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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    So I guess "new school" you fish for a bunch of information on the internet from total strangers so you can try and undermine your chief? Glad I am old school. Nothing wrong with trying to improve things --- but there is a right way and a wrong way.
    What's your beef with Chatham? He seems to be genuinely interested in improving things in his department - things that we wouldn't probably condone in our own department (cut offs and wife beaters, etc).

    At no time has he shown me that he wants to undermine any of his officers. Rather, he seems to want to find out how the rest of us are running our own departments.
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    Box alarm , no beef personally with chatam - I have a problem with his approach. There was no need to twice tell the tale of flipflops. I believe asking for sample SOGs on a dress code would have been a better route. To talk about "farmers and mechanics" didnt seem like the best route either.
    And the question about "fire cards" was again (in my opinion) asked in a way that cast a negative light on his department.
    The original question was "old school vs new school" - well if airing your dirty laundry is new school - then I am glad I am old school.
    Chatham - there are a lot of simple answers out there - how bout you try and get a walmat grant and buy some nice zippered leg jump suits for your EMS runs ? Work WITH your chief and write some basic SOGs ? Small steps will eventually make big progress. Dont try and create a split by using terms like old/new school. social club etc.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Box alarm , no beef personally with chatam - I have a problem with his approach. There was no need to twice tell the tale of flipflops. I believe asking for sample SOGs on a dress code would have been a better route. To talk about "farmers and mechanics" didnt seem like the best route either.
    And the question about "fire cards" was again (in my opinion) asked in a way that cast a negative light on his department.
    The original question was "old school vs new school" - well if airing your dirty laundry is new school - then I am glad I am old school.
    Chatham - there are a lot of simple answers out there - how bout you try and get a walmat grant and buy some nice zippered leg jump suits for your EMS runs ? Work WITH your chief and write some basic SOGs ? Small steps will eventually make big progress. Dont try and create a split by using terms like old/new school. social club etc.
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Volunteer does not equal amateur. While you may not have the nicest, newest equipment, it costs very little to have some standards. It shouldn't be a burden for members to at least have a pair of work boots, jeans, and a dept tee shirt or work shirt in a little gym bag in their car or the station. Training is a must, but that too doesn't have to be expensive. I'm on a paid on call dept, and a large metro dept. as well. I'd put my VFD guys up against a lot of small paid depts. Now we have good funding, but we train 2-3 times a month, and we have long term goals to be NFPA compliant as much as we can and to improve our ISO rating. Your LEADERSHIP is responsible for accomplishing this. It takes hard work and dedication, and motivation. I'm glad to see motivated young guys like you. You are the future of this dept. Talk with the other guys on the dept. and see if any feel the same. Then work together to better yourselves. Get to know guys on surrounding depts. and learn from them as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    ...One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Geez, you just impress me more with every post.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    I've got to take exception to that. We've got five guys at our station in uniform tonight. After cleaning the station and doing rig checks, they hosted a ropes & rigging session for the neighboring station. Then they'll police the station for tidiness again before bed, and then be up by 0800, as per our rules.

    You don't have to be paid to act professionally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Speak for yourself.

    Many on here are with departments that are just as professional as their paid counterparts. Just because YOU and YOUR department are not that way, don't think that others are not.

    Try leading by example instead of tearing down the department. Even the youngest rookie can lead.

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    Maybe i should have clarified a little more,

    I wasnt saying the full time guys were better then the volunteer guys,

    I meant, that on a volunteer department, you cant "make" anyone wear uniforms, go to "more" school, or change there lifestyle just because you want to look and act more professional. Only the Chief has that power, and he has ALOT to take into consideration before he starts making alot of new "requirements". The members of a volunteer department have totally separate careers, motives, goals and amounts of time available. Most of it look at a way to give back, and show up "when they can" to help, which is not a bad thing.

