1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2

    Default Traditional Helmet Vs. Firedome

    My current department is still wearing the Bullard Fire Dome helmet "Yellow" with no shield. It's a fairly new full time department and now with a lot of us off probation we all coming together and writing a proposal to switch to the Composite black traditional or leather helmet. So what I'm asking is if anyone has good safety facts or selling points on the Composite vs Yellow Turtle shell. We all all ready for change and to carry out the tradition. All help is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks Cali Fire

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,239

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by califire View Post
    My current department is still wearing the Bullard Fire Dome helmet "Yellow" with no shield. It's a fairly new full time department and now with a lot of us off probation we all coming together and writing a proposal to switch to the Composite black traditional or leather helmet. So what I'm asking is if anyone has good safety facts or selling points on the Composite vs Yellow Turtle shell. We all all ready for change and to carry out the tradition. All help is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks Cali Fire
    Check Bullard's web site.

    FWIW - we wore the Cairns Phoenix and Metro for years without any front piece. We had company numbers on each side and the officer's title arc above the number.

    If the FD supplies the helmet for all members and they are alike and it is an approved lid, why do you rookies want to
    change everything?



    .
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by califire View Post
    My current department is still wearing the Bullard Fire Dome helmet "Yellow" with no shield. It's a fairly new full time department and now with a lot of us off probation we all coming together and writing a proposal to switch to the Composite black traditional or leather helmet. So what I'm asking is if anyone has good safety facts or selling points on the Composite vs Yellow Turtle shell. We all all ready for change and to carry out the tradition. All help is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks Cali Fire
    Haha, sounds all too familiar. They're going to tell you the same thing we were told when we went from 660 metros to 1010 traditionals, "make it just as cheap to buy and we'll see." Well, after researching it and finding brand new 1010's that cost marginally more than the 660's, we got our traditional style helmets.

    Good luck you, but just a hint, you're not going to prove that the traditional is any more safe or rugged than the turtle shell helmets you are wearing now. What it's ultimately going to come down to is price, that is what the penny pinchers understand.

    Now, if you want to go from using Bullard to maybe another brand that has a better rep, then that may be a better approach for you. Not a big fan of Bullard myself.

    Whatever you do, do your own research, don't take a stranger's word for it.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 12-18-2011 at 05:13 AM.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Mass
    Posts
    1,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Good luck you, but just a hint, you're not going to prove that the traditional is any more safe or rugged than the turtle shell helmets you are wearing now. What it's ultimately going to come down to is price, that is what the penny punchers understand.
    Well said.

    A traditional style helmet (either plastic, composite or Leather) will never be as safe as a snag-less smooth dome. That is obvious just be looking at it before you even get into specs. So forget trying to present and win that argument. You won't. As nice as traditional helmets look, they are not any tougher in terms of impact resistance or heat resistance. Excluding leathers, both traditional and modern styles are made of the same materials.

    Price will be the factor. Especially if the people making the $$ decisions know nothing about looks or tradition.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,592

    Default

    Really ..

    Having a "cooler" helmet is that important to you?

    With all due respect, as rookies you really need to be concerned about far more important things, like actually learning how to do the job than what helmets you are wearing. As several posters have said, the traditional helmets provide no more protection than the tactical tupperware.

    After you get a few years in, if the helmets you are wearing is still that big an issue, but for now, wear the helmets that your superiors have determined that you will wear, and just learn the job.

    Enough said.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really ..

    Having a "cooler" helmet is that important to you?

    With all due respect, as rookies you really need to be concerned about far more important things, like actually learning how to do the job than what helmets you are wearing. As several posters have said, the traditional helmets provide no more protection than the tactical tupperware.

    After you get a few years in, if the helmets you are wearing is still that big an issue, but for now, wear the helmets that your superiors have determined that you will wear, and just learn the job.

    Enough said.

    Simply because he is asking questions about a helmet doesn't mean he isn't concerned about other important things. I fail to see the connection.

