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Thread: Austin Fire Exam, May 23rd 2012

  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter56 View Post

    It also reveals this was started by a minority candidate who was not hired in 2012 and sued.
    That's usually what I do when I don't get what I want. That, or work harder to exceed whatever standard I'm presented with. Either one of those is a reasonable reaction for an aspiring firefighter. I wonder if he/she acted alone or was coached in to suing by one of the minority unions.

    I also wonder if the candidates that lose their spot to one of these affirmative action hires can get back pay for all the money they wasted flying to Austin, renting cars, and staying in hotels. Not to mention the wages lost from not working those days.


    I just cannot fathom how someone could walk out of a testing process like that and claim it was biased or unfair in any way. I hope more is revealed regarding the circumstances of the individual that sued.

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    At least the good news in all this is that we're closer to disclosure of the SOI results, resuming the process, and finding out about the modifications. It's light at the end of the tunnel after six months since the SOI. Once they approve that consent decree next Thursday, it goes to a federal district court in town before a judge. Hopefully they just sign it. I mean they could feasibly drag it out further with changes, etc., not to mention Local has threatened to contest a consent decree as "interveners" when it goes before federal court. If that happens, sionara. But if that judge signs it expediently and Local just lets it go through, the dept is free to move forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Bourbonstreet View Post
    That's usually what I do when I don't get what I want. That, or work harder to exceed whatever standard I'm presented with. Either one of those is a reasonable reaction for an aspiring firefighter. I wonder if he/she acted alone or was coached in to suing by one of the minority unions.

    I just cannot fathom how someone could walk out of a testing process like that and claim it was biased or unfair .
    As a Hispanic applicant who did test in the 2012 process and missed the 120 cutoff by just under 100 spots, I cannot agree with you more. When I saw that I didn't make it, I went over my interview, my test and thought about what I could have improved on. I returned in 2013 because I felt I had improved because of different tests and interviews I had participated in and really liked my chances this year. I honestly cannot see how someone could be all grumpy and sue a department because they missed the cutoff. Like you said, quality traits of an aspiring civil servant!

    However, if I was one of the people who was discriminated against, that would definitely suck. Either way, there was no need for a temper tantrum because you didn't make it.

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    Technically, they're saying if you're a minority and you didn't do as well as other groups on the testing you were discriminated against. So I don't see how that sucks from a being-discriminated-against standpoint.

    But you definitely have a good attitude.

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    So now someone may place higher and get passed over?

    Need to do genealogy search of your background to see what your past is made of. May help

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    What I meant was if my score was lowered because of my heritage, that would suck. If my score was lower because I didn't do good enough on my interview, then honestly, I don't see it as being fair for someone else who did better to lose their spot because of one person's "lawsuit." However, I feel I did much better in 2013. I prepared a lot more and in more productive ways so hopefully im towards the top of that list because of my hard work.

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    No one's score was lowered because of their heritage.
    Last edited by Scooter56; 01-27-2014 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Bourbonstreet View Post
    I also wonder if the candidates that lose their spot to one of these affirmative action hires can get back pay for all the money they wasted flying to Austin, renting cars, and staying in hotels. Not to mention the wages lost from not working those days.
    This is why our ranks weren't disclosed from the SOI. There's no way of knowing now if you were bumped because of this lawsuit or if you just didn't perform as well as the rest.

    When this first came up, I was glad that the hiring practices were being investigated to ensure they were as fair as possible. I certainly don't want to work for a department discriminating against any minorities. But now that the details of the suit have been released, I'm not happy. If someone can't even pass a very simple basic skills and aptitude test, they have no right moving forward. The things on that test are things you need as a knowledge foundation to build on in the academy. I simply cannot believe that it was found to be discriminatory, unless the test questions were the issue and not the pass/fail aspect of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliciaaaaah View Post
    This is why our ranks weren't disclosed from the SOI. There's no way of knowing now if you were bumped because of this lawsuit or if you just didn't perform as well as the rest.

    When this first came up, I was glad that the hiring practices were being investigated to ensure they were as fair as possible. I certainly don't want to work for a department discriminating against any minorities. But now that the details of the suit have been released, I'm not happy. If someone can't even pass a very simple basic skills and aptitude test, they have no right moving forward. The things on that test are things you need as a knowledge foundation to build on in the academy. I simply cannot believe that it was found to be discriminatory, unless the test questions were the issue and not the pass/fail aspect of it.
    I'm pretty sure it's the relavancy of the entire process, and the subsequent disparate impact (not enough Hispanics/blacks hired as whites) that is the issue, not individual questions or an overt intent to not hire minorities. Basically, even if the testing is unbiased, if it creates a disparate impact, the process is deemed unjust in the eyes of the DOJ. Similar cases in the past have been found in the wrong/right because they could or could not show that the testing/hiring process was indicative of hiring qualified workers This is where quota systems are employed and guys like me lose a chance at a career.

    Going back to aliciaaaas first couple sentences, I have a feeling that is the reason for non-disclosure and it's garbage. Austin just needs to hire the best performers and leave race out of it. On a side note, they should, like most departments, increase the difficulty of said process.


    There is more info that has been posted recently on the union website regarding a vote/debate taking place tomorrow involving this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter56 View Post
    No one's score was lowered because of their heritage.
    Tell that to the DOJ.
    Scooter56 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Bourbonstreet View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's the relavancy of the entire process, and the subsequent disparate impact (not enough Hispanics/blacks hired as whites) that is the issue, not individual questions or an overt intent to not hire minorities. Basically, even if the testing is unbiased, if it creates a disparate impact, the process is deemed unjust in the eyes of the DOJ. Similar cases in the past have been found in the wrong/right because they could or could not show that the testing/hiring process was indicative of hiring qualified workers This is where quota systems are employed and guys like me lose a chance at a career.

