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    Default Pay for Spray

    Here we go again. Same department. Same area. Same stupid homeowner. ("We knew about the fee, we just figured it would never happen")

    http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local...135069773.html


    Home burns while firefighters watch, again
    Reporter - Jason Hibbs
    Photojournalist - Mason Watkins
    Story Created: Dec 5, 2011 at 8:50 PM CST
    Story Updated: Dec 5, 2011 at 10:33 PM CST
    OBION COUNTY, Tenn. — A local family watches their home burn to the ground and just a few feet behind them, firefighters watch, too.
    It's happened multiple times before in one local community: firefighters refuse to respond because the homeowner didn't pay a fire subscription fee.
    The last time this happened, the city of South Fulton, Tennessee, received a lot of heat nationwide for this policy. That was more than a year ago but nothing has changed.
    The mayor said it comes down to simple business. If they don't collect fire fees, the fire department can't survive and if they make exceptions to the rule, no one will ever pay the fee.
    Besides that, he likes the "pay for spray" policy and said it's fair.
    But that's hard to stomach when you've just lost your home and everything you've worked for.
    "In an emergency, the first thing you think of, 'Call 9-1-1," homeowner Vicky Bell said.
    Firefighters came out.
    Bell said, "9-1-1 said they were in fact dispatched and they showed that they were on the scene."
    But once on the scene, they only watched.
    "You could look out my mom's trailer and see the trucks sitting at a distance," Bell said.
    For Bell, that sight was almost as disturbing as the fire itself.
    "We just wished we could've gotten more out," Bell said.
    It's a controversial policy that we've dealt with before. If you live in the city, you get fire protection but if not, you have to pay the $75 fire protection fee each year. With this policy, the city makes no exceptions.
    "There's no way to go to every fire and keep up the manpower, the equipment, and just the funding for the fire department," Mayor David Crocker said.
    And Crocker said by now, everyone should know about the city's fire policy.
    "After the last situation, I would hope that everybody would be well aware of the rural fire fees, this time," Crocker said.
    Bell and her boyfriend admitted they were aware but thought this would never happen to them.
    For tonight, this hotel is home and they're happy be alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Here we go again. Same department. Same area. Same stupid homeowner. ("We knew about the fee, we just figured it would never happen")

    http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local...135069773.html


    Home burns while firefighters watch, again
    Reporter - Jason Hibbs
    Photojournalist - Mason Watkins
    Story Created: Dec 5, 2011 at 8:50 PM CST
    Story Updated: Dec 5, 2011 at 10:33 PM CST
    OBION COUNTY, Tenn. — A local family watches their home burn to the ground and just a few feet behind them, firefighters watch, too.
    It's happened multiple times before in one local community: firefighters refuse to respond because the homeowner didn't pay a fire subscription fee.
    The last time this happened, the city of South Fulton, Tennessee, received a lot of heat nationwide for this policy. That was more than a year ago but nothing has changed.
    The mayor said it comes down to simple business. If they don't collect fire fees, the fire department can't survive and if they make exceptions to the rule, no one will ever pay the fee.
    Besides that, he likes the "pay for spray" policy and said it's fair.
    But that's hard to stomach when you've just lost your home and everything you've worked for.
    "In an emergency, the first thing you think of, 'Call 9-1-1," homeowner Vicky Bell said.
    Firefighters came out.
    Bell said, "9-1-1 said they were in fact dispatched and they showed that they were on the scene."
    But once on the scene, they only watched.
    "You could look out my mom's trailer and see the trucks sitting at a distance," Bell said.
    For Bell, that sight was almost as disturbing as the fire itself.
    "We just wished we could've gotten more out," Bell said.
    It's a controversial policy that we've dealt with before. If you live in the city, you get fire protection but if not, you have to pay the $75 fire protection fee each year. With this policy, the city makes no exceptions.
    "There's no way to go to every fire and keep up the manpower, the equipment, and just the funding for the fire department," Mayor David Crocker said.
    And Crocker said by now, everyone should know about the city's fire policy.
    "After the last situation, I would hope that everybody would be well aware of the rural fire fees, this time," Crocker said.
    Bell and her boyfriend admitted they were aware but thought this would never happen to them.
    For tonight, this hotel is home and they're happy be alive.
    And they paid the price for not paying the fee.

    No problem with the department's policy here.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Amazing.................simply amazing.........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And they paid the price for not paying the fee.

    No problem with the department's policy here.
    Agreed.

    We looked at this from every possible angle last time it came up. The fire department did nothing wrong and had no obligation what so ever to respond at all. The holier than thou morons who will be screaming "OMG how could we just sit there and let it burn" have obviously never made it far enough up the chain to have to deal with fire department budgets or politics.

    Not to mention as was made public when the first fire occurred, the residents of Obion County have voted down a county fire department multiple times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    I'm not going to pretend to know the legalities of this schit, I think it's as rediculous as LaFireIdiot, but can someone who know better explain to me why the Department could not act (put the fire out) and then invoice the property owner for services rendered- and if the property owner does not pay within an alloted amount of time, why could they then not sue the owner, and/or place a municipal lien against the property????
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I'm not going to pretend to know the legalities of this schit, I think it's as rediculous as LaFireIdiot, but can someone who know better explain to me why the Department could not act (put the fire out) and then invoice the property owner for services rendered- and if the property owner does not pay within an alloted amount of time, why could they then not sue the owner, and/or place a municipal lien against the property????
    That's an awful lot of legal work, and legal fees for a likely volunteer department.

    Bottom line, the community knows that if they want fire protection, they pay the fee. If they decide not to pay the fee, they don't get fire protection. It's the homeowners reponsibility to make that choice, and if they decide not to pay the fee, deal with the concequences of that decision. It's really that simple.

    It's not the fire department's problem. It's not the fire department's responsibility.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I'm not going to pretend to know the legalities of this schit, I think it's as rediculous as LaFireIdiot, but can someone who know better explain to me why the Department could not act (put the fire out) and then invoice the property owner for services rendered- and if the property owner does not pay within an alloted amount of time, why could they then not sue the owner, and/or place a municipal lien against the property????
    I agree. No different than an EMS call where you bill the insurance company/patent for transport. OMG I'm agreeing with FWDbuff. Scarey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I'm not going to pretend to know the legalities of this schit, I think it's as rediculous as LaFireIdiot, but can someone who know better explain to me why the Department could not act (put the fire out) and then invoice the property owner for services rendered- and if the property owner does not pay within an alloted amount of time, why could they then not sue the owner, and/or place a municipal lien against the property????
    Try building an operating budget off of "projected" fees you may or may not collect from residents AFTER a fire. Not to mention that the first time this was allowed, you would basically be kissing your dues money goodbye, since everyone would figure you would come either way.

    I am not pretending that this is a good system. However, it is the one they chose. THEY being the citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Agreed.

    We looked at this from every possible angle last time it came up. The fire department did nothing wrong and had no obligation what so ever to respond at all. The holier than thou morons who will be screaming "OMG how could we just sit there and let it burn" have obviously never made it far enough up the chain to have to deal with fire department budgets or politics.

    Not to mention as was made public when the first fire occurred, the residents of Obion County have voted down a county fire department multiple times.
    I agree. ... This is going to be good though
    Bring enough hose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's an awful lot of legal work, and legal fees for a likely volunteer department.

    Bottom line, the community knows that if they want fire protection, they pay the fee. If they decide not to pay the fee, they don't get fire protection. It's the homeowners reponsibility to make that choice, and if they decide not to pay the fee, deal with the concequences of that decision. It's really that simple.

    It's not the fire department's problem. It's not the fire department's responsibility.
    Once again, I cringe at the thought of it, but I have to agree.