    And since you don't know the slightest thing about the original poster including his dedication level or his interest in firefighting, perhaps you shouldn't act like such a blowhard towards him.

    "Enough said" ?? You can't be serious.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    RyanK63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fleetville, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Simply because he is asking questions about a helmet doesn't mean he isn't concerned about other important things. I fail to see the connection.

    And since you don't know the slightest thing about the original poster including his dedication level or his interest in firefighting, perhaps you shouldn't act like such a blowhard towards him.

    "Enough said" ?? You can't be serious.
    Don't feed into his bull****. He has his head too far up his *** to see the point of view that anyone else has.
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    - Firefighter 1 / HAZMAT Ops / EMT-B

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    FiremanLyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    948

    Default

    Cost- While the initial investment in a leather is steeper than a "dome" that helmet has a better chance of making it though a career than the dome. (Unless your department follows the new NFPA and retires all gear after 10 year from manufacture date... stupid manufactorers sitting on NFPA committees.) The fiberglass helmets are actually required to be taken out of service anytime a chip or crack appears- moisture can then get inside and degrade their impact resistance. Figure that after replacing the dome it is now more than a single leather... and then you are talking the language the bean counters speak... $$$
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,592

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Simply because he is asking questions about a helmet doesn't mean he isn't concerned about other important things. I fail to see the connection.

    And since you don't know the slightest thing about the original poster including his dedication level or his interest in firefighting, perhaps you shouldn't act like such a blowhard towards him.

    "Enough said" ?? You can't be serious.
    My only point was that for one reason or another the leadership at the department has selected the helmet they use.

    You have a group of firefighters just coming off probation that seem to feel that the helmets they currently have are inadequate, for whatever reason, which is not the case given the traditional and salad bowls are tested to the same standards.

    Yes, there are probably more important things they need to be worrying about. Writing a proposal to switch helmets, likely because the traditional's look cooler, is not something that should be on their radar at this point in their career (volunteer or paid).

    All I know is that if had just come off probation at nay of my past or current departments, and brought up the issue that we should change helmets, that is the response that myself, or any recently-off-probation-firefighter would have received.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-18-2011 at 08:37 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,592

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    Simply because he is asking questions about a helmet doesn't mean he isn't concerned about other important things. I fail to see the connection.

    And since you don't know the slightest thing about the original poster including his dedication level or his interest in firefighting, perhaps you shouldn't act like such a blowhard towards him.

    "Enough said" ?? You can't be serious.
    They stated that they "are writing a proposal" to switch helmets.

    I think most officers would consider just-off-probation firefighters a little too green to be writing proposals to switch department PPE.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They stated that they "are writing a proposal" to switch helmets.

    I think most officers would consider just-off-probation firefighters a little too green to be writing proposals to switch department PPE.
    If you are threatened by a young group of firefighters taking initiative in something they do and taking the time to do research and actually write a proposal to change something that is clearly important to them for whatever reason, then perhaps YOU should to some self-examination.

    I would welcome any new firefighter who actually takes the initiative to do anything that has to do with the department. It sure as hell doesn't have to be my way or the highway when it comes to matters that are inconsequential.

    You can be the guy that berates people for having less time on the fire service than you. And you can be the guy that derides peoples opinions because they are "green".

    I will be the other guy.

    Lets see who they move mountains for.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,592

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    If you are threatened by a young group of firefighters taking initiative in something they do and taking the time to do research and actually write a proposal to change something that is clearly important to them for whatever reason, then perhaps YOU should to some self-examination.

    I would welcome any new firefighter who actually takes the initiative to do anything that has to do with the department. It sure as hell doesn't have to be my way or the highway when it comes to matters that are inconsequential.

    You can be the guy that berates people for having less time on the fire service than you. And you can be the guy that derides peoples opinions because they are "green".

    I will be the other guy.

    Lets see who they move mountains for.
    Never said I would beraid them. I would simply tell them that they may need a little more time before they need to be concerned about PPE.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said I would beraid them. I would simply tell them that they may need a little more time before they need to be concerned about PPE.
    What do you care? Given your views on tactics one doesn't need PPE to be a firefighter.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Thanks for all of your replies. I apologize, I failed to include that we are a very small Department and close group. Our current Battalion Chiefs came to us in a meeting and asked what we wanted to see changed or improved. One of the things that came up was our thoughts on our current helmets. Our BC's are all on board with getting the traditional helmet. I understand that safety, training and learning the job is our number one priority, but our BC assigned it to my station to write up a proposal. Sometime in the near future it could be submitted. I just wanted to weigh the pro's and con's.

    Thanks

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by califire View Post
    Thanks for all of your replies. I apologize, I failed to include that we are a very small Department and close group. Our current Battalion Chiefs came to us in a meeting and asked what we wanted to see changed or improved. One of the things that came up was our thoughts on our current helmets. Our BC's are all on board with getting the traditional helmet. I understand that safety, training and learning the job is our number one priority, but our BC assigned it to my station to write up a proposal. Sometime in the near future it could be submitted. I just wanted to weigh the pro's and con's.

    Thanks
    Hope you found some good info. Like I said, the main thing is getting them on board. Once you've done that it's just finding the helmet you want for the price they want, haha. If I may make one suggestion, the 1010 is a very nice composite that you can get at a decent price. But, that's just my preference. Ask 20 different guys on here which composite they'd go with and you'll get 15-20 different answers. Good luck to you and your new paid department.

  16. #16
    CME
    CME is offline
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    23

    Default

    My Department also issues yellow turtle shells, and many of our guys cgose to purchase their one traditionals. The one thing that I have noticed regarding the turtle shells is that after several years I have noticed that the ridge along the top of the helmet begins to chip and ultimately expose the fiberglass/composite material much faster than a traditional would. There is no fact in this, just an observation I have made.

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CME View Post
    The one thing that I have noticed regarding the turtle shells is that after several years I have noticed that the ridge along the top of the helmet begins to chip and ultimately expose the fiberglass/composite material much faster than a traditional would. There is no fact in this, just an observation I have made.
    Not trying to argue the fact, but are your guys taking care of their helmets? What I mean is, are they careful not to let them fall out of the engine/truck and hit the ground? Are they doing proper search procedures with a hand feeling out front, or just running head first into a wall? The reason I ask is that it may not be your helmets that are the issue, it could very well be the care, or lack thereof, of the firefighters' helmets. I had a Cairns 660 metro, that I went through recruit school with, for several years before the department switched to the 1010's and the ridge on top has never cracked or chipped. I still have it to this day, though it's a display item now as is my 1010. Perhaps your department should look into the issue, if they find that it is firefighter negligence causing the issuees with the turtleshell style helmets, perhaps a policy stating that abuse of gear will result in the firefighter replacing the gear out of pocket. Not sure of the legal ramifications of this regarding unions and all, but that's how the military does it if abuse can be proven.

  18. #18
    CME
    CME is offline
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Not trying to argue the fact, but are your guys taking care of their helmets? What I mean is, are they careful not to let them fall out of the engine/truck and hit the ground? Are they doing proper search procedures with a hand feeling out front, or just running head first into a wall? The reason I ask is that it may not be your helmets that are the issue, it could very well be the care, or lack thereof, of the firefighters' helmets. I had a Cairns 660 metro, that I went through recruit school with, for several years before the department switched to the 1010's and the ridge on top has never cracked or chipped. I still have it to this day, though it's a display item now as is my 1010. Perhaps your department should look into the issue, if they find that it is firefighter negligence causing the issuees with the turtleshell style helmets, perhaps a policy stating that abuse of gear will result in the firefighter replacing the gear out of pocket. Not sure of the legal ramifications of this regarding unions and all, but that's how the military does it if abuse can be proven.
    You very well may be correct. Some of our members may be taking care of there traditionals since they paid for them out of pocket. As far as people misusing their turtle shells, I can not say for certain. It very well may be the case. But it would be rather hard to prove that the individual was misusing their department issue helmet.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,028

