NFPA rule for MVA

[volfireman034]

Does anyone know which NFPA rule requires a fire apparatus at all MVA's? ALso does the NFPA rule mention which type of appatarus as in does it have to be a class A engine or can a brush truck do?

[MemphisE34a]

None.

Which means you lose.

[volfireman034]

What do i loose?

[snowball]

What do i loose?

The spelling test.

[GTRider245]

The spelling test.

[FIRE117]

While this may not be a NFPA rule, I remember in an auto extrication class I attended, that a fully charged 1 1/2 inch hoseline must be present during extrication operations?

If an extrication course is teaching that a 1 1/2" inch hoseline be present during extrication operations, then there may be some other type of guideline out there?

If you are trying to justify having a pumper at an extrication operation, you may want to consult with auto extrication instructors and see where this practice is recommended or required.

In both departments that I run with, I highly recommend responding with a pumper for vehicle accidents. About forty years ago, in the next county, a motor vehicle accident occured. A woman was trapped in the vehicle. The vehicle caught fire and her cousin could not get her out before help arrived. She burned to death since she was trapped in the wreck.

Therefore, I subscribe to the practice of having a pumper responding to motor vehicle accidents, until we are sure no one is trapped. I do not believe a fire extinguisher or one inch booster line is sufficient for vehicle fires, so the pumper is needed to furnish, pump and supply adequate water for a 1 1/2" size hoseline IMHO.

[FireMedic049]

While this may not be a NFPA rule, I remember in an auto extrication class I attended, that a fully charged 1 1/2 inch hoseline must be present during extrication operations?

If an extrication course is teaching that a 1 1/2" inch hoseline be present during extrication operations, then there may be some other type of guideline out there?

Right, because fire instructors always teach strictly from the text books and rule books and have never injected personal opinions and experiences into their teachings.

[volfireman034]

Ok yes my spelling isn't the greatest it's my weak point. Now back to my questions.
The issue we have in my county is that when the county has a MVA the county dispatch only pages out first repsonders not the whole fire departments. Which means historically only the member of the volunteer fire department that are also first responder would go to the MVA in there POV's or sometimes a burshtruck. The extracation aspect is handled by one of two county extracation rescue units that respond to all other fire districts MVA. ( that is a whole differant issue lol) So my question is in a effort to change the county dispatch proceedure to call out the fire department so that a engine and be at the scene.

[Rescue601]

Ok yes my spelling isn't the greatest it's my weak point. Now back to my questions.
The issue we have in my county is that when the county has a MVA the county dispatch only pages out first repsonders not the whole fire departments. Which means historically only the member of the volunteer fire department that are also first responder would go to the MVA in there POV's or sometimes a burshtruck. The extracation aspect is handled by one of two county extracation rescue units that respond to all other fire districts MVA. ( that is a whole differant issue lol) So my question is in a effort to change the county dispatch proceedure to call out the fire department so that a engine and be at the scene.

Is the issue that you aren't a first responder, but want a reason to go to the call too?

[volfireman034]

LOL far from it. I'm the fire chief of one of the departments and I'm tired of argueing with dispatch over who to dispatch on a MVA. Plus I'm not part of a comittee to write there new SOG's so I would like to reference to a rule or law to help prove my point and the point of most of the fire cheifs in the county.

[PaladinKnight]

Does your department not have authority over what it does? You better look at Arkansas Statutes.


After a bunch of push/pull years ago, a county sheriff tried to decide when a fire truck would respond to any call. He put out a memo that dictated that no fire department would self-dispatch on any call until he or his office gave consent.

After about 6 months of this nonsense, the State Attorney General issued an opinion that stated in a nut shell:

Local, County or State Law enforcment does not have jurisdiction to control or mandate when any fire department responds. The Fire Chief, or commanding officer of any fire department has the authority to deploy fire resources, what type of units will be used, and duration of deployment. This applies to any fire or life threat emergency.

In other words.... the fire department gets to decide who, when and where... and what.

Too many times local county emergency managers try to control what everyones does. Unless this your boss, his subordinates and 911 do not decide what you do. If your funding comes from county tax dollars, then your county DA needs to define the pecking order. But if your dollars come from your community, and you have an independant board of trustees or directors, then I would tell them to pound sand.

Matter of fact. in most states, Fire Departments are compelled to respond when receiving knowledge of a fire or life threat emergency in their jurisdiction. Failure to respond may expose them to civil and/or criminal liability.

So Chief 034... since you are the Fire Chief, you better educate yourself concerning the laws in your state. That is your responsibility. Posing the question here is not going to solve it. If the other fire chiefs are so weak that they let someone else dictate what they do... then God help your county.


Start with contacting these folks:

Rural Fire Protection Service of the Arkansas Forestry Commission

The Arkansas State Fire Prevention Commission

[Catch22]

While what you are talking about may not be addressed in NFPA, you also have to look at what the industry standard is. In most locations I'm familiar with, an MVA gets a fire unit and EMS.

The fire unit needs to be capable of handling a fire with the incident, which means the capability to flow an 1 1/2" line with 500 gallons of water on board (at least that's what I teach and use as a rule of thumb, as do many departments around here) unless there's an obvious reason why it's not needed. You'd also like to have some kind of rescue capability if you don't know ahead of time if rescue's needed.

Size also matters when it comes to traffic control. Would you like a tractor-trailer hitting your brush truck, and ambulance, a patrol car, or an engine? You also have to take into consideration scene safety. If there are any flammables on the ground, is it safe for anyone that's not in bunker gear to be in hot zone without the capabilities to extinguish?

Just some things to think about.

[FWDbuff]

LOL far from it. I'm the fire chief of one of the departments and I'm tired of argueing with dispatch over who to dispatch on a MVA. Plus I'm not part of a comittee to write there new SOG's so I would like to reference to a rule or law to help prove my point and the point of most of the fire cheifs in the county.

Wait....do you want to roll on every MVA or just MVA's with extrication??

Good lord, if we rolled on every MVA that EMS goes to, we would be running 10,000 runs per year instead of 1,000

[BULL321]

First thing first the NFPA does not make rules or laws only recommendations! Your best bet is to check your states General Statutes, to see who your State says is in charge.

In N.C. the Fire Chief or his designee is in charge of all fires, mvas or any other type of emergency that takes place in his district. Not Dispatch not the Police or Sheriff's office, not the County Fire Marshal!

[BULL321]

Wait....do you want to roll on every MVA or just MVA's with extrication??

Good lord, if we rolled on every MVA that EMS goes to, we would be running 10,000 runs per year instead of 1,000

We only run mva that have one or all of the following: PI, fluids leaking, road block and of course the vehicle is on fire.

[slackjawedyokel]

If you arent a member of this "comittee" - standing on the outside jumping up and down hollering NFPA wont accomplish much. Arkansas has very vague laws on vehicle extrication. There are several conflicting laws. When you say you "argue" with dispatch ---is this in the form of documented communication ? If not it should be.
But in my opinion rather than trying to force your dept. on to the scene, why not train everbody as first responders and equip your engine with basic EMS and extrication equipment? Why try and force the issue just so you can stand there with a hose in your hand when in all reality a large % of extractions are just a door pop? And you can make a difference.

[EGregory]

In our county we run a class A pumper to all MVA w/ injury. This is written in our SOGs and from what I'm told it was written in several years ago after another department in our county responded to an accident with injury in a crash (extrication) truck (No pump/water/hose) and found a fully involved vehicle with entrapment and could do nothing but watch the patient burn.

Sometimes dispatch will page it and ask for first responders, our instructions are to ignore the kind of unit requested and make our decision based on the nature of the call. It is not uncommon to hear things like "We need first repsonders en-route for a structure fire" so we just can't take it for granted that they're paging things out right and we make the call whether it's a call we're allowed to run and what apparatus to run based on the information given with the page.

[JohnVBFD]

Maybe this is my warped thinking, but wouldn't sitting down with all agencies dispatched, the dispatchers, and most importantly the governing body of the region accomplish more than posting on an internet message board with maybe only 0.05% even remotely aware of what part of the world you are in. Oh, and that the other 99.05% have absolutely no knowledge of the laws/SOP/SOG/Handshake agreements you have?

Just saying. I have a problem with my neighbor, I don't ask Joe Schmukatelli in Kentucky for guidance.

[snowball]

You want to justify being put on those calls? Fine, here is your reason. Anytime a modern era vehicles body structure is compromised, there is always a chance of either a hazardous materials release, an unintended air bag deployment, or the possibility of fire. There are also traffic concerns that need to be addressed.
Now unless EMS is proficient in identifying wether a vehicles safety system has been compromised, you should be put on the card.
Safety is the biggest reason.

[dfwfirefighter]

This topic doesn't appear to be anything that NFPA would have desire or "jurisdiction" over regarding their input. The NFPA makes "recommendations" that are NOT laws, required practices, and/or etc. Most of the NFPA committees are industry "experts" who a very familiar with a very small niche in their field of expertise. Oftentimes, these folks are not (and never have been) firefighters so their input is focused on their products and not necessarily how practical it is to emergency responders.

Their rules are, however, considered a "standard of care" that folks are often measured against. That being said, how your particular department responds to an MVC is not too high on their priority list. They do, however, likely have a recommendation regarding every tool you carry and use, the PPE you are wearing, the level of training everyone has who responded to that particular incident, and etc.

"How" your department responds, i.e. who, what, where, and how many, is likely a regional issue at best.

Good luck.