    Going back to aliciaaaas first couple sentences, I have a feeling that is the reason for non-disclosure and it's garbage. Austin just needs to hire the best performers and leave race out of it. On a side note, they should, like most departments, increase the difficulty of said process.


    There is more info that has been posted recently on the union website regarding a vote/debate taking place tomorrow involving this issue.

    Or go to hiring certified firefighters and emt like a large part of Texas does

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Or go to hiring certified firefighters and emt like a large part of Texas does
    That itself would be more discriminatory. Only a certain subset of people can afford to take classes or even have the flexibility in their work schedule to do so. Even as a white middle class person with a salaried job at an NPO, my work doesn't let people work a flex schedule to accommodate for evening classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Bourbonstreet View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's the relavancy of the entire process, and the subsequent disparate impact (not enough Hispanics/blacks hired as whites) that is the issue, not individual questions or an overt intent to not hire minorities. Basically, even if the testing is unbiased, if it creates a disparate impact, the process is deemed unjust in the eyes of the DOJ. Similar cases in the past have been found in the wrong/right because they could or could not show that the testing/hiring process was indicative of hiring qualified workers This is where quota systems are employed and guys like me lose a chance at a career.
    What's baffling to me is spending $1.4 million on a third-party vendor to create a testing process that didn't document evidence of the process's validity for selecting qualified workers. That would have anticipated this entire lawsuit. If you buy it, the union is saying the evidence is there but that the City wasn't completely forthright with it to serve their own affirmative action agenda. What's more, you can read the email on the union website from the test vendor certifying there was no adverse impact in the 2013 process. You can look at the numbers yourself, and that email was back in August, when the results should have come out in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Bourbonstreet View Post
    Going back to aliciaaaas first couple sentences, I have a feeling that is the reason for non-disclosure and it's garbage. Austin just needs to hire the best performers and leave race out of it. On a side note, they should, like most departments, increase the difficulty of said process.
    Agree with both of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliciaaaaah View Post
    That itself would be more discriminatory. Only a certain subset of people can afford to take classes or even have the flexibility in their work schedule to do so. Even as a white middle class person with a salaried job at an NPO, my work doesn't let people work a flex schedule to accommodate for evening classes.
    That can be said for a lot of jobs where a license or certification is required

    And seems to fly in a lot of tx depts.

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    No it wouldn't be discriminatory. Don't get me wrong it would suck because I dont have those certs but it wouldn't be discriminatory. you have to have a degree to work in thousands of job fields but it doesn't mean they are discriminating. Plus we are talking about discriminating against Hispanics and blacks in this specific case who have just as much or more of an opportunity to attend a CC and get a Fire cert as anyone else. When have you ever heard of a scholarship for being white. I haven't but I personally know people who have scholarships that could only be applied for with the stipulation of being Hispanic/black. I worked in the Veterans office for a couple years certifying GI bills and such and trust me, no matter how poor or what color you are you have an equal opportunity to attend school. As far as work schedule, thats all on you. Its all a matter of how much YOU are willing to put in. Oh yah I am a minority too, I just dont happen to fall in the category of the ones who where "discriminated" against. Im not saying this too you personally Alicia Im just saying in general.

    Semper Fi
    Z
    Last edited by MrInternational; 01-28-2014 at 03:35 PM.
    fire49 likes this.

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    Consent decree approval by City Council postponed until February 27, pending changes and corrections.

    http://austintexas.gov/council_meeti...tion_notes.cfm

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    Of course it was.

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    Maybe the truth finally made its way to them, that there was no adverse impact in 2013.

    http://www.iafflocal975.org/items/20...l%20report.pdf

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    Two tweets almost back to back:::



    #ATXCouncil was set to approve a settlement claim with the DOJ over @austinfiredept hiring practices. That has been postponed until 2/27
    Retweeted by Austin Fire Dept


    21h
    Austin Fire Dept @austinfiredept
    Want to learn more about whether or not a career in the fire service is right for you? Then you should apply for... http://fb.me/2iBAMfBG9
    ExpandReplyRetweetFavorite

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    I can't believe they're trying to push for a consent decree on top of those numbers. 'Buncha bleeding heart baloney.

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    Did you read about how the union's going to try to intervene legally by presenting that evidence and making that argument? They obtained those numbers through a public records request.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter56 View Post
    Did you read about how the union's going to try to intervene legally by presenting that evidence and making that argument? They obtained those numbers through a public records request.
    Yes, and I agree the union should. On the other hand, I wish this business would just get settled so I can stop thinking about it constantly.

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    That "Pass the Torch Academy" looks cool. Kind of a dick move to limit it to ages 18-24 when you can apply up to 35.

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    I know this is messed up and taboo. But can you list yourself as any ethnicity you want? I know, Im part native american, Japanese, and white. I know when I applied for colleges I listed myself as Native American. Could I even consider myself Hispanic, cause thats exactly what I look like. lol. This stuff has always confused me, and I dont think I will ever fully understand affirmative action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neonshoes View Post
    I know this is messed up and taboo. But can you list yourself as any ethnicity you want? I know, Im part native american, Japanese, and white. I know when I applied for colleges I listed myself as Native American. Could I even consider myself Hispanic, cause thats exactly what I look like. lol. This stuff has always confused me, and I dont think I will ever fully understand affirmative action.

    Welcome to the boat

    I think the census now has a term for multi culture

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