    If you have never operated under one of these systems you really will never understand the politics of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I'm not going to pretend to know the legalities of this schit, I think it's as rediculous as LaFireIdiot, but can someone who know better explain to me why the Department could not act (put the fire out) and then invoice the property owner for services rendered- and if the property owner does not pay within an alloted amount of time, why could they then not sue the owner, and/or place a municipal lien against the property????
    And the department ends up with a bunch of liens that don't get satisified until the land sells in 50 years, attorney fees (yes, you can include them in the recovery, but the attorney wants his money NOW, not later) not to mention the legal morass from Juniors trailer burning, but it was on his moms land, that really belongs to uncle smackie, but no one has heard from old Uncle Smackie in 30 years..... (Trust me, rural TN, it is out there)

    It is so simple, even simpler when the homeowner admits THEY KNEW ABOUT THE FEE, but did not pay it on their own free will because IT WON'T HAPPEN TO THEM!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    but can someone who know better explain to me why the Department could not act (put the fire out) and then invoice the property owner for services rendered-
    It's very hard to plan a budget around projected income. Plus, if the homeowners can pay the fee at the time of a fire then why would they bother paying every year?

    I could see some system where the FD has the option to bill at the time of the fire at a higher rate.. maybe the Fee + expenses + penalty. If it's $75 a year or a $500 one-time cost then there is incentive for residents to pay the $75. Of course, there's incentive now and some STILL aren't paying it..
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    I used to work for a department that did the same thing, albeit under slightly different circumstances. We had a housing development that was built out in the sticks, in this weird no man's land between our city coverage area and the county volunteer agency. Our nearest station was 8 miles away and the volunteer agency was 15 miles away. Our city went to the homeowners in the development and told them they needed to cough up a
    "pay to spray" fee or form their own volunteer department. The homeowners unwisely told the city to pound sand. Several years since that decision, the housing development has had two or three homes burn down. The department still refuses to respond unless there is a rescue situation reported (not much good they could do anyway being 8 miles away).

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    It's very hard to plan a budget around projected income. Plus, if the homeowners can pay the fee at the time of a fire then why would they bother paying every year?

    I could see some system where the FD has the option to bill at the time of the fire at a higher rate.. maybe the Fee + expenses + penalty. If it's $75 a year or a $500 one-time cost then there is incentive for residents to pay the $75. Of course, there's incentive now and some STILL aren't paying it..
    And folks will still not pay unless you go through ane xpensive and time consuming collection process. And even then, you may not see the money.

    This is about the most simple situation in the world.

    Pay = fire protection. No pay = no fire protection. Make the choice. Deal with the concequences. And don't whin and complain if you get burned, so to speak, because you knew the deal.

    Once again, this is not the fire department's problem. it's no the fire department's responsibility.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Thank you for explaining some of the legalities and budget issues, none of that really crossed my mind. I guess it's a regional kind of thing, no one around here would ever consider implementing something like this, but then again we are not a rural environment. Personally I could never stand by and watch someone lose everything, their stupidity or not. Put the fire out and invoice them, if they are that worried about getting paid, pay the full amount (in full) in x amount of days or start accruing stiff penalty fees. Just sayin but thats me.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Default Fire Fees

    After taxing my brain to the Fire Science classes I attended many years ago...wasn't there "Fire Marks" in the early years of our history. If you didn't have a fire mark on your house they wouldn't respond???? Different Insurance Companies...different Fire marks????
    Looks like horse $hit on a wagon wheel to me......Comes around every so often. Very bad idea to me.....just saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    After taxing my brain to the Fire Science classes I attended many years ago...wasn't there "Fire Marks" in the early years of our history. If you didn't have a fire mark on your house they wouldn't respond???? Different Insurance Companies...different Fire marks????
    Looks like horse $hit on a wagon wheel to me......Comes around every so often. Very bad idea to me.....just saying.
    Yup, back in the days of all private, insurance paid fire companies. Gangs of New York is a great movie to watch for a few minutes of firefighting history.

    EDIT: found it on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-vBJ8cS08U
    Last edited by GTRider245; 12-06-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayDudley View Post
    After taxing my brain to the Fire Science classes I attended many years ago...wasn't there "Fire Marks" in the early years of our history. If you didn't have a fire mark on your house they wouldn't respond???? Different Insurance Companies...different Fire marks????
    Looks like horse $hit on a wagon wheel to me......Comes around every so often. Very bad idea to me.....just saying.
    Well so is the idea of voting down a county funded fire department, not once, but multiple times, that would eliminate this whole issue. But guess what? Apprently this community has done just that.

    So guess what? The majority of the residents voting must have no problem with this system and are in some cases, willing to roll the dice by not paying the fee.

    It's the system they apprently have chosen.

    To me, I agree it's a very bad idea, but I don't leave there. And apprently those who live there don't agree.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Try building an operating budget off of "projected" fees you may or may not collect from residents AFTER a fire.
    ....
    I am not pretending that this is a good system. However, it is the one they chose. THEY being the citizens.
    Bingo!

    It's the homeowners' choice. In this case, the homeowner chose to gamble and lost. Sucks to be them.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    So, why do they even show up then if they haven't paid? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face to have firefighters just standing around while the owners are watching everything they own go up in flames.

    Are they there for safety to keep owners from going back in to get stuff? I'd hope they would make a rescue if their was someone still trapped. Just wondering where they draw the line.

    Strange system, but I'd be paying the $75.
    Nothing is as unimpressive as someone who is unwilling to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yjbrody View Post
    So, why do they even show up then if they haven't paid? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face to have firefighters just standing around while the owners are watching everything they own go up in flames.

    Are they there for safety to keep owners from going back in to get stuff? I'd hope they would make a rescue if their was someone still trapped. Just wondering where they draw the line.

    Strange system, but I'd be paying the $75.
    The last time this occurred, I believe they said they show up to make sure the fire doesn't spread to other homes, especially homes that have paid the fire protection fee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief_Roy View Post
    The last time this occurred, I believe they said they show up to make sure the fire doesn't spread to other homes, especially homes that have paid the fire protection fee.
    That's my take as well.

    The fire protection portion of my property taxes (a separate line item), isn't far from that $75.00. I think the current rate in this township is about 45 cents per thousand, or $45.00 for a $100K house. A couple of districts in the county are over $2.00 per thousand.

    But it's part of my levied taxes - I don't get to opt out. The only time people around here complain is if there's a huge increase for some reason. They understand how it works.

    It's not like the fire departments are going around burning houses like mob enforcers. But you'd think people would get the message.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    I have one question for the Home Owner. "How that work out for you?"

    To build upon what GT said, Talk about "old school" this type of pay to spray policy harkens back to days of Benjamin Franklin:

    In 1736 young Benjamin Franklin, already one of the most influential men in Pennsylvania, began urging readers of his "Pennsylvanian Gazette" to establish fire-fighting companies. Soon, six volunteer corps were established in Philadelphia. In 1752, insurance companies in the colonies began issuing plaques, or "fire marks," to be prominently displayed on building fronts as an incentive for volunteer fire fighters to save their insured buildings. These fire marks are extremely rare these days as most of them were made of lead and were melted to make ammunition for the Revolutionary War. With bonuses offered as incentives, rivalries ensued between groups. Marked homes and businesses were brawled over, while residences on the same street, with no fire mark, often burned to the ground.© Copyright - A Fire Pro

    Talk about things coming full circle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjbrody View Post
    So, why do they even show up then if they haven't paid? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face to have firefighters just standing around while the owners are watching everything they own go up in flames.

    Are they there for safety to keep owners from going back in to get stuff? I'd hope they would make a rescue if their was someone still trapped. Just wondering where they draw the line.

    Strange system, but I'd be paying the $75.
    It is clearly stated, they respond in case rescue is needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Talk about things coming full circle.
    (off topic) in more ways than one......Philadelphia Fire Department Engine Company 8, which can directly and unquestionably tie it's bloodline to Benjamin Franklin's original fire company, was shut down last year by the PFD administration in a cost-saving move. 250 years down the schitter.

    (and then Lloyd Ayres, the very man who whacked them, had the audacity to speak at a historical society gathering about Ben and his company.)

    And if you look carefully around Olde Philadelphia, you can still spot a firemark here and there.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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