Thread: All about knots

  1. #26
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    Simple knots can be used for more complex task. With a alpine butterfly and a bowline, a Y function can be made. Post your knot tips
    P.S. I do realize rope on rope is a bad idea. A carabiner would be called for.

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    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 04-02-2012 at 10:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Simple knots can be used for more complex task. With a alpine butterfly and a bowline, a Y function can be made. Post your knot tips
    P.S. I do realize rope on rope is a bad idea. A carabiner would be called for.
    Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?
    Well, gotta love the internet, learn so much, your knot is certainly better (mine looks purty though). Thanks for sharing, kinda like the double butterfly. Will be sure to practice that knot. Mucho Gracias.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQSCuies4jo
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 04-04-2012 at 07:05 AM.

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    I think I got it Do you have any more cool tips in your bag of tricks? Thanks for sharing the knot.

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    Thought I would share the smartphone knot apps I use. I will list the ones that I think worthy of mention.

    Knots 3D: Lots of knots and is updated often. Very easy to follow.
    http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/knots...453571750?mt=8

    Animated knots: Very good knot app.
    http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/anima...376302649?mt=8

    Knot Guide
    : has a free version
    http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/knot-...399947682?mt=8

    All the above apps are very good and should be useful in your job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?

    What knot would you use for hoisting a box with no handles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    What knot would you use for hoisting a box with no handles?
    The "Rookie, carry that box up here!" Knot.

    Seriously don't know, what kind of box? How big and heavy? Would probably put it in a basket or sling.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    The "Rookie, carry that box up here!" Knot.

    Seriously don't know, what kind of box? How big and heavy? Would probably put it in a basket or sling.
    Hehe A.K.A the probie knot.
    Well, I once saw this old timer firefighter rig up this heavy box onto a hoist, it was very impressive.

    I tried my own contraption pictured below, infact I used the double fig 8 knot and tried to get some mechanical advantage using the loops. Mine not so nice looking though.

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  9. #34
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    The Prusik seems to be the gold standard with departments for friction devices. Well, I recently came across the Distel hitch which feels like it is more effective in friction on a line, Tandem is not even needed as does the prusik. The distel hitch seems like a viable substitution. Have any of you tried this, your thought?

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    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 04-06-2012 at 08:47 AM.

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    Tandem prusiks are used for several reasons, the main being redundancy in the system as well as splitting the load between the two to maintain the desired SSSF. I would imagine since the Diestel Hitch would be tied with the same 8mm accessory cord that prusiks are, that we would need to use two to achieve the same desired SSSF, if we're using them in a belay/progressive capture. IMO, using one let alone two of these hitches in place of a TTPB looks like it would really junk up the area of attachment to the anchor given that this involves two eights on a bights, not to mention in this particular configuration above, the carabiner would be tri-loaded. Not the best situation, especially in a belay. From what I've read this hitch is more of a favorite for climbing in the arborist arenas. Strength wise it looks like it would be roughly close to that of a prusik, although I haven't seen any published numbers/testing.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
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    Broomall, PA

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    Good points. From my research, the double fishermans, and fig8 on a bight have a efficiency loss of 20%, so in that respect, the singular use of either one would not degrade the system.

    I had not considered the tri-loading of the carabiner, which is very good point. I am realizing, I have much to learn.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Fancy. Would a double loop figure 8 achieve the same thing and be more efficient?
    Okay, I think I found a use where my knot would be better. A rescue lanyard such as in this link example.
    http://en.skylotec.com/equi/verb/all...20FLEX%20V%201

    I changed the bowlines to Figure 8's, and my method is cheaper than the link I shown above. Image is below.

    What do ya think? I value your opinion

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    Yeap, that would be one method. We have a simular "pigtail" setup on our SRT rigs, diffrent knots but all the same.

    If this is to be used as a positioning device, insure your rope has a little elasticity to it (dynamic). Sucks to load a static rope with any fall factor. Dress up the knots and loops.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Thanks, would you consider Kernmantle rope as static rope? What rope would be elastic?

    Sorry if I ask too many questions.
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 04-15-2012 at 07:01 PM.

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    Kernmantle is manufactured as both.

    Again, no dig on you maybe on your training chief, but this is why I feel there is a logical progression of steps to become a technical rescuer. They would start with an NFPA 1006 ch. 5 JPR course which teaches you about components of a system; MBS, type, G ratings, SSF, etc... and how to operate them. We call this course General Rescuer in the system we teach.

    Rope level I and II found in Chapter 6 would be next. This is because many other disciplines require at least a level I rope understanding, swiftwater II requires a level II.

    There is a good training matrix found in a presentation from the ITRS (http://itrsonline.org/) by James McCullar(http://www.itrsonline.org/PapersFold..._ITRSPaper.pdf). McCullar talks about it in terms of the team (NFPA 1670), but while we train a team, the individuals meet 1006 JPR's. Confused yet?
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Okay, nuf said.

    Thanks

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    Something I would like to add, our training officer is a 30 year man and he is an expert at his field. Sure we might not have all the ideal training that one would expect, but our training officer chose us because he knew we would work our butts off to get knowledgeable in our craft. As a private industry, we do not have the luxury of the tax payers dollar to support our education, so we must support ourselves, rely on others experience and seek out knowledge in anyway we can...

    My training officer is the best, top notch, and I will defend that claim even if I have to alienate myself from this site.

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    Whoa. Don't go all defensive or let people (including me) get you torqued off over the internet.

    Do I believe that you and your team can run a safe evolution in Confined Space? Yes. I also feel that before a confined space class is taken, one should already have a firm understanding of the tools and equipment they are using. If the agency that taught the class did not have a basic class as a prerequisite, shame on them. A lot of the real basic questions that you ask would have been covered in prerequisite training.

    You didn't have the luxury of taking a general or rope class prior to ConSp. I understand and appreciate that. Go ahead and ask whatever you want, people here will gladly answer it. Your questions are branching further out from the training you have been given, and it highlights the point for having a training progression. Understand that many in the fire service have taken years to gather the training needed to operate a ConSp team. I count at least 280 hours (GR, Rope II, HAZMAT, ConSp, Machinery Rescue) of additional training per member above the fire and EMS training already taken to perform at a ConSp Tech level.

    When YOU become a training chief, remember the lack and desire of rope knowledge, think about how useful it would be to have that knowledge prior to a ConSp class, and establish a program to train YOUR people in a logical progression.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    I am sorry, I did get a bit carried away and lost my composure, I apologize, and I do appreciate your input, and find it helpful. Gee, talk about your run on sentences

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    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Thanks for the link Capt, I actually have the phone app for Animated knots by Grog, It is a pretty good app, and I recommend it.

    I just recently purchased a copy of the Ashley book of knots. With 4000 knots it is a good reference, but it is just pictures of the knots and does not explain how to tie them, but nice book to add to the library.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Okay, I think I found a use where my knot would be better. A rescue lanyard such as in this link example.
    http://en.skylotec.com/equi/verb/all...20FLEX%20V%201

    I changed the bowlines to Figure 8's, and my method is cheaper than the link I shown above. Image is below.

    What do ya think? I value your opinion

    Attachment 21980
    For the lanyard you show, I'd terminate the two outer arms at the carabiners with double overhand loops (fisherman knot loops?) rather than the figure-of-8 bight; you'll end up with a more compact and tidy unit.

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    I used to be DCFDRescue 2. Forum changover locked me out.

    www.rescue2training.com

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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue 2 Training View Post
    ...also known as the "gallows knot", probably because the multiple turn version of the knot was used in the wild west to hang outlaws from the gallows scaffolding...

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