    There is a large group of younger people on my department, and even though ive only been on for a little over 3 years, i have seniority on 14 people. That puts me at roughly #8 on the list of non-officers int he seniority category, couple that with my full time EMS job, and the fact that ive been in the top 5 for calls made the last 3 years, and it gives me a pretty good view on how my department functions, how others around us function, and the direction i would like to see it go.

    I would say that since i have joined, about 1/3 of us now wear uniforms (bought ourselves) and train regularly (every Wednesday night).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Maybe i should have clarified a little more,

    I wasnt saying the full time guys were better then the volunteer guys,

    I meant, that on a volunteer department, you cant "make" anyone wear uniforms, go to "more" school, or change there lifestyle just because you want to look and act more professional. Only the Chief has that power, and he has ALOT to take into consideration before he starts making alot of new "requirements". The members of a volunteer department have totally separate careers, motives, goals and amounts of time available. Most of it look at a way to give back, and show up "when they can" to help, which is not a bad thing.

    There is a large group of younger people on my department, and even though ive only been on for a little over 3 years, i have seniority on 14 people. That puts me at roughly #8 on the list of non-officers int he seniority category, couple that with my full time EMS job, and the fact that ive been in the top 5 for calls made the last 3 years, and it gives me a pretty good view on how my department functions, how others around us function, and the direction i would like to see it go.

    I would say that since i have joined, about 1/3 of us now wear uniforms (bought ourselves) and train regularly (every Wednesday night).
    Okay, so that makes you the In-Charge Rookie! Now that you're in a position of leadership, mentor the new guys and help them out with any questions they have. Form a commitee to come up with tee shirts or hats that have your logo or patch on them, that way you can develop some pride in your dept. members. Encourage other new members to get online on this site or any others that can provide learning oportunites. Have the dept subscribe to Firehouse or Fire Engineering and have it delivered to the firehouse so guys can read it and learn. Most of all, keep motivated and it will spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Okay, so that makes you the In-Charge Rookie! Now that you're in a position of leadership, mentor the new guys and help them out with any questions they have. Form a commitee to come up with tee shirts or hats that have your logo or patch on them, that way you can develop some pride in your dept. members. Encourage other new members to get online on this site or any others that can provide learning oportunites. Have the dept subscribe to Firehouse or Fire Engineering and have it delivered to the firehouse so guys can read it and learn. Most of all, keep motivated and it will spread.
    Weird...everything you said has already been done

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Honestly, your right and i should have presented it to the boards a little differently. I should avoid posting when im in the ranting mood.

    You're right. As you can see, I have a bit of Senority, BUT, I've gotten an attitude and "Let 'er Rip" on here a couple of times. It never turns out good. I don't have a problem with talking things out though, it usually helps a lot.

    One of the things i need to realize is that im still on a Volunteer department, so i cant expect the same as full time guys.
    Actually, you can. The difference between a "My way or the Highway" directive from the person who signs your Paycheck, or the slow, gentle, but firm push by a Volunteer will both get the same result. As it has been pointed out already, Volunteers ARE Professionals. Sometimes. And there have been some very unprofessional full time people around as well. I guess the best thing to do at this point is to continue working quietly and slowly toward your Goals. You have some others on board with you, and that is always a good sign. Good Luck, Keep us posted...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    There is a large group of younger people on my department, and even though ive only been on for a little over 3 years, i have seniority on 14 people. That puts me at roughly #8 on the list of non-officers int he seniority category, couple that with my full time EMS job, and the fact that ive been in the top 5 for calls made the last 3 years, and it gives me a pretty good view on how my department functions, how others around us function, and the direction i would like to see it go.
    I recommend you check out Leaders need Followers and apply it your situation. You don't have to be a Chief or officer to have a positive impact on the direction of your department.
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    Voyager is right on the Money...... And, If you can find a copy of "Pride and Ownership" by Chief Rick Laskey, add that to your library. Rick has a very positive approach to situations like the one you mentioned, and his book reflects that. Good Luck, give us an update from time to time........
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Maybe i should have clarified a little more,

    I wasnt saying the full time guys were better then the volunteer guys,

    I meant, that on a volunteer department, you cant "make" anyone wear uniforms, go to "more" school, or change there lifestyle just because you want to look and act more professional.

    I make very few demands - my people tend to desire to wear the uniforms as a matter of pride and go to more school to learn how to be a better firefighter.

    It takes a few of the younger set to get it started, but it can blossom very quickly. We did get a SAFER grant for Tshirts and coats, those helped. We are well thought of in our area, and it shows with the attitudes of the firefighters.

    Concentrate on what you can do now, as a leader, than the windmill tilting of trying to change the Chiefs way of thinking. Pretty soon it will turn into a lead, follow, or get out of the way situation for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I make very few demands - my people tend to desire to wear the uniforms as a matter of pride and go to more school to learn how to be a better firefighter.

    It takes a few of the younger set to get it started, but it can blossom very quickly. We did get a SAFER grant for Tshirts and coats, those helped. We are well thought of in our area, and it shows with the attitudes of the firefighters.

    Concentrate on what you can do now, as a leader, than the windmill tilting of trying to change the Chiefs way of thinking. Pretty soon it will turn into a lead, follow, or get out of the way situation for him.
    My department is the opposite, the young guys desire to wear them, the older want nothing to do with them. It is slowly getting better, were getting new official department shirts made now, ill post a picture of them when there done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Voyager is right on the Money...... And, If you can find a copy of "Pride and Ownership" by Chief Rick Laskey, add that to your library. Rick has a very positive approach to situations like the one you mentioned, and his book reflects that. Good Luck, give us an update from time to time........
    Ill keep this thread going with updates,

    And about the books, i have been recommended them before, guess its time to check out Amazon.com

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    Just some quick notes,

    I did get 3 committees started in the last month or so. We have a uniform committee thats going to set up a uniform program for the department, a by-laws committee that is going to straighten out the by-laws situation, and recently a workout equipment committee thats going to be in charge of getting workout equipment for the station.

    Things are moving in a positive way, and there has been a big difference when it comes to hospital times. We used to spend almost an hour at the hospital after dropping a patient off, now that time is down to 10 minutes. It took 3 years to change "the way its always been done", but its a change for the better.

    Also, we recently purchased a 3000 gallon E-one pumper tanker to replace two 1970's homemade tankers that are currently in our fleet. It will be the first new fire apparatus we have purchased since 2004.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Just some quick notes,

    I did get 3 committees started in the last month or so. We have a uniform committee thats going to set up a uniform program for the department, a by-laws committee that is going to straighten out the by-laws situation, and recently a workout equipment committee thats going to be in charge of getting workout equipment for the station.

    Things are moving in a positive way, and there has been a big difference when it comes to hospital times. We used to spend almost an hour at the hospital after dropping a patient off, now that time is down to 10 minutes. It took 3 years to change "the way its always been done", but its a change for the better.

    Also, we recently purchased a 3000 gallon E-one pumper tanker to replace two 1970's homemade tankers that are currently in our fleet. It will be the first new fire apparatus we have purchased since 2004.

    Good for you!

    And Exercise equipment can be obtained through donations usually very easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Just some quick notes,

    I did get 3 committees started in the last month or so. We have a uniform committee thats going to set up a uniform program for the department, a by-laws committee that is going to straighten out the by-laws situation, and recently a workout equipment committee thats going to be in charge of getting workout equipment for the station.

    Things are moving in a positive way, and there has been a big difference when it comes to hospital times. We used to spend almost an hour at the hospital after dropping a patient off, now that time is down to 10 minutes. It took 3 years to change "the way its always been done", but its a change for the better.

    Also, we recently purchased a 3000 gallon E-one pumper tanker to replace two 1970's homemade tankers that are currently in our fleet. It will be the first new fire apparatus we have purchased since 2004.
    Nice, we just ordered a Pierce engine tanker with a 2500 gal tank. We've got some nice equipment now and are doing some really good training to go along with it.

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    This is a pretty good thread. This is currently happeneing on my volunteer department now as well. There is a group of 3-4 younger members that are basically spearhaeding change through the dept. None of the members have been there less than 5 years and all of them have showed time and time again they they are there for the right reasons. Over time, the "new school" guys have gained the trust of the rest of the dept, the officer's, and the "old school" guys. They have been there long enough and have enough experience that they realize that things are done the way they are done because it works. They don't want to completely do away with "the way it's always been." They are just making improvments. Things that have been changed were not just changed over night. They were tried and shown to be an improvment over what was being done. Time and trust are key on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy171 View Post
    This is a pretty good thread. This is currently happeneing on my volunteer department now as well. There is a group of 3-4 younger members that are basically spearhaeding change through the dept. None of the members have been there less than 5 years and all of them have showed time and time again they they are there for the right reasons. Over time, the "new school" guys have gained the trust of the rest of the dept, the officer's, and the "old school" guys. They have been there long enough and have enough experience that they realize that things are done the way they are done because it works. They don't want to completely do away with "the way it's always been." They are just making improvments. Things that have been changed were not just changed over night. They were tried and shown to be an improvment over what was being done. Time and trust are key on this issue.
    Thanks for the reply, and good luck to your department

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    Quick update for those following,

    The uniform program is coming along nicely. We have some demo coats being made now that we are going to take back to the department so people can see what there buying.

    We have a mandatory meeting tomorrow, rumors has it the Chief is going to retire. He's been chief for 10 years, and on the department for 20. If he is in fact retiring, most likely the EMS Captain and Fire LT will be following him. They have both been on the department since the 80's

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    Lets see... A volunteer Fire Department where the Chief is paid $600.00 per month and the Asst. gets 300.00 per month. Responding FF's with probation completed and attending more than 5 calls get $10.00 per call. Humm.... Population of the Twp. is 2,158 (2000 yr) Fairly new Engine 91-2 and a new tanker on the way.... But we need to have a change in the leadership because the "Old Guard" wasn't progressive enough. And to think all this comment on the coming change has been made by a FF with only 2 years experience. Maybe the problem is a lack of insight into what has been accomplished and how it was achieved over the past 20 years. Even if the Chief only learned at 1/2 your learning capacity, he still has 1,000% more knowledge from experience and handling the political aspects of dealing with the politicians of your township. Glad to see he has decided to continue on as a firefighter and not walk away. My advice would be to find a way to associate with that man and absorb some of that "Old School" so when you eventually step into the role of leader, you can handle it properly.
    Just another "Old Guy" with a few (43) years in the harness.

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    KuhShise,

    As i have mentioned in this post, i have "calmed down" from my original harshness i presented in this thread. When i made it we were going through a rather rough patch, believe it or not i actually really admire my Chief for what he has done with the department.

    As an update, the Chief did resign from the Chief position but is remaining on the department as a fireman, where he will be a great asset as a driver/engineer/pump operator. While he was Chief, we passed every level that came to vote, purchased 4 new trucks and also increased the pay rate 3 times over a 10 year period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChathamVFD9921 View Post
    Just some quick notes,

    I did get 3 committees started in the last month or so. We have a uniform committee thats going to set up a uniform program for the department, a by-laws committee that is going to straighten out the by-laws situation, and recently a workout equipment committee thats going to be in charge of getting workout equipment for the station.

    Things are moving in a positive way, and there has been a big difference when it comes to hospital times. We used to spend almost an hour at the hospital after dropping a patient off, now that time is down to 10 minutes. It took 3 years to change "the way its always been done", but its a change for the better.

    Also, we recently purchased a 3000 gallon E-one pumper tanker to replace two 1970's homemade tankers that are currently in our fleet. It will be the first new fire apparatus we have purchased since 2004.
    This post is useless without pics.

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