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  1. #1
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Post Confined Space Air Hose

    Been banging my head on the bureaucracy wall with this one.

    Everyone can quote that a Type C Supplied Air Respirator can have up to 300' of airhose attached to the rescuer. Most SAR carts have multiple air outlets. My question; "Is the 300' air hose length a cumulative total (150' for 2 rescuers) or can each rescuer have 300' each?" I have been told different things from manufactures, SCBA maintenance trainers and confined space rescue trainers. Have called NIOSH and Texas Department of Insurance which runs our Workplace Safety, both had no help.

    The NIOSH standard that deals with this is 42 CFR, part 84, subpart J. Not that it helps.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist


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    Try this, hope it helps.

    POA - Point of Attachment: A Pressure Gage, regulator, relief valve, and congruous fitting are necessary to be considered a POA.
    Reference: 42CFR Part 84 Subpart J .149.
    Download a complete copy at www.cdc.gov/niosh/pt84abs2.html

    Regulator allows adjustment of air pressure to manufacturer’s specified pressure range based on range of hose length used (see 84.149 (b)).

    Pressure gauge allows verification of this pressure setting at the point of attachment (see 84.149 (b)).

    Pressure relief valve prevents pressure from exceeding 125 psi (see 84149 (d) (1)).

    Congruous fitting allows connection of “Detachable couplings” as part of NIOSH approved respirator system (see 84.131 (5)).

    The maximum length of hose allowed from the “Point of Attachment” to the worker is 300 ft. (91m) for type C Supplied Air Respirators. This hose must be provided in multiples of 25 ft. (7.6m).
    Reference: 42CFR Part 84 Subpart J.149 - Table 8, Air Supply-Line Requirements and Tests

  3. #3
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Truck, thanks. I have read and broken down the CFR. It doesn't clarify if the 300' max hose length is for both people or has to be divided when more than one is one the same SAR cart. But thanks for adding to the conversation, seriously I am glad that anyone is interested.

    So after a week since emailing NIOSH I had a NIOSH rep (Jay) call me about an hour ago. He states that it is 300' per rescuer. I asked why, he said; "Honestly, the people that wrote this are probably dead." He thinks it has more to do with over 300' becomming an entaglement issue, and having nothing to do with air supply. He stated that the you can put as many people on the SAR system at 300' that the system can provide the right ammount of CFM (4-6 CFM) and air pressure (MSA runs 85-90 psi for the PremAire system) to.

    So, I am right now setting up a test. Going to run one line with the escape pack on the PosiCheck system while I wear the other pack. Going to run the complete airpack test three times with 150', 300' and 450' on both lines and see what the results are. Stay tuned, I should have this wrapped up by this evening.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  4. #4
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    So I ran the SCBA Quick Tests on the SAR cart with two 150' lines, two 300' lines and two 400' lines using the PosiCheck machine for one facepiece and me breahting on the second facepiece.

    The 150' and 300' passed. The 400' test failed. I am not sure why the failure, the 1st stage pressure remained between 81 to 85 psi. The breathing machine said that the facepiece pressure dropped to -0.9 in. H2O on inhalation. That said, while very unscientific, I did not experience the facepiece sucking to my face at the same time.

    I will run the test again tommorow and figure out why. But just as the NIOSH guy said, 300' per line worked well and passed. I have the test data if anyone wants it.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Drew:
    If you don't mind posting the info, that would be great.
    Dave

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    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruckFF View Post
    Drew:
    If you don't mind posting the info, that would be great.
    Dave
    I'll do it tomorrow, working 8-5 till doc clears me from an OJI.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    We re-ran the tests today. Identified a facepiece issue that failed the 400' hose test.

    Ran tests with duel lines, one breathing on the PosiCheck system and the other on a real person. Ran them at Max Breathing Rates with the following setups;

    -Two 50' lines
    -Two 150' lines
    -Two 300' lines
    -Two 350' lines
    -One 700' line

    All tests passed.

    TruckFF wanted the info on the tests. Here it is.

    Flowed using MSA PortAire SAR cart, PremAire Cadet Escape packs, Facepieces are UltraElite MMR Push to Connect.

    -Two 50' lines
    Breathing Test Results Minimum Maximum
    Facepiece Pressure 0.3 in H2O 2.2 in H2O
    1st Stage Pressure 66.4 in H2O 80.3 in H2O

    -Two 150' lines
    Breathing Test Results Minimum Maximum
    Facepiece Pressure 0.3 in H2O 2.3 in H2O
    1st Stage Pressure 65.1 in H2O 74.4 in H2O

    -Two 300' lines
    Breathing Test Results Minimum Maximum
    Facepiece Pressure 0.2 in H2O 2.3 in H2O
    1st Stage Pressure 65.3 in H2O 71.9 in H2O

    -Two 350' lines
    Breathing Test Results Minimum Maximum
    Facepiece Pressure 0.2 in H2O 2.2 in H2O
    1st Stage Pressure 63.1 in H2O 71.8 in H2O

    -One 700' line
    Breathing Test Results Minimum Maximum
    Facepiece Pressure 0.2 in H2O 2.2 in H2O
    1st Stage Pressure 67.9 in H2O 72.3 in H2O
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Thanks... looks like your tests are similar to what we found many years back, namely that the system will work at distances longer than 300'. BUT, even though it works we were always asking ourselves, why would we ever want to go that far, especially when there is NO WAY that little escape bottle is going to supply enough air to get back out.
    I was told by a member of a very large, east coast department that they wouldn't use the Supplied Air Breathing Apparatus (SABA) with the small 10 minute escape cylinder unless they could remain in sight of the opening to the CS. If they had to go deeper than that, they used what I've always called a combination SCBA; a standard SCBA but with the ability to connect an airline to it as well (MSA called it a dual-purpose SCBA). They felt that having what amounted to a 30 minute escape cylinder was worth the extra size, etc. Not sure how they handled small openings, pipes and obstructions but that's a different posting.
    Anyway, thanks for the info.. good stuff for everyone to know.

    Dave

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