All about knots

[Rescue Dave 312]

Sorry to intrude slightly, but that is great information you have posted here FiremanLyman. Thank you

[MichaelXYZ]

With all the great knots at our disposal, how does one decide which one to use? The fig 8 family seems to cover most of the bases. The half hitch is a good tie off knot, the clove hitch seems to be good for a loaded anchor. Well, what say you?

[FiremanLyman]

With all the great knots at our disposal, how does one decide which one to use? The fig 8 family seems to cover most of the bases. The half hitch is a good tie off knot, the clove hitch seems to be good for a loaded anchor. Well, what say you?

Real basic rule. It needs to be easy to tie, easily identified by others and suits the need of the application.

Depending on where you go, a bowline for example is not recognized as a life safety knot. A bowline with a Yosemite safety might not be identifiyable to others. A figure 8 may require an overhand safety, or it might only require a 4 inch tail instead. Chimney hitch means two diffrent things depending on where in the country you are. Honestly it is very regional and department specific sometimes.

[MichaelXYZ]

Thanks, I get what your saying. I suppose one could take a personal preference approach to a certain point eh?

[MichaelXYZ]

I have come to really enjoy learning all the knots out there. (Yes, I need a life) Anyways, I recently came across a really nice knot, and since this is a knot thread I thought I would throw it out here.
For mechanical advantage (MA) knots, the trucker hitch comes to mind and it is a useful knot, but for added MA the versatackle is really useful. This knot is very handy for tying down bundles in a truck or whatever.

[MichaelXYZ]

Simple knots can be used for more complex task. With a alpine butterfly and a bowline, a Y function can be made. Post your knot tips
P.S. I do realize rope on rope is a bad idea. A carabiner would be called for.

[FiremanLyman]

Simple knots can be used for more complex task. With a alpine butterfly and a bowline, a Y function can be made. Post your knot tips
P.S. I do realize rope on rope is a bad idea. A carabiner would be called for.

Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?

[MichaelXYZ]

Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?

Well, gotta love the internet, learn so much, your knot is certainly better (mine looks purty though). Thanks for sharing, kinda like the double butterfly. Will be sure to practice that knot. Mucho Gracias.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSCuies4jo

[MichaelXYZ]

I think I got it Do you have any more cool tips in your bag of tricks? Thanks for sharing the knot.

[MichaelXYZ]

Thought I would share the smartphone knot apps I use. I will list the ones that I think worthy of mention.

Knots 3D: Lots of knots and is updated often. Very easy to follow.
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/knots...453571750?mt=8

Animated knots: Very good knot app.
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/anima...376302649?mt=8

Knot Guide: has a free version
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/knot-...399947682?mt=8

All the above apps are very good and should be useful in your job.

[MichaelXYZ]

Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?

What knot would you use for hoisting a box with no handles?

[FiremanLyman]

What knot would you use for hoisting a box with no handles?

The "Rookie, carry that box up here!" Knot.

Seriously don't know, what kind of box? How big and heavy? Would probably put it in a basket or sling.

[MichaelXYZ]

The "Rookie, carry that box up here!" Knot.

Seriously don't know, what kind of box? How big and heavy? Would probably put it in a basket or sling.

Hehe A.K.A the probie knot.
Well, I once saw this old timer firefighter rig up this heavy box onto a hoist, it was very impressive.

I tried my own contraption pictured below, infact I used the double fig 8 knot and tried to get some mechanical advantage using the loops. Mine not so nice looking though.

[MichaelXYZ]

The Prusik seems to be the gold standard with departments for friction devices. Well, I recently came across the Distel hitch which feels like it is more effective in friction on a line, Tandem is not even needed as does the prusik. The distel hitch seems like a viable substitution. Have any of you tried this, your thought?

[jdcalamia]

Tandem prusiks are used for several reasons, the main being redundancy in the system as well as splitting the load between the two to maintain the desired SSSF. I would imagine since the Diestel Hitch would be tied with the same 8mm accessory cord that prusiks are, that we would need to use two to achieve the same desired SSSF, if we're using them in a belay/progressive capture. IMO, using one let alone two of these hitches in place of a TTPB looks like it would really junk up the area of attachment to the anchor given that this involves two eights on a bights, not to mention in this particular configuration above, the carabiner would be tri-loaded. Not the best situation, especially in a belay. From what I've read this hitch is more of a favorite for climbing in the arborist arenas. Strength wise it looks like it would be roughly close to that of a prusik, although I haven't seen any published numbers/testing.

[MichaelXYZ]

Good points. From my research, the double fishermans, and fig8 on a bight have a efficiency loss of 20%, so in that respect, the singular use of either one would not degrade the system.

I had not considered the tri-loading of the carabiner, which is very good point. I am realizing, I have much to learn.

Thanks

[MichaelXYZ]

Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?

Okay, I think I found a use where my knot would be better. A rescue lanyard such as in this link example.
http://en.skylotec.com/equi/verb/all...20FLEX%20V%201

I changed the bowlines to Figure 8's, and my method is cheaper than the link I shown above. Image is below.

What do ya think? I value your opinion

[FiremanLyman]

Yeap, that would be one method. We have a simular "pigtail" setup on our SRT rigs, diffrent knots but all the same.

If this is to be used as a positioning device, insure your rope has a little elasticity to it (dynamic). Sucks to load a static rope with any fall factor. Dress up the knots and loops.

[MichaelXYZ]

Thanks, would you consider Kernmantle rope as static rope? What rope would be elastic?

Sorry if I ask too many questions.

[FiremanLyman]

Kernmantle is manufactured as both.

Again, no dig on you maybe on your training chief, but this is why I feel there is a logical progression of steps to become a technical rescuer. They would start with an NFPA 1006 ch. 5 JPR course which teaches you about components of a system; MBS, type, G ratings, SSF, etc... and how to operate them. We call this course General Rescuer in the system we teach.

Rope level I and II found in Chapter 6 would be next. This is because many other disciplines require at least a level I rope understanding, swiftwater II requires a level II.

There is a good training matrix found in a presentation from the ITRS (http://itrsonline.org/) by James McCullar(http://www.itrsonline.org/PapersFold..._ITRSPaper.pdf). McCullar talks about it in terms of the team (NFPA 1670), but while we train a team, the individuals meet 1006 JPR's. Confused yet?