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  1. #21
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    No person shall provide firefighting, fire safety inspector, fire instruction, or other related services without possessing the appropriate certificate

    Bud, I don't think you can make it any more plain English than that.


  2. #22
    Forum Member ChathamVFD9921's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    No person shall provide firefighting, fire safety inspector, fire instruction, or other related services without possessing the appropriate certificate

    Bud, I don't think you can make it any more plain English than that.
    I can see that.

    But it doesnt answer my question of whether your ONLY allowed to have EMS cards, and still be a member of a fire entity (which got answered in another thread, thank you).

  3. #23
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    So I guess "new school" you fish for a bunch of information on the internet from total strangers so you can try and undermine your chief? Glad I am old school. Nothing wrong with trying to improve things --- but there is a right way and a wrong way.
    ?

  4. #24
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    I have been on a a 100% volunteer fire dept for 26yrs now.Im on the second round of the old school new school scenario. Ive been an officer of some type for 20 of the 26yrs.Currently Im working my way back up as assistant chief again.Every year during elections I try to encourage the younger guys to start taking more responsibility and run for office. I would be more than happy to be a senior FF giving advise and slowing down. At this point no one is stepping up even though of the 28 firefighters more than 1/2 are less than 40yrs old some as young as 21 few are stepping up yet. It takes a lot of dedication including time and patients to be an officer on a 100% volunteer dept. The only certificates I have is first responder and auto extraction. Other than that its just 26yrs experience plus attending training schools at the regional and state levels for many years. No firefighting certificates are needed here in ND. The transition to the way young on the old way may be slow and painful.The key would be to have a few of you new school guys volunteer to take on training aspects and other duties if you can. Be really involved.Then if you have the training an experience why not run for an assistant position.Don't push the old school out of the way but offer to take on their duties while your changing to the "new way". Then practice your new way.For example use the radios the "new way" but be patient and tolerant when the old school uses the old way. Offer to do radio training a couple time a year if time permits. The Firehouse and its membership can be very political so speaking softly and putting extra effort in to it may get you far. Don't spout off at a meeting then never volunteer for extra duty even if it just cleaning the hall. If you just spout off at a meeting your a whiner on our department and mostly ignored.On our department being 100% volunteer the extra time you put in pays you nothing,but seems to eventually get you an officers position.
    Dave
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    a positive attitude may not solve all your problems,but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

  5. #25
    Forum Member ChathamVFD9921's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    So I guess "new school" you fish for a bunch of information on the internet from total strangers so you can try and undermine your chief? Glad I am old school. Nothing wrong with trying to improve things --- but there is a right way and a wrong way.
    No this is called trolling.

    Nobody is being undermined, the internet is a KNOWLEDGE portal, and i am using it as so. If you dont like it, dont contribute.

  6. #26
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    So I guess "new school" you fish for a bunch of information on the internet from total strangers so you can try and undermine your chief? Glad I am old school. Nothing wrong with trying to improve things --- but there is a right way and a wrong way.
    What's your beef with Chatham? He seems to be genuinely interested in improving things in his department - things that we wouldn't probably condone in our own department (cut offs and wife beaters, etc).

    At no time has he shown me that he wants to undermine any of his officers. Rather, he seems to want to find out how the rest of us are running our own departments.
    Career Fire Captain
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  7. #27
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    Box alarm , no beef personally with chatam - I have a problem with his approach. There was no need to twice tell the tale of flipflops. I believe asking for sample SOGs on a dress code would have been a better route. To talk about "farmers and mechanics" didnt seem like the best route either.
    And the question about "fire cards" was again (in my opinion) asked in a way that cast a negative light on his department.
    The original question was "old school vs new school" - well if airing your dirty laundry is new school - then I am glad I am old school.
    Chatham - there are a lot of simple answers out there - how bout you try and get a walmat grant and buy some nice zippered leg jump suits for your EMS runs ? Work WITH your chief and write some basic SOGs ? Small steps will eventually make big progress. Dont try and create a split by using terms like old/new school. social club etc.
    ?

  8. #28
    Forum Member ChathamVFD9921's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Box alarm , no beef personally with chatam - I have a problem with his approach. There was no need to twice tell the tale of flipflops. I believe asking for sample SOGs on a dress code would have been a better route. To talk about "farmers and mechanics" didnt seem like the best route either.
    And the question about "fire cards" was again (in my opinion) asked in a way that cast a negative light on his department.
    The original question was "old school vs new school" - well if airing your dirty laundry is new school - then I am glad I am old school.
    Chatham - there are a lot of simple answers out there - how bout you try and get a walmat grant and buy some nice zippered leg jump suits for your EMS runs ? Work WITH your chief and write some basic SOGs ? Small steps will eventually make big progress. Dont try and create a split by using terms like old/new school. social club etc.
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Volunteer does not equal amateur. While you may not have the nicest, newest equipment, it costs very little to have some standards. It shouldn't be a burden for members to at least have a pair of work boots, jeans, and a dept tee shirt or work shirt in a little gym bag in their car or the station. Training is a must, but that too doesn't have to be expensive. I'm on a paid on call dept, and a large metro dept. as well. I'd put my VFD guys up against a lot of small paid depts. Now we have good funding, but we train 2-3 times a month, and we have long term goals to be NFPA compliant as much as we can and to improve our ISO rating. Your LEADERSHIP is responsible for accomplishing this. It takes hard work and dedication, and motivation. I'm glad to see motivated young guys like you. You are the future of this dept. Talk with the other guys on the dept. and see if any feel the same. Then work together to better yourselves. Get to know guys on surrounding depts. and learn from them as well.

  10. #30
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    ...One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Geez, you just impress me more with every post.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #31
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    I've got to take exception to that. We've got five guys at our station in uniform tonight. After cleaning the station and doing rig checks, they hosted a ropes & rigging session for the neighboring station. Then they'll police the station for tidiness again before bed, and then be up by 0800, as per our rules.

    You don't have to be paid to act professionally.
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  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Speak for yourself.

    Many on here are with departments that are just as professional as their paid counterparts. Just because YOU and YOUR department are not that way, don't think that others are not.

    Try leading by example instead of tearing down the department. Even the youngest rookie can lead.

  13. #33
    Forum Member ChathamVFD9921's Avatar
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    Maybe i should have clarified a little more,

    I wasnt saying the full time guys were better then the volunteer guys,

    I meant, that on a volunteer department, you cant "make" anyone wear uniforms, go to "more" school, or change there lifestyle just because you want to look and act more professional. Only the Chief has that power, and he has ALOT to take into consideration before he starts making alot of new "requirements". The members of a volunteer department have totally separate careers, motives, goals and amounts of time available. Most of it look at a way to give back, and show up "when they can" to help, which is not a bad thing.

    There is a large group of younger people on my department, and even though ive only been on for a little over 3 years, i have seniority on 14 people. That puts me at roughly #8 on the list of non-officers int he seniority category, couple that with my full time EMS job, and the fact that ive been in the top 5 for calls made the last 3 years, and it gives me a pretty good view on how my department functions, how others around us function, and the direction i would like to see it go.

    I would say that since i have joined, about 1/3 of us now wear uniforms (bought ourselves) and train regularly (every Wednesday night).

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Maybe i should have clarified a little more,

    I wasnt saying the full time guys were better then the volunteer guys,

    I meant, that on a volunteer department, you cant "make" anyone wear uniforms, go to "more" school, or change there lifestyle just because you want to look and act more professional. Only the Chief has that power, and he has ALOT to take into consideration before he starts making alot of new "requirements". The members of a volunteer department have totally separate careers, motives, goals and amounts of time available. Most of it look at a way to give back, and show up "when they can" to help, which is not a bad thing.

    There is a large group of younger people on my department, and even though ive only been on for a little over 3 years, i have seniority on 14 people. That puts me at roughly #8 on the list of non-officers int he seniority category, couple that with my full time EMS job, and the fact that ive been in the top 5 for calls made the last 3 years, and it gives me a pretty good view on how my department functions, how others around us function, and the direction i would like to see it go.

    I would say that since i have joined, about 1/3 of us now wear uniforms (bought ourselves) and train regularly (every Wednesday night).
    Okay, so that makes you the In-Charge Rookie! Now that you're in a position of leadership, mentor the new guys and help them out with any questions they have. Form a commitee to come up with tee shirts or hats that have your logo or patch on them, that way you can develop some pride in your dept. members. Encourage other new members to get online on this site or any others that can provide learning oportunites. Have the dept subscribe to Firehouse or Fire Engineering and have it delivered to the firehouse so guys can read it and learn. Most of all, keep motivated and it will spread.

  15. #35
    Forum Member ChathamVFD9921's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Okay, so that makes you the In-Charge Rookie! Now that you're in a position of leadership, mentor the new guys and help them out with any questions they have. Form a commitee to come up with tee shirts or hats that have your logo or patch on them, that way you can develop some pride in your dept. members. Encourage other new members to get online on this site or any others that can provide learning oportunites. Have the dept subscribe to Firehouse or Fire Engineering and have it delivered to the firehouse so guys can read it and learn. Most of all, keep motivated and it will spread.
    Weird...everything you said has already been done

    Touche' my friend

  16. #36
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Well................

    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    You're right. As you can see, I have a bit of Senority, BUT, I've gotten an attitude and "Let 'er Rip" on here a couple of times. It never turns out good. I don't have a problem with talking things out though, it usually helps a lot.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Actually, you can. The difference between a "My way or the Highway" directive from the person who signs your Paycheck, or the slow, gentle, but firm push by a Volunteer will both get the same result. As it has been pointed out already, Volunteers ARE Professionals. Sometimes. And there have been some very unprofessional full time people around as well. I guess the best thing to do at this point is to continue working quietly and slowly toward your Goals. You have some others on board with you, and that is always a good sign. Good Luck, Keep us posted...........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    There is a large group of younger people on my department, and even though ive only been on for a little over 3 years, i have seniority on 14 people. That puts me at roughly #8 on the list of non-officers int he seniority category, couple that with my full time EMS job, and the fact that ive been in the top 5 for calls made the last 3 years, and it gives me a pretty good view on how my department functions, how others around us function, and the direction i would like to see it go.
    I recommend you check out Leaders need Followers and apply it your situation. You don't have to be a Chief or officer to have a positive impact on the direction of your department.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
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  18. #38
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Yep............

    Voyager is right on the Money...... And, If you can find a copy of "Pride and Ownership" by Chief Rick Laskey, add that to your library. Rick has a very positive approach to situations like the one you mentioned, and his book reflects that. Good Luck, give us an update from time to time........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
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    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  19. #39
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Maybe i should have clarified a little more,

    I wasnt saying the full time guys were better then the volunteer guys,

    I meant, that on a volunteer department, you cant "make" anyone wear uniforms, go to "more" school, or change there lifestyle just because you want to look and act more professional.

    I make very few demands - my people tend to desire to wear the uniforms as a matter of pride and go to more school to learn how to be a better firefighter.

    It takes a few of the younger set to get it started, but it can blossom very quickly. We did get a SAFER grant for Tshirts and coats, those helped. We are well thought of in our area, and it shows with the attitudes of the firefighters.

    Concentrate on what you can do now, as a leader, than the windmill tilting of trying to change the Chiefs way of thinking. Pretty soon it will turn into a lead, follow, or get out of the way situation for him.

  20. #40
    Forum Member ChathamVFD9921's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I make very few demands - my people tend to desire to wear the uniforms as a matter of pride and go to more school to learn how to be a better firefighter.

    It takes a few of the younger set to get it started, but it can blossom very quickly. We did get a SAFER grant for Tshirts and coats, those helped. We are well thought of in our area, and it shows with the attitudes of the firefighters.

    Concentrate on what you can do now, as a leader, than the windmill tilting of trying to change the Chiefs way of thinking. Pretty soon it will turn into a lead, follow, or get out of the way situation for him.
    My department is the opposite, the young guys desire to wear them, the older want nothing to do with them. It is slowly getting better, were getting new official department shirts made now, ill post a picture of them when there done.

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