1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4

    Default Tanker Dump Options

    Ok guys, we're in the process of specing a 3000 gallon tanker. We currently have a 2000 gallon tanker with 3 newton dumps.

    We are in the process of a debate between the 3 newton dumps vs a rear swivel dump.

    Looking for personal experiences and opinions.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    We have three different dumps.

    I don't think there are really many pros/cons. It is probably more of a budget issue.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    1,158

    Default

    We too just spec'd a tanker, but ours is an engine/tanker. Ours will function as both, depending on crew and what kind of fire it is. We spec'd 3 Newton dumps because they will not get in the way if we have to lay LDH. The thing you need to ask yourselves is how are you going to use the truck? If it's stricktly a water hauler, what's the easiest method for unloading? How much manpower do you need vs how much will you have? Is price a consideration? And can the swivel be operated from the cab by the driver? You probably are the best one to answer your own question.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    The swivel dump is a means to save money, but I would prefer three separate dumps if it were up to me... The swivel makes the chute lower than it would be otherwise when using conventional dumps, which could cause issues with clearance over dump tank sides. The swivel is also at the rear of the rig, where it will pick up road grit and so forth. Having sold rigs with both, unless you need to do the swivel to cut costs, I'd do three dumps.

    Never timed one, but I would think the extra bend with the swivel and the 90's would slow down dump times as well.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,031

    Default

    I would further ask will the dump be manually operated by those outside the cab, or power operated by the driver from inside the cab?

    Our tanker pumper/tender engine has 3 dumps, one on each side behind the cab, and one at the rear. They are all manually operated but if we were designing this rig today I would have the side dumps be power opeated fom the cab. We tend to do the majority of our drop tank ops as drive along the side of the drop tank dumping. A power operated dump that the driver could operate without ever leaving the cab, or having to place a firefighter in between the tender and the drop tank, would be safer and far more efficient.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  6. #6
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    If money is not an object, then remote power operated dumps is what I would also want. We have them on both sides and rear.

    Operator doesn't get out of the cab, during most evolutions. As Fyred points out, if you are side dumping, then you aren't backing and it is much much safer.

    http://www.njfirepictures.com/NEW-JE...3819&k=XfDMKNs

    The only thing I would add to this apparatus is a rear camera.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    482

    Default

    I would echo the in cab controls for individual dumps. You can reduce the necessary manpower by one. By having the driver able to dump reduces the cycle time because he pulls up, extends the chute, and dumps. Otherwise, the ground man (unnecessary with the 3 dumps) has to extend / position the dump and operate the valve. This generally means that they will be between a 50,000 pound truck and portable pond. For the extra money, you are saving time and greatly reducing risk, especially if you tend to have slippery roads and night time operations. But even if you get a swivel, it is always better/safer/faster to drive beside than back up.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Swivel dumps are certainly a money saver. All dumps are higher than a portable tank which is usually no higher than 30". The length and width may change based on capacity but the height stays the same. Swivel dumps can have electric valves as the valve is on the main valve and not on the swivel. Moving the swivel to the needed side is easy, but maybe not as convienent as an electric side dump. If money wasn't an issue, two electric remote valves (L/R) would be my frst choice, with an additional electric valve at the rear next. If cost was an issue, the manual swivel works just fine. We have both on tankers and we use them all without any problems from either. Every portable tank operation I've been at has people around the tanks doing various things so operating a manual dump valve isn't an issue. Put a water level gauge on the rear of the truck near the direct tank fill and add 12v scene lights over the side valves. We have found those things really help the operators during a shuttle. Have a safe day out there.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Our tanker now has 3 newtons that are controlled from both the rear and the cab. Every dealer we've spoken to says the rear swivel can dump electrically but there is no electonic devices to move it aroud, it has to be done manually, which is not a problem as we always have someone at the drop tank.

    I'm looking for some information mostly with dumping times on the swivel. Dealers are telling me it's slower, but I can't seem to get any good info on how much slower.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    IL, USA
    Posts
    242

    Default

    We have a swivel dump. One unexpected advantage we've found is that it allows you to be a little "sloppier" when backing up to rear dump, since if you're not aligned exactly square with the tank you can swivel the chute to compensate. Ours is a manual dump so someone has to be back there to dump it anyway.

    I don't see any reason why a swivel would dump slower than any other type except for the initial dump where you set the chute into position (left, right, or rear). After that, you shouldn't need to move it unless you're switching between side and rear dumping every time, which would be a little unusual.

    The one thing I don't like about ours is that the extensions out the side aren't very long, but I'm sure we could fabricate something to add on if we wanted to.

    Andy

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    136

    Default

    We just ordered a new tanker and are putting 4 dumps on it, controlled from the cab. 2 on each side. Our neighbor department has this and the dump time is fantastic. No rear dump, don't like seeing tankers backing during emergency situations.

  12. #12
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,311

    Default

    Chief1120, can you provide a photo or link showing the dual dumps that you've described?
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    55

    Lightbulb another thought

    Pumper/tenders have a pump and if you have a large enough pump and a large enough tank to pump you could pump through a short piece of 5 inch with a difuser to avoid the cost of three + power dumps.

