Wish we had a deck gun.
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Wish we had a deck gun.
i dont agree that this was a "good job". confusion seemed to be happening on the 1st dues part.
the brakes are set at :35, first water at 2:33....the deck gun was not a terrible choice in my opinion though.
it all should have been a faster operation, now what we didn't see or hear may have been important. (was anyone reported as trapped, sop's that dictate need for hydrant supply to use 2.5" or greater???, ect...)
given a 4 man crew i'd order 1 man to the hydrant, 1 man (assisted by the MPO initially) to get 50-100' of 2.5" pushing 325gpm being employed for an exterior knock down off the tankwater(1 man should pin it down to the ground), i'd complete the 360 survey. then discontinue the exterior line and have him with the hydrant man take a 1.75" in. (what i do as command is montior the need for the 2.5" on the outside)
sounds confusing but it must be trained for. make the building and the fire behave, train to take these situations on. this is very simular to attached garage fires that we have had where the fire needs to behave and made to be controlled. we do not have lots of man power and the 2nd to 4th due are usally 5 to 10 mins out from when we arrive.
Looked like a long delay getting the line charged, maybe that's why the deck gun was opened....as an after thought out of frustration. The "nozzle-man" didn't seen too enthused. Just took it and walked away. NOTE..if you're going to use a line, take a few folds and flake it out. Looked like pulling more hose went on and on. Even if you don't have pre-connects, like my department, you have 500 gallons of water that can be used with a handline. Pull a few lengths, flake it out, hook it up, drop the tank. There was plenty of manpower to do that. Even an 1 3/4" as was mentioned flowing 175-200gpm would have been better than doing nothing. And can be positioned where needed. It's not always how much water you throw, it's where and how you apply it.
IMO not a bad call at all in using the deck gun given the volume of fire and the delay in getting the 2 1/2" into service.
If you noticed, the 2 1/2" was not preconnected as it was being pulled from a dry load. Part of the delay was getting it broken and then connected to the discharge. The other delay was caused the firefighter originally pulling the load from the bed. After about 100', he simply stopped pulling the load and walked away to don an SCBA, and the other three members near the nozzle stood there for several seconds until one of them came back to the truck to finish pulling hose. In addition instead of actually pulling off several folds at a time, they were simply pulling it off hand over hand.
The other issue is the issue my VFD is trying to overcome. For the past couple of weeks we have been working on a deck gun attack initially, and then transitioning to a handline. the issue they seem to have is they still don't understand that in order to be effective, the handline must be ready to go into service as soon as the deck gun attacked is ended. In this video, there was close to a minute between the time that the deck gun was shut down and the handline was put into service. IMO, that is simply too long.
After looking again, it is hard to tell, but there was a tremendous increase in steam when the fire was hit. I cant imagine there wasnt a place for that steam to enter into the interior, therefore I would assume that there was more steam on the inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefKN
I dont say this as a bad thing, but an inevitability from the amount of heat and the amount of water. The fire needed to be hit with a large caliber straight stream. I think the 2.5 would have been better, but the deck gun worked. Gotta agree with the others who commented on the time it took to get it firing though. Looks like the holdup was a wait to hook to the hydrant. We would have hit it on tank water waiting for the hydrant.
even with my precon of 250', i would have broken it. it wouldn't take that long. one minute tops to charge it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
scba? if your knocking it down from the ground who cares about the pack on your back. (all the while knowing that it likely in the back of the seat, that guy may have been a pov responder though). i have been to quite a few works where three people kneel down and put there masks on (haven't even made the call for water) and let the fire go unrestrained. it could have been that the door man stepped off to the side called for water, hit the fire, all the while the other 2 are masked and then are ready to be on air to make the push.
This one doesnt have to be hard. One guy pulls off 50ft of 2.5 and knocks down the fire. Another guys pulls the 1.75 and prepares to enter once the fire is knocked down. The DPO runs the pump. Another guy hooks to the hydrant and joins up with the 1.75 guy to make entry. All should have on SCBA except the DPO.
this is a tough thing for people to do after many years of not doing it. the key is not wasting water. common factors that make it fail:Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
-there is a small window of opertunity for it to work, recognize that
-the deck gun is located in a poor spot, 11 feet in the air on the pumper, not usable for 1st floor stripmalls pstorefront window attacks to hit deep into the structure.
-the fire is made to behave where the gpm overwhelm the btu production... it has to hit and cool the off-gassing objects
-bring the pump and the discharge up to pressure prior to opening the monitor, some engines are outfitted with a ball valve at the deck gun for maximum controll and allows the mpo to attend to other things once the pump is set
-the gpm is big for a short time so 500 gpm over 20 seconds is only 200-225 gpm
-the attack lines need to be ready to go as the master stream is shut off to get the remaining pockets of fire
I am with several of the other posters on here. Yes the deck gun worked and knocked the fire down. If it was my fire I would have used the 2 1/2 knocked down the fire and pushed inside to allow the truck company to get in to search. That fire would have be easily knocked down with a 2 1/2 flowing 325GPM place directly at the base of the steps. One thing i am willing to bet is that whilie this fire looks impressive it was not deeply seated in the structure. If you look at the video there is little smoke coming out from the 2nd floor windows or eves of the attic. Add to the fact that you can see the vinyl siding melted on the 2nd floor it is resonalbe to conclude that a majority of the fire that you see is the vinyl siding and sofits burning on the front, with extension into the overhang. This siding material is going to burn intense and produrce a large amount of flame rapidly due to the plastic. Whilie you might have a room or two off on the first floor it will not be that large of a deal.