    Default

    My career department started a test program several years ago regarding traditional helmets. The push for it came from the line firefighters and was met with some resistance. When the helmets were approved initially it was a voluntary program that meant if you wanted one of the approved helmets you could buy your own. Pehaps 25% of the guys bought their own. Then with some leadership changes the FD began purchasing Cairns 1044 with the faceshield that slides up inside the helmet for new hires and to replace older helmets.

    I was part of the test program and to be honest while I like the look of the traditional style helmet I never felt ill protected while wearing my Cairns 660. When I had to turn back in my test helmet I went back to wearing my 660. I did not buy a traditional helmet to wear at work and only started wearing one when they assigned me one to replace my damaged 660.

    If the members of a fire department want a traditional helmet and can convince the leadership to go along then what is the harm?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CME View Post
    You very well may be correct. Some of our members may be taking care of there traditionals since they paid for them out of pocket. As far as people misusing their turtle shells, I can not say for certain. It very well may be the case. But it would be rather hard to prove that the individual was misusing their department issue helmet.
    Well, by abuse I mean letting the helmet hit the ground, not necissarily on purpose as to damage it, but neglect. But yeah, unless the company officer is paying attention, or even worse the firefighters are rotated a lot, it would be hard to prove abuse.

    I remember one way Dalton kind of instilled care of equipment was during recruit school if we had any air come out of our regulators unintentionally, if we popped the pop off valve by not turning the SCBA fully off before removing the bottle, or if we dropped our helmets we had to run laps around the training grounds in full PPE. Hell, if our heads came up above the wall we got whacked with an axe handle on the helmet (which I thought was quite ironic because we would have to run if we dropped our helmets). I guess and axe handle is more gentle than concrete to a helmet though, they didn't hit us that hard anyway, it wouuld startle you more than anything.

    I guess these days that could be construed as hazing, and that's what sucks about this PC world we live in now. It has really degraded discipline in the military the way we have to be so careful about how we talk to or discipline our junior members. But anyway, enough about my issues with PC crap, haha.

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    depending on your response area and your average type of calls, would the helmet be more efficient than a metro due to its weight? Fighting a 10 hour brush fire in a metro isn't ideal, but add the weight of the Traditional and you've just added more stress to your neck.
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 6Duron1 View Post
    depending on your response area and your average type of calls, would the helmet be more efficient than a metro due to its weight? Fighting a 10 hour brush fire in a metro isn't ideal, but add the weight of the Traditional and you've just added more stress to your neck.
    Oh man, I didn't even think of that. Yeah, it took a while for my neck muscles to get used to that.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Haughton, LA
    Posts
    214

    Default

    Well, no ****. What have we got here, a comedian?
    Unit 71 - Probationary Firefighter / First Responder
    Bossier Parish Fire District #1

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Uhhhh, is that towards me? No sarcasm meant, seriously I didn't think of that issue. It really did take my neck muscles a while to get used to the extra weight. But whatever man.

  25. #25
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Nevermind, I see the issue, you're that little ****er that's all stuck up LAFire's ***. Sorry I agreed with you you little ****. Have fun down there in Bum - **** Parish, LA.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. What traditional style helmet would you recommend?
    By Capt.explorer12 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 01-31-2011, 11:38 AM
  2. U.K traditional helmet departing
    By len1582 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-15-2010, 07:21 PM
  3. Traditional Helmet?
    By rmhinkle in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-11-2006, 11:19 AM
  4. Chieftan 1910 traditional helmet
    By FyredUp in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-20-2004, 12:16 PM
  5. Traditional Style Helmet vs "TurtleShell"
    By LCFD77 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-12-2003, 01:41 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register