    I have trained crews on both the swivel & standard dumps in my area. I do like the no backing up idea, the problem is NFPA still requires 270 degree dump capability.

    Great discussion and i have printed it off for my next water movement class.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    MEPOFIRE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Our 2010 Peterbuilt 2500 gal pumper/tender has 3 dumps with air operated valves and air operated extension chutes that are controlled from in the cab or the rear of the truck. Pretty slick setup. I would say to get a tank level gauge on the rear by the tank fill, that's one thing we did not do on this truck that we should have and will have retrofitted in the future. We also have a power fold rack for A 3000 gal portable tank on this rig making it easier to handle a large drop tank like that.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I would further ask will the dump be manually operated by those outside the cab, or power operated by the driver from inside the cab?

    Our tanker pumper/tender engine has 3 dumps, one on each side behind the cab, and one at the rear. They are all manually operated but if we were designing this rig today I would have the side dumps be power opeated fom the cab. We tend to do the majority of our drop tank ops as drive along the side of the drop tank dumping. A power operated dump that the driver could operate without ever leaving the cab, or having to place a firefighter in between the tender and the drop tank, would be safer and far more efficient.
    Yup, "Drive by" shooting from the cab is the way to go.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,954

    Default

    We just purchased a tanker (thank you FEMA) and speced a swing dump on it. We put a lot of thought into it, and made the choice on these thoughts.

    1. Backing if you have to, you don't have to align as carefully.

    2. Cost

    We have a water control person when we deploy portable ponds, and that person can swing the chute in either direction just as quickly as using a side dump.

    3. 1 chute requires less maintenance than three - although maintenance is almost minimal.

    We also decided to go with manual chutes. Maintenance was a BIG issue, as was the fact it would not save us any time with the water control person sitting there.

    MEPOFIRE made a good point about the rear tank gauge. I had them take the small panel indicator that normally goes on the pump panel on the rear, then put two large indicators on each side of the truck, just back from the rear of the cab.

    We also used a manual tank holder, maintenance being the biggest concern. Everything I do I try to plan for future, and we are a very rural and underfunded department.

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by getasupply View Post
    Pumper/tenders have a pump and if you have a large enough pump and a large enough tank to pump you could pump through a short piece of 5 inch with a difuser to avoid the cost of three + power dumps.

    I have trained crews on both the swivel & standard dumps in my area. I do like the no backing up idea, the problem is NFPA still requires 270 degree dump capability.

    Great discussion and i have printed it off for my next water movement class.
    I understand the NFPA requirement, but that standard needs to be really looked at.

    They still want you to carry a 2-1/2 gal. water can on a tanker, Don't you have enough water within the tank

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    MEPOFIRE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chief1120 View Post
    I understand the NFPA requirement, but that standard needs to be really looked at.

    They still want you to carry a 2-1/2 gal. water can on a tanker, Don't you have enough water within the tank
    comes in handy for priming portable pumps when the tank is empty. Not sure if a portable pump is in the spec or not.

  19. #19
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MEPOFIRE View Post
    comes in handy for priming portable pumps when the tank is empty. Not sure if a portable pump is in the spec or not.
    So does a bucket.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,954

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So does a bucket.
    I have never been able to prime a pump with a bucket.

    Name:  bucket.jpg
Views: 802
Size:  7.8 KB

  21. #21
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    I have never been able to prime a pump with a bucket.
    Have you ever primed one with a pwc?

    I've used a helmet to prime a wildland pump... kind of like a bucket.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    55

    Default great stuff

    Well this has been a great thread with some great ideas; speaking of looking at the NFPA section.
    I have no influence there waht so ever but if I did:

    A. right and left remote dumps for drive bys
    or
    B. Swivel only

    Reason no more bagpipes for people backed over. This discussion brought me to this thought, many years ago north of here a father vollie backed over his own son at drill. One night I was finishing up a class for another agency and they got a call, a member was knocked down (NLTI) by an open comparment door. A few years ago drive through stations were the in thing for a reason.

    Help me down off the soap box

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    LVFD301's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,954

    Default

    WATER! I got it now - a bucket of water!

    I was so confused.....

  24. #24
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    WATER! I got it now - a bucket of water!

    I was so confused.....
    A young guy like you already confused... no hope for any of us!

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    We had issues with our last tanker with a swivel dump, so our newest one has 3 manual dumps on it. So far it has worked out great for us.

    FM1
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Tanker Dump valves
    By Banks6610 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-07-2012, 09:33 AM
  2. New tanker chassis options
    By neiowa in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-13-2011, 10:18 AM
  3. Pressure dump tanker
    By neiowa in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-14-2006, 11:43 AM
  4. Tanker dump valve
    By sklump in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-23-2005, 04:48 PM
  5. tanker dump size?
    By jdboy88 in forum Emergency Vehicle Operations
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-11-2003, 11:28 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register