I would not have pulled an 1 3/4 to take inside and engine company worth its salt should be able to advance a 2 1/2 with little problems into a structure. IMO the hose streatch left alot to be desired. It took to long and poor choice in running the line. Flake the line so that it easier advance once it is charged. not in the street far away from the door.
Hey RFD. Good to hear from ya. Havent in seen ya on here in awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by RFD21C
Why would you pull the 2.5 inside and not a 1.75 when you just said (I agree) that there wasnt that much fire? You guys with the staffing might find it easy, but 2 guys pulling that to the second floor is not easy.
spencer, i agree. plus i want something to protect the outside incase it may light off again. it is depinately a 2 line fire. one to protect outside and egress and one to stop it inside.my manning is a total of 17 ff's and 3 man medic crew. but it takes 10-15 mins total to achieve from when get on scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer534
I agree. I think that it wasn't a major factor here, as it appears that it was more of an exterior fire. However, I'd be real hesitant to let loose the deck gun. The interior of the structure could see some rapid change in conditions. We need to consider the viability of those inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer534
In this case, I don't think the interior was all that involved. So it probably didn't make much difference.
I also agree that a 1 3/4 would have been effective. Probably more so then the deck gun, as others have posted, the application can sometimes be more important than the volume.
In my experience, actually "pushing" the fire with the water stream occurs when you improperly apply the water to the fire and/or you apply too little water to it. When the "GPMs are greater than the BTUs" and applied properly, the fire doesn't move, it goes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by FFEMT3633
If this is Beaver Dam Wisconsin, they are a combination department. Actually not to far from where I live. If I get a chance I will talk to one of their guys about this fire and see what he has to say about their tactics.
Sometimes you just have to chuckle at the armchair quarterbacking that goes on here. They knocked the fire down with the deck gun, moved in with the 2 1/2 and continued fire attack. Perhaps not the same way you would have done it or with the same equipment, but they did get it done.
As for whoever said pull 50 feet of 2 1/2 break it, connect it to the discharge and hit the fire...then what? You certainly don't have enough hose to go anywhere after that.
My #1 POC FD carries an Elkhart RAM on one engine and a Stinger preconnected to 200 feet of 3 inch on the other. But then again we are non-traditional with our handlines too. 160 to 300 gpm with 2 inch lines. We may have deck gunned this initially, or pulled the preconnected master stream, or perhaps 2 or more 2 inch lines.
That was me on the 50ft of 2.5. As you say, there are lots of different ways to do it and we would pull the 2.5, knock it down and proceed in with a 1.75. As I said in the same post, one guy on the 2.5 with two guys getting the 1.75 ready. We would not move the 2.5 inside unless I really missed something and there is a lot more fire interior that I cant tell.
My point was with 50 feet of hose you can't even get to the D side of the house. Perhaps 100 feet would have been enough, but even that would have left me leary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer534
I don't have a problem with the use of the deck gun in this case. Yes a 2.5" would have worked too but the deck gun backed up by a handline was effective.
My only complaint would be that it seemed to take a while to make the decision to put the deck gun into service. It looked like they started pulling the line then changed tactics and went with the gun. I don't know what size tank the Engine has so maybe they were waiting until the water supply was closer to being established.
Hindsight (and MMQB) being what it is I would have focused on getting the gun in service 1st, water supply and hand-line second. Of course, by committing to the deck gun you run a risk if those other tasks aren't completed quickly.
Ahhh, the joys of the firehouse forums. Lets honestly assess this:
1) There is a certain percentage of people on here that have never seen a fire that big
2) There is another percentage that, depending on the time of day, may not even get enough people to get the rig there
3) There is a percentage of drivers that may not even find the address
4) There are others that may get it there, but couldn't get into pump to save their life. Let alone enough interior firefighters to do anything
5) There is another percentage that may not even know what a deck gun is
6) Finally I would venture to guess there is even a few on here, that presented with that situation, would completely vapor lock and not do anything.
So with that being said, to the Beaver Dam FD, nice job on the knock. Keep true to your tactics and what has worked for you.
Personally, I find it a very sound tactic. Exterior fire-big enough water NOT to push it interior as suggested. Interior fire-that sucker is defensive all the way. Again big water with the reach to knock it down and even reach interior through the window to put a very good dent on it's progress. All the while, allowing your available man-power to stretch the hand lines needed to knock down the rest of the exterior and work their way interior.
My Brother, another excellent posting by you. Way to clear the chaff and get right to the wheat.Quote:
Originally Posted by SPFDRum
I concur on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyredUp