How much equipment?

[Firetacoma1]

Some background first: Small rural mountain department (all residential), 3 engines, 3 tenders and 2 light rescues with pumps and 2 wildland rigs.

Our department is the result of 2 departments combining about 12 years ago. Since that time, we've acquired 6 of those pieces, but most of the equipment was moved over from the pieces they replaced... as a result there is no standardization in what is carried on each type of engine/tender.

Half of our district has hydrants, half has a fairly complete network of cisterns. Driveways can be fairly long and don't always allow for engine access close enough for use of our 150' preconnects.

I've reviewed NFPA 1901 as well as ISO requirements for fire hose and other equipment. But I'm looking for real world recommendations/suggestions (just talking engines and tenders at this time).

My thoughts:

Hose:
1000' 4" supply (already existing, standardized)
300' 3" blitz line (no nozzle attached, can be wyed to 1 3/4" for long driveways)
150' 1 3/4" Crosslays x2 with combination fog nozzles
25' 4" hydrant fill hose x2 (do they make a threaded end instead of stortz? It would be nice to have one be thread/stortz and one be stortz/stortz)
300' 3" rolled
300' 1 3/4" rolled
50' 1 1/2" rubber for re-circ to cistern or jet siphon operation
20' 4" hard suction
20' 2 1/2" hard suction

Appliances:
2 1/2" double male x2
2 1/2" double female x2
1 1/2" double male x2
1 1/2" double female x2
2 1/2" F x 1 1/2" M x3
2 1/2" F by double 1 1/2" M gated wye x1
1 1/2" gated wye x1
2 1/2" gate valve
4" stortz by 2 1/2" F x2
4" stortz by 2 1/2" M x2
2 1/2" stacked tip nozzle with play pipe
2 1/2" fog nozzle with play pipe
1 1/2" combination fog nozzle (spare)
1 1/2" diffuser
2 1/2" diffuser
Low level strainer (tenders only)
Jet siphon (tenders only)

That's kind of where I am so far. Anything glaringly missing? If so, it could have just been a brain fart on my part, but I could have failed to consider it too. I'd like to do this exercise with everything eventually... and try to make the compartment locations consistent as well to simplify finding things.

And if you're still reading this at this point, thanks!

[CaptOldTimer]

You guys might consider a Mini or Midi piece of apparatus so that can be taken up the long driveways. Of course they would be laying out a supply line as they proceed up the drive to the house or other structure.

Having seen the long driveways and almost impossible driveways to travel, plus arches over the entrances of some driveways, this being that the house has been there for years. This resulted in procuring a Midi pumper, 1000/250/20 and a mini, aka brush truck, with a 300/300, along with other types of Engine, Quint's and other related apparatus to respond.

The Midi and full size Pumpers are all loaded with a minimum of 1000 feet of 4 inch LDH and 1000 feet of 2-1/2 hose and upwards of 600 feet of 1-3/4 inch hose line.

[GTRider245]

Do you guys not have 2 1/2" attack lines?

600' of rolled hose is a lot. I would carry enough to repack one crosslay on scene and a few sections of 3".

Don't waste your money on stack tips or playpipes. Figure out a desired flow for your large lines and get a shutoff with that tip size. The 1", 1 1/8", 1 1/4" stack tip trend makes no sense what so ever since flowing 200 GPM from a 2 1/2" is counter productive. Match the nozzle pressure and flow on the fog nozzles. Although since you don't have any 2 1/2" on your list I don't see where you'll be using these much.

To answer your threading question for the 4", yes you can get it with regular 6" threads on one end and 4 1/2" threads on the other.

I don't see any gate valves or piston intakes on the list. How are you bringing your supply lines into the pumps?

[Firetacoma1]

You guys might consider a Mini or Midi piece of apparatus so that can be taken up the long driveways.

I had that same thought but after looking at it, most of our engines can get within 300' of pretty much every structure. From there we can deploy our 3" blitz line with a gated wye to 1 3/4" attack lines interior.

We don't have any pavement queens, everything is 4 wheel drive and short wheel base.

[Firetacoma1]

Do you guys not have 2 1/2" attack lines?
Not currently. We use 3" for attack line if the 1 3/4" isn't cutting it, but at that point it's really probably gone defensive.

600' of rolled hose is a lot. I would carry enough to repack one crosslay on scene and a few sections of 3".
The thought behind 300' of each is if we have to extend beyond the reach of the engine discharges. It would be nice to be able to operate 2 lines of either size without having to disconnect the pre-connects.

Don't waste your money on stack tips or playpipes. Figure out a desired flow for your large lines and get a shutoff with that tip size. The 1", 1 1/8", 1 1/4" stack tip trend makes no sense what so ever since flowing 200 GPM from a 2 1/2" is counter productive. Match the nozzle pressure and flow on the fog nozzles. Although since you don't have any 2 1/2" on your list I don't see where you'll be using these much.
We already have these due to ISO requirements, so it's not a waste of money at this point. They're deployed off 3" line (which was re-purposed supply line) primarily for defensive operations. I suppose in a pinch, with enough manpower they could be taken interior.

To answer your threading question for the 4", yes you can get it with regular 6" threads on one end and 4 1/2" threads on the other.
Cool, I think this will be of great benefit to add, instead of having to dig through the hydrant kits to find the proper adapter each time. I didn't mention the existing hydrant kits and their contents in my list, but those are already standardized.

I don't see any gate valves or piston intakes on the list. How are you bringing your supply lines into the pumps?

Those are already standardized as well. Engineers side has a 4" threaded connection for hard suction, Officers side has a steamer valve with a 4" stortz for hydrant supply.

[voyager9]

What is the primary purpose of the rolled 3" and 1.75"? If it's mainly for extending the blitz line then I would probably store it differently.

If the 1.75" is going to be used to set up attack lines off a wye on the blitz line then I would store them as 100' metro packs rather than individually rolled. It's easier for guys to grab and carry 200 feet when it's 2 metro packs instead of 4 rolls. Also less connections to make when trying to set up the leader line. Keep the appliances/adapters in a separate bag stored near the packs.

Similarly I'd maybe store the additional 3" as a dead load under/next to the blitz line. Maybe set it as an additional blitz.. it can always be pulled and broken as needed. Also reduces making all those connections should the full 300' be needed.

Agree with the above.. no 2.5"?

All our 5' has Stortz fittings, and we have threaded hydrant adapters on the lines usually used to hit them. I'd think that would be preferable to having threaded adapters fixed on to the LDH.. Standardizing with Stortz but having an adapter that can be moved if needed may give you more flexibility.. what if your specialized hose goes OOS?

[Firetacoma1]

What is the primary purpose of the rolled 3" and 1.75"? If it's mainly for extending the blitz line then I would probably store it differently. Yes, primarily to extend the blitz.

If the 1.75" is going to be used to set up attack lines off a wye on the blitz line then I would store them as 100' metro packs rather than individually rolled. It's easier for guys to grab and carry 200 feet when it's 2 metro packs instead of 4 rolls. Also less connections to make when trying to set up the leader line. Keep the appliances/adapters in a separate bag stored near the packs. I've looked at doing a sort of hose pack for this extra hose but storage location became an issue. Perhaps though if the compartment that's currently holding all the rolled hose were set up with flaked/bundled hose, it could all be made to fit. I like the idea of keeping the necessary adapters in a bag or kit along with that hose instead of in the engineers compartment as we currently do.

Similarly I'd maybe store the additional 3" as a dead load under/next to the blitz line. Maybe set it as an additional blitz.. it can always be pulled and broken as needed. Also reduces making all those connections should the full 300' be needed. If I'm following here, have the preconnected blitz line on top of the non-preconnected 3"? That could work, though again, space is a concern. 300' is already stretching the limits of the bed it's in.

Agree with the above.. no 2.5"? One side of our district's engines have some (one of the old pre-merge departments) but the other side is using old 3" supply for blitz/extended reach. We probably don't have room for both 3" and 2.5", is 2.5" adequate for extended reach up to 300'?

All our 5' has Stortz fittings, and we have threaded hydrant adapters on the lines usually used to hit them. I'd think that would be preferable to having threaded adapters fixed on to the LDH.. Standardizing with Stortz but having an adapter that can be moved if needed may give you more flexibility.. what if your specialized hose goes OOS?This is a very good point. It's probably a better idea just to leave it as stortz/stortz and leave the hydrant/stortz fitting preconnected to our 25' hydrant fill whip rather than custom ordering hose.

Very good input! This so far is a mental exercise for me, trying to imagine every scenario to ensure that we have the bases covered. As far as double males, double females, etc. is there a rule or recommendation for numbers to carry? 2 of each sounded reasonable to me.

[CaptOldTimer]

I had that same thought but after looking at it, most of our engines can get within 300' of pretty much every structure. From there we can deploy our 3" blitz line with a gated wye to 1 3/4" attack lines interior.

We don't have any pavement queens, everything is 4 wheel drive and short wheel base.

Mini's and Midi's come in 4 wheel drive.

Here is a photo I shot this past summer of a Midi, which would be a good piece for those real set backs and narrow driveways where a full size pumper can't reach.

2009 GMC-Pierce 4x4 Contender 1000.250.20 CAFS


.

[slackjawedyokel]

for your 3" blitz line -look into getting you a blitzfire type monitor with a hydrant bag strapped on with a combo and stacked tips - have a highrise pack with a gated wye attached on top. Its pretty versitle.

[Firetacoma1]

Mini's and Midi's come in 4 wheel drive.

Here is a photo I shot this past summer of a Midi, which would be a good piece for those real set backs and narrow driveways where a full size pumper can't reach.

2009 GMC-Pierce 4x4 Contender 1000.250.20 CAFS


.

It's not THAT much smaller than our current fleet actually. Plus, we'd have to build another spot in the station to house it, raise money to buy it, build replacement into the capital plan etc. I think looking at how we carry and deploy our hose is the way we're going to win this war, not through new apparatus. As much as I like shiny things!

[voyager9]

I've looked at doing a sort of hose pack for this extra hose but storage location became an issue. Perhaps though if the compartment that's currently holding all the rolled hose were set up with flaked/bundled hose, it could all be made to fit. I like the idea of keeping the necessary adapters in a bag or kit along with that hose instead of in the engineers compartment as we currently do.

Check out the Fire Engineering article on the metro pack for an idea of the size of the bundle compared to individual rolled lengths. It's mainly talking about their use in highrise scenarios but we also use them to extend blitz lines. At least for 1.75" it probably takes up about the same space in the compartment but is MUCH easier/faster to carry and deploy.

Two vids on deploying the metro pack off a 3' blitz (not mine):
Part 1
Part 2

[voyager9]

Similarly I'd maybe store the additional 3" as a dead load under/next to the blitz line. Maybe set it as an additional blitz.. it can always be pulled and broken as needed. Also reduces making all those connections should the full 300' be needed. If I'm following here, have the preconnected blitz line on top of the non-preconnected 3"? That could work, though again, space is a concern. 300' is already stretching the limits of the bed it's in.

I posted the above before reading you use also use the 3" for "attack" lines.. Here they're only for supply (mainly leader/blitz, FDC, or Truck-truck).

At the time I was picturing what you posted, stack the extra hose under the preconnected 3" or set it up next to it as an additional stack (not preconnected). Obviously room in the bed is the constraining factor.

My main thought is that rolled hose is probably one of the lead efficient means for storing hose when it needs to be quickly carried and deployed. At least for 1.75/2.5/3". A roll takes up a lot of space, is hard to stack unless laid flat and takes a lot more time to deploy and connect then other means.

[Firetacoma1]

I posted the above before reading you use also use the 3" for "attack" lines.. Here they're only for supply (mainly leader/blitz, FDC, or Truck-truck).

At the time I was picturing what you posted, stack the extra hose under the preconnected 3" or set it up next to it as an additional stack (not preconnected). Obviously room in the bed is the constraining factor.

My main thought is that rolled hose is probably one of the lead efficient means for storing hose when it needs to be quickly carried and deployed. At least for 1.75/2.5/3". A roll takes up a lot of space, is hard to stack unless laid flat and takes a lot more time to deploy and connect then other means.

Rolled hose does suck, I agree completely. Those videos you linked are great. I think I can put together something that will work great for what we see around here based on that setup.

We really should standardize with either 2.5 or 3" but I'm not sure that I'll be able to justify the cost of all new 2.5" since we have so much of the old 3" supply line hanging around. We'll see though. I'd really like to be able to use more 2.5" for interior operations on some of our larger/more involved structures, but I think it's going to take a lot of training to get the membership ready. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

[FWDbuff]

Hose:
1000' 4" supply (already existing, standardized)300' 3" blitz line (no nozzle attached, can be wyed to 1 3/4" for long driveways) OK
150' 1 3/4" Crosslays x2 with combination fog nozzles
25' 4" hydrant fill hose x2 (do they make a threaded end instead of stortz? It would be nice to have one be thread/stortz and one be stortz/stortz)Any hose shop can make up a custom length for you, one end NST, one end stortz
300' 3" rolled
300' 1 3/4" rolled
50' 1 1/2" rubber for re-circ to cistern or jet siphon operation
20' 4" hard suction Why 4"??? I assume with cisterns you will do a lot of drafting. Why limit your draft to (approx) 700gpm or less???
20' 2 1/2" hard suction

Appliances:
2 1/2" double male x2
2 1/2" double female x2
1 1/2" double male x2
1 1/2" double female x2
2 1/2" F x 1 1/2" M x3
2 1/2" F by double 1 1/2" M gated wye x1
1 1/2" gated wye x1
2 1/2" gate valve
4" stortz by 2 1/2" F x2
4" stortz by 2 1/2" M x2
2 1/2" stacked tip nozzle with play pipe
2 1/2" fog nozzle with play pipe
1 1/2" combination fog nozzle (spare)
1 1/2" diffuser
2 1/2" diffuser
Low level strainer (tenders only)
Jet siphon (tenders only)

That's kind of where I am so far. Anything glaringly missing? If so, it could have just been a brain fart on my part, but I could have failed to consider it too. I'd like to do this exercise with everything eventually... and try to make the compartment locations consistent as well to simplify finding things.

And if you're still reading this at this point, thanks!

What size are the pumps? If they are 1000gpm or more, I would certainly bump the hard sleeves up to 5" (at least) to maximize your pump's capability. I would carry three of each adapter but thats me. How about a floating strainer?

[Firetacoma1]

What size are the pumps? If they are 1000gpm or more, I would certainly bump the hard sleeves up to 5" (at least) to maximize your pump's capability. I would carry three of each adapter but thats me. How about a floating strainer?

You know, I may be mistaken on the hard suction, it probably is 5" now that you mention it.

Most pumps are 750GPM, two are 1250GPM.

No use for a floating strainer, no static bodies of water in district.

[FWDbuff]

You know, I may be mistaken on the hard suction, it probably is 5" now that you mention it.

Most pumps are 750GPM, two are 1250GPM.

No use for a floating strainer, no static bodies of water in district.

The 1250's should have 6" sleeves- as long as they have 6" steamers.

The 750's should do fine with 5".

[Nozzle nut 22]

The 2) 100' hosepacks for the leader line could always go up top, either in the dunnage area, or on top of the 3". We store ours on top of the leader line on our old Pierce engine. ( only has driver's side high sides, and a generator and ventilation gear in the officer's compts...) It's not ideal, but it works.

The hose packs can also be used to :
a) Extend one of the preconnects.

b) make a short 100' trash or outside exposure line. Just unstrap it and go.

c) connected together to produce a 200' attack line.


I would also suggest using some of those spare lengths to extend at least one of your current preconnects. Perhaps make one of them a 250' line. My dept has similar issues to yours- houses built WAYYY back from the road, with narrow, overgrown drives. We even have one with a narrow culvert half way down it! ( who knows what it's weight capacity is??) Not to mention schools and commercial buildings with some SERIOUSLY long stretches possible. We carry up to 300' in crosslays, plus a 400' leader line and the hose packs. Sounds like that would suit your needs well, too.

How are your main hosebeds set up? We carry 1500-2000" of 5" in the center, and have a leader line on one side, and a long 2 1/2" precon on the other. Both of the outside beds have 2 1/2" rear discharges located right underneath.

The only donuts we carry are 5" and 3" hydrant lengths, and 1 or 2 spare 1 3/4".

[slackjawedyokel]

Do you reall y need two 4" stortz X 2-1/2" F and two 4" stortz X 2-1/2" Males ? why not one of each with a dbl male or female adaptor on it ? And you have a 3" blitz line withoth a nozzle connected - its easier to take it off if you need to hook a wye up than chase a nozzle down -again try having a blitzfire hooked up to your 3" blitz line with a nozzle and tips in a hydrant bag strapped to it, connect your wye and your high rise pack to it. Way more versitle - you can make a quick hit with the blitzfire then extend your highrise or use your highrise and if you get chased out, slap on your tip of choice and go defensive.