    It's simply our department philosphy that FE is not a critical area given that we are have designed this program to teach the most frequently used skills and tools over a short-time frame to get the members operating and performing basic skills in basic, common fireground operations. It is not designed to teach all or even most of the skilkls they will use operating in our district. Skills like FE are not critical given our staffing situation and have been "assigned" if you will, to nightly training or specialized outside FE training when available. Call that frame of mind right or wrong, but it has worked very well for this department over the years.

    My VFD has a very limited number of the complex FE situations discussed. Again, it's scheduled to be talked about for an hour in our new rookie calss, and that will be plenty of time to cover the very limited number of FE specific tools we carry and some operational basics.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-08-2011 at 03:32 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I'm sending you naked pictures of me while you wait
    WTF? You'll send HIM pics and not me?

    You tease.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    WTF? You'll send HIM pics and not me?

    You tease.
    Don't you just hate it when that happens?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have plenty of experienced members with both FFI and FFII as well as several members who as I stated, do this every shift in an urban department to be the lead firefighter on FE operations.
    I thought the reason you had to have members not trained to the FFI level was because there were so few volunteers that you couldnt afford to see any go even if they didnt have time/want to/were scared to train to that level?

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencer534 View Post
    I thought the reason you had to have members not trained to the FFI level was because there were so few volunteers that you couldnt afford to see any go even if they didnt have time/want to/were scared to train to that level?
    Derpends on which department to you are referring.

    My combo department, were I work FT, which was the topic of the conversation regarding FE, has close to 45 interior firefighters, about 15 non-interior members plus 10 junior and 9 support members.

    The reason that we don't require FFI is that our rookie training program mirrors FFI in the areas that correspond to our operations. FFI is actually not as applicable to what we do when compared to our in-house training.

    And by the way, about 50% of those volunteer interior members do have FFI, either through us or through thier career FD, and many have FFII as well as other advanced certs including HM Tech, Instructor and Fire Officer.

    It is my my VFD does not require FFI due to the time demands it would place on current non-FFI members, as well as prospective members. By the way, half of the 14 members of that department also do have FFI, and most of those have FFII as well, in most cases through thier FT department. Again, Driver/Operator, HM Tech, Instructor I & II and Fire Officer are some of the advanced certs they hold.

    I don't know of any that are scared to train to that level, but I certainly would have no issues with that or think no less of them if that was the case. For most, it's simply a mateer of time, which I also respect.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